Building the foundation and Inner Alchemy

[Vitalii]

opendao said:

 

"But it has to be clear, that in Neidan (in ANY orthodox school), the transformation to Yangshen is possible ONLY using Xian Tian".

There is no Hou Tian practices in Dao, even in the beginning.

 

You are wrong [see explanation below].

 

opendao said:

 

"Building the foundation" is a part of Neidan (=Inner Alchemy)."

"Do you believe it's possible to achieve Ren Xian level using Daoyin and Qigong"?

 

 

Dao Yin, Qigong and Tuna (breathing techniques) are not Neidan, but a part of the "Building the foundation” [筑基].

 

Dao Yin, Qigong and Tuna can help one to improve the circulation of Qi, accumulate usual [Post-Heaven] Qi, make body flexible and strong etc. They are very important for beginners.

 

”Building the foundation” [筑基] - is a part of Daoism, which contains many methods, not only Neidan.

 

At first, a person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi.

 

I want to notice that Qigong is a new word, and many methods, which it contains, were called “Yang Sheng Fa” (养生法) in ancient times.

 

About the importance of all these practices you can read in many Daoist texts, for example Ge Hong "Baopu-zi" (抱朴子) treatises by Wang Chongyang, Zhang San Feng and others...

 

Zhang San Feng said: 凝神调息，调息凝神, 八个字，就是下手工夫 - "Concentrate the Shen [spirit] and regulate and harmonize the breath, regulate and harmonize the breath and concentrate the Shen is the first step to Gong Fu [mastership]."

 

Breathing techniques play a very important role in “methods of building the foundation”. In fact, correct, deep and quiet breathing helps to create us conditions under which the inner balance, harmony and inner peace can be achieved as quickly as possible. If breathing is not regulated, then to achieve these results will be very difficult, and in some cases even impossible. Therefore, this important stage of practice needs to be taken seriously and worked out well.

 

Xin Gong [心功 - heart-mind work] it is not Inner Alchemy, but if a person doesn't practise this methods, then one can't practise Xing Gong (性功) also.

 

Zhang San Feng said: 凝神者，收已清之心，而入其内也 - "Concentrate the Shen [spirit], means to collect one’s purified heart-mind to enter into the inside."

 

Zhang San Feng said: 大道以修心炼性为首 - "The most important task in the Great Dao is to cultivate the heart-mind (Xin) and to refine the Original Nature (Xing)."

 

Zhang San Feng said: 存心者，坚固城郭，不使房屋倒坍，卽筑基也 - "Preserving the heart-mind means, construction and strengthening of the city walls, so houses will not collapse, this is Building the foundation."

Edited November 3, 2013 by Vitalii

[Vitalii]

Zhang San Feng said: 调息须以后天呼吸，寻眞人呼吸之处。古云：后天呼吸起微风，引起眞人呼吸功。

 

"While regulating breathing, one should use Post-Heaven breathing to find a place where a true breathing takes place. In ancient times, there was a saying: “Post-Heaven breathing gives rise to light wind, which leads to the true breathing.”

 

In the "24 Secrets of Elixir Methods" (丹法二十四訣) by Patriarch Lu Yiming, it was said:

第一訣 [修補丹房] 培養後天，堅強色身。培養後天第一端

"Secret number one [Repair and cultivate of elixir house] is:

Nourish Post-Heaven, and, by doing so, strengthen the physical body [which is elixir house].

Nourishing the Post-Heaven is the initial point of departure [in the alchemical art]".

[ChiDragon]

Zhang San Feng said: 凝神调息，调息凝神, 八个字，就是下手工夫 - "Concentrate the Shen [spirit] and regulate and harmonize the breath, regulate and harmonize the breath and concentrate the Shen is the first step to Gong Fu [mastership]."

 

凝神调息，调息凝神, 八个字，就是下手工夫

 

凝神调息: Concentrate to regulate the breathing

调息凝神: Regulate the breathing to concentrate

八个字: These eight characters

就是下手工夫: Is where you begin to put your effort.

 

凝神: to concentrate; concentration

调息: to regulate the breathing

 

工夫: Effort; time and effort

功夫: Martial arts

 

Edited November 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[opendao]

You are wrong [see explanation below].

 

 

 

Dao Yin, Qigong and Tuna (breathing techniques) are not Neidan, but a part of the "Building the foundation” [筑基].

”Building the foundation” [筑基] - is a part of Daoism, which contains many methods, not only Neidan.

 

Really? Can you prove it by any quote of the classic texts, where 筑基 is a part of non-Neidan process? For sure, all other parts of the process have also be there (Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen etc).

 

It looks like you don't understand the meaning of 基. It's not just something like a house foundation or a practice to prepare somebody to something. It is used from very ancient times to highlight exact changes in the body, and these changes are Ming by their nature.

 

Dao Yin, Qigong and Tuna can help one to improve the circulation of Qi, accumulate usual [Post-Heaven] Qi, make body flexible and strong etc. They are very important for beginners.

 

Ok, so you're agree that Dao Yin, Qigong and Tuna are not Neidan, then they are not Ming Gong (by definition). My question was about Ming, but obviously there is nothing in your curriculum that has any similarity to Ming practices. That is why you have a wrong meaning for 筑基...

 

At first, a person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi.

 

It's not true. You just don't know other methods.

 

Zhang San Feng said: 凝神调息，调息凝神, 八个字，就是下手工夫 - "Concentrate the Shen [spirit] and regulate and harmonize the breath, regulate and harmonize the breath and concentrate the Shen is the first step to Gong Fu [mastership]."

 

There is a huge mistake here. You follow the way of translators who have no experience, no true teacher and no lineage. Because your teacher had to explain you how to read classic texts. Because Wu-Liu Pai has a true transmission of Zhang Sanfeng knowledge and we learn his texts, I can just tell you that in the phrase there is nothing about HOW somebody will "regulate and harmonize the breath"! You need to understand that methods are not revealed in classic texts!

 

 

Breathing techniques play a very important role in “methods of building the foundation”. In fact, correct, deep and quiet breathing helps to create us conditions under which the inner balance, harmony and inner peace can be achieved as quickly as possible. If breathing is not regulated, then to achieve these results will be very difficult, and in some cases even impossible. Therefore, this important stage of practice needs to be taken seriously and worked out well.

 

In Neidan all such things as inner balance are created using Neidan's methods, which don't use breathing techniques. Your opinion just means that you've never practised any Ming exercises and don't understand how they work.

 

Zhang San Feng said: 凝神者，收已清之心，而入其内也 - "Concentrate the Shen [spirit], means to collect one’s purified heart-mind to enter into the inside."

 

Zhang San Feng said: 大道以修心炼性为首 - "The most important task in the Great Dao is to cultivate the heart-mind (Xin) and to refine the Original Nature (Xing)."

 

Zhang San Feng said: 存心者，坚固城郭，不使房屋倒坍，卽筑基也 - "Preserving the heart-mind means, construction and strengthening of the city walls, so houses will not collapse, this is Building the foundation."

 

Same problem as before. In the last quote, 存心 ("preserving the heart-mind") is a result of 筑基 ("building the foundation"), but not the practice that can be used.

 

Neidan is a very ancient, but well defined and exact science. The classic texts have been created by supernatural people for their students, not for everybody who wants to start a new sect. That is why there are many levels of protection, there are traps and even some parts are mixed up. Only a true teacher can lead you through all these difficulties! So don't throw out parts you don't understand or if they contradict your previous knowledge. Diligently work, ask and finally you'll be able to make this puzzle The cost of any mistake here is very HIGH!

Edited November 4, 2013 by opendao

[opendao]

Zhang San Feng said: 调息须以后天呼吸，寻眞人呼吸之处。古云：后天呼吸起微风，引起眞人呼吸功。

 

"While regulating breathing, one should use Post-Heaven breathing to find a place where a true breathing takes place. In ancient times, there was a saying: “Post-Heaven breathing gives rise to light wind, which leads to the true breathing.”

 

How to "use Post-Heaven breathing"? Why do you think Zhang Sanfeng meant any Qigong-like exercise?

 

In the "24 Secrets of Elixir Methods" (丹法二十四訣) by Patriarch Lu Yiming, it was said:

第一訣 [修補丹房] 培養後天，堅強色身。培養後天第一端

 

"Secret number one [Repair and cultivate of elixir house] is:

Nourish Post-Heaven, and, by doing so, strengthen the physical body [which is elixir house].

Nourishing the Post-Heaven is the initial point of departure [in the alchemical art]".

 

How to "Nourish Post-Heaven"? Why do you think Lu Yiming meant any Qigong-like exercise?

 

Pre-Heaven can affect Post-Heaven, and that the right way of Neidan, everything else is Qigong that will NEVER give you the same results and same direction.

 

People interested in Dao are eager to find Pre-Heaven methods, because it is one of the most valuable secrets in this world

[Vitalii]

Really? Can you prove it by any quote of the classic texts, where 筑基 is a part of non-Neidan process? For sure, all other parts of the process have also be there (Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen etc).

 

It looks like you don't understand the meaning of 基. It's not just something like a house foundation or a practice to prepare somebody to something. It is used from very ancient times to highlight exact changes in the body, and these changes are Ming by their nature.

 

 

Yes, you are really wrong.

 

When did I say that 筑基 is a part of non-Neidan process? You should pay more attention to wordings.

 

I said: ”Building the foundation” [筑基] - is a part of Daoism, which contains many methods, not only Neidan".

 

Here's the proof that traditional schools use Post-Heaven/Hou Tian work:

 

1. Zhang San Feng said: 凝神调息，调息凝神, 八个字，就是下手工夫 - "Concentrate the Shen [spirit] and regulate and harmonize the breath, regulate and harmonize the breath and concentrate the Shen is the first step to Gong Fu [mastership]."

 

2. Zhang San Feng said: 调息须以后天呼吸，寻眞人呼吸之处。古云：后天呼吸起微风，引起眞人呼吸功。

 

"While regulating breathing, one should use Post-Heaven breathing to find a place where a true breathing takes place. In ancient times, there was a saying: “Post-Heaven breathing gives rise to light wind, which leads to the true breathing.”

 

3. In the "24 Secrets of Elixir Methods" (丹法二十四訣) by Patriarch Lu Yiming, it was said:

第一訣 [修補丹房] 培養後天，堅強色身。培養後天第一端

 

"Secret number one [Repair and cultivate of elixir house] is:

Nourish Post-Heaven, and, by doing so, strengthen the physical body [which is elixir house].

Nourishing the Post-Heaven is the initial point of departure [in the alchemical art]".

 

 

In these texts it was clearly and intelligibly said: regulate and harmonize the breath (调息), use Post-Heaven breathing (后天呼吸) and Nourish Post-Heaven (培養後天). All these methods are Post-Heaven/Hou Tian work, but not Pre-Heaven/Xian Tian.

 

 

 

 

Qigong that will NEVER give you the same results and same direction.

 

When was it ever said that it gives the same results?

 

 

It's not true. You just don't know other methods.

There is a huge mistake here. You follow the way of translators who have no experience, no true teacher and no lineage. Because your teacher had to explain you how to read classic texts. Because Wu-Liu Pai has a true transmission of Zhang Sanfeng knowledge and we learn his texts, I can just tell you that in the phrase there isnothing about HOW somebody will "regulate and harmonize the breath"! You need to understand that methods are not revealed in classic texts!

 

Of course, only you have right experience, right understanding and a true teacher

 

I gave you concrete texts that prove that you are wrong.

 

You say: "There is a huge mistake here", "you don't have right experience", "you just don't know" ...

But actually these words do not have any evidence, and among your statements there is no solid argument proving that you are right, so they have no sense.

 

What will be next? Will you start to talk about the harm of meditation (打坐) and that it has nothing to do with the inner alchemy?

[xor]

There is a huge mistake here. You follow the way of translators who have no experience, no true teacher and no lineage. Because your teacher had to explain you how to read classic texts. Because Wu-Liu Pai has a true transmission of Zhang Sanfeng knowledge and we learn his texts, I can just tell you that in the phrase there is nothing about HOW somebody will "regulate and harmonize the breath"! You need to understand that methods are not revealed in classic texts!

 

You are convinced your school has the right interpretation but here on TTB no school is given preference. If you wish to represent your school here why don't you start your own thread to introduce your school instead of attacking other schools?

[opendao]

When did I say that 筑基 is a part of non-Neidan process? You should pay more attention to wordings.

I said: ”Building the foundation” [筑基] - is a part of Daoism, which contains many methods, not only Neidan".

 

What methods of Daoism, except Neidan, are contained in 筑基? There are none. See below about text quotes.

 

In these texts it was clearly and intelligibly said: regulate and harmonize the breath (调息), use Post-Heaven breathing (后天呼吸) and Nourish Post-Heaven (培養後天). All these methods are Post-Heaven/Hou Tian work, but not Pre-Heaven/Xian Tian.

 

Second time: they are not methods, they are RESULTS.

 

It seems that the only way to get it is to practise. Then it becomes obvious that Zhang Sanfeng couldn't mean what you see in his words...

 

But I'm open to counter arguments if you have any, maybe you can prove that Zhang Sanfeng taught his students how to "breath in, breath out"?

 

 

When was it ever said that it gives the same results?

 

"1. ”Building the foundation” [筑基]:

- basic Qigong,

- basic breathing techniques,

- Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi.

- methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi. "

 

筑基 - is a widely known initial stage of Neidan, where people work with Yuan Jing and they do it using Xian Tian techniques only. In any known orthodox