Interpretation of the Classic Title - 道德經 - Tao Te Ching

[Brian]

I think flowing hands (at least as I'm understanding it) is saying that the concept of "vitrue" might be sort of a side-effect of aligning with the tao but is neither the focus of the TTC nor a method by which to align with the Tao, if you follow me. Virtue is an aspect of "the practical."

[Aetherous]

"When the Tao is lost, then appears virtue...." - part of TTC 38

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think flowing hands (at least as I'm understanding it) is saying that the concept of "vitrue" might be sort of a side-effect of aligning with the tao but is neither the focus of the TTC nor a method by which to align with the Tao, if you follow me. Virtue is an aspect of "the practical."

 

Character, in the sense of "someone has character," is hugely important on what one can learn of Dao, but I don't want to pick an argument.

 

Personally, I think you can't miss it in the original characters if u read the whole chapter as a chapter and retain the context of preceding chapters. There's a lot more to it, too, however..

 

But people can see whatever they want in the clouds - I'm not tryin' to tell you it's tigers when you see dragons....

[Marblehead]

There is the Way (Virtue) of Tao and there is the way (virtue) of man.

 

The first four lines of Chapter 5, TTC, still stand.

 

Many people confuse Confucian virtue with Taoist Virtue.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

There is the Way (Virtue) of Tao and there is the way (virtue) of man.

 

The first four lines of Chapter 5, TTC, still stand.

 

Many people confuse Confucian virtue with Taoist Virtue.

The TTC talks about both. Why people overlook this I don't understand - as if the sage isnt shown to be someone of immense and pure character. The TTC redefines pure virtue and character, but it is always pointing in three directions at the same time - the virtue and character of Heaven (destiny etc.), the virtue and character of Earth (water,wind, etc.), and the virtue and character of the sage. When you see all three directions together, you also see what their virtues and characters reflect -- The Dao.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Brian]

 

Character, in the sense of "someone has character," is hugely important on what one can learn of Dao, but I don't want to pick an argument.

 

Personally, I think you can't miss it in the original characters if u read the whole chapter as a chapter and retain the context of preceding chapters. There's a lot more to it, too, however..

 

But people can see whatever they want in the clouds - I'm not tryin' to tell you it's tigers when you see dragons....

I was just trying to reiterate in my own words what I think Flowing Hands was saying about the title of the book.

 

Personally, I think character matters and virtue is valuable but I also think pursuits of either for their own sakes are futile at best and are usually counter-productive, in same way that going to church on Sunday and tithing won't get anyone into Heaven. It's the spiritual "heart" that counts...

Edited June 7, 2014 by Brian

[Marblehead]

When you see all three directions together, you also see what their virtues and characters reflect -- The Dao.

I am trying to integrate your "three directions" with:

 

Man follows Earth,

Earth follows Heaven,

Heaven follows Tao,

 

(It's not working smoothly yet.)

[dawei]

I am trying to integrate your "three directions" with:

 

Man follows Earth,

Earth follows Heaven,

Heaven follows Tao,

 

(It's not working smoothly yet.)

 

Your stuck in a text...and stuck in linearity of the unfolding beginning. Don't compare that with the biggest picture of what is going on.

 

I stated in another thread: "The Tao of Heaven is the same as the Tao of humanity".

 

Three Directions of Unity:

The Tao of Heaven is the same as the Tao of Earth is the same as the Tao of Humanity...

[Marblehead]

Thanks Dawei.

 

Yes, I get stuck in the linearity of physical reality all the time. Hehehe. Afterall, that's where I live.

 

I have argued this concept many times before and have been on both sides of the arguement. Apparently my mind has not attained clarity regarding it yet. I'm an old man and still have lots of work to do.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

I am trying to integrate your "three directions" with:

 

Man follows Earth,

Earth follows Heaven,

Heaven follows Tao,

 

(It's not working smoothly yet.)

 

Was it that the last line is missing here.....???

"Tao follows Ziren."

[Marblehead]

 

Was it that the last line is missing here.....???

"Tao follows Ziren."

Yeah, I left it out intentionally because we were talking about three.

 

You know I hold to the concept of "Tao follows Tzujan.)

[ChiDragon]

I am trying to integrate your "three directions" with:

 

Man follows Earth,

Earth follows Heaven,

Heaven follows Tao,

 

(It's not working smoothly yet.)

 

Okay! I think I had gone over this once before. Here is how I integrate the "three directions":

 

Human follows Earth by following the course of Earth. In other words, Man lives on earth by adapting its environment. Human uses the water on earth for drinking and planting the vegetables for food; using the woods to build shelters; using fire for many purposes.

 

Earth follows Heaven by following the course of Heaven. Heaven provides sunshine, rain, wind and thunder which affects the Earth environment. Heaven gives the four seasons on Earth. Humans change their living habits accordingly to the seasons and the geological locations.

 

Heaven follows Tao by following the course of Nature. Whatever happens was the action of Tao which affects Heaven, Earth and Human. Tao is impartial and has no mercy but follow her own nature.

Edited June 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Okay. I had to go back and read HE's first post regarding the three directions. My error. I was reading more into it than he actually said.

 

So I am with Y'all now.

 

(But I'm not gonna' forget that Tao follows Tzujan.)

[dawei]

(But I'm not gonna' forget that Tao follows Tzujan.)

 

The point is.... not only Tao... but earth, heaven, man...

 

Sometimes when we break up the parts we forget they are a unity

[ChiDragon]

Human => Earth => Heaven => Tao

Ofc Tao is Unity. The breakdown is only for easy understand. Without the breakdown, one will not know what are the subdivisions of Tao.


PS....
Those who are familiar with the TTC will not forget that Tao is Unity.

Edited June 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

Those who are familiar with the TTC will not forget that Tao is Unity.

While that is true it is easy to set that aside for personal goals.

[flowing hands]

Going back to the title; if we accept that the Dao is almost 'inert' in its creativity and that it is just the underlining principle to what we have and see materially, we can then say that all things arise from principality and find their interwoven connections with each other as they evolve. Now anything beyond the 'almost inertness' of the Dao is made by humans in description. So we cannot say, hear or know the Dao, we can only feel its principality in our hearts, the rest is created by us. So character and virtue are human descriptions of behavior that are part of a need to describe the things around us and how we feel and interact with others. But they are not the principality or a description of it. So we cannot describe something that is inert in its influence as having any particular character or attribute. But we can see the manifestations of that influence.

Now I use the word 'inert' to describe the Dao because its probably the only one I can think of, of how to describe it, for it is ALMOST impossible to feel that subtle and all encompassing influence.

[ChiDragon]

This thread is not about the Title but about the Tao Te Ching itself. It's not about character and virtue are human descriptions of behavior. This is not what TTC is about. It is about following the principles of Nature which is Tao's way. Those who follow and cultivate Tao's principles are considered to have the virtue(Te) of Tao.

Edited July 6, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Two different concepts being spoken to in those two posts above.

 

ChiDragon is speaking to the principles and Flowing Hands is speaking to their applications by humans.

 

Regretfully I have nothing to add at the moment.

[Stosh]

"Those who follow and cultivate Tao's principles are considered to have the virtue(Te) of Tao"

 

"Tao is impartial and has no mercy but follow her own nature."

 

"Sometimes when we break up the parts we forget they are a unity"

 

So clearly what is being said is that heaven, earth, man, tao , are all one thing without mercy

and they all are following whatever it is nature that they have.

 

That should be very helpful going forward , its right up there with the other groups idea that all life is miserable.

 

Bump

[Marblehead]

Have you been reading nihilistic literature again Stosh?

Edited July 22, 2014 by Marblehead

[GrandmasterP]

Best book I ever read on Nihilism and it's in the form of a novel.

Only a penny from Amazon UK partners.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Travels-Nihilon-Alan-Sillitoe/dp/0491003684/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406072065&sr=1-1&keywords=travels+in+nihilon

 

The single review is unwittingly hilarious.

Put me in mind of the second hand copy of

" Puppy training for Dummies." That Mrs GMP took delivery of via Amazon UK last week.

The book arrived complete with puppy-teeth chew marks all round its edges.

Edited July 22, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

Have you been reading nihilistic literature again Stosh?

No, < If It seems like Im stirring the pot ,

one should notice that all I did was begin to assemble what was already being posited in the thread , nothing more.

or if the assemblage seems to annihilate its elements.. then either the original author didnt know what he was implying with various sentences or the interps are too literal.

 

So I mentioned the all life is suffering thing, what kind of religious inspiration would that be? How would that idea lead to a better life? clearly the word suffering surrounded by that little sentence ,doesnt explain what ideas are being talked about. the sentence is too abbreviate, and therefore it ends up misleading- whether its a perfect linguistic analogue for whatever ?pali? word it was found to contain originally or not.

 

Why pursue? , well , honestly, there are some things Id really like some help detangling , and frankly , either many arent anywhere near the subject , and ones who'd get the issue , get evasive. Yeah its silly to have any hope for a change in the situation , but , I just havent let go just yet.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Best book I ever read on Nihilism and it's in the form of a novel.

Only a penny from Amazon UK partners.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Travels-Nihilon-Alan-Sillitoe/dp/0491003684/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406072065&sr=1-1&keywords=travels+in+nihilon

 

The single review is unwittingly hilarious.

Put me in mind of the second hand copy of

" Puppy training for Dummies." That Mrs GMP took delivery of via Amazon UK last week.

The book arrived complete with puppy-teeth chew marks all round its edges.

BTW -I read and liked that thing you posted about Buddha the other day.

 

Ironic thing about those training books, generally the thing that needs training is the owner.

 

The other book looks interesting but , is it about nihilism?

 

... Ok , The country is run by supposed nihilists

Edited July 23, 2014 by Stosh

[Harmonious Emptiness]

No, < If It seems like Im stirring the pot ,

one should notice that all I did was begin to assemble what was already being posited in the thread , nothing more.

or if the assemblage seems to annihilate its elements.. then either the original author didnt know what he was implying with various sentences or the interps are too literal. [....]

To look at only that chapter and disregard everything else in the text was not intended.

 

Benevolence/ren had a lot to do with recognizing authority and filiality towards elders. This was not the invention of Confucius, to care for the old as we care for the young and call this benevolence.

 

Dao does not recognize hierarchical respects and privileges. Dao is the Great Ultimate.

When the Sage acts from Dao, there are no elders or authorities.

 

Chuang Tzu, in talking about the sage's interaction with emperors says "bring him Dao," showing the character of the sage, who is fully himself and brings his true nature to the emperor like water flows downstream.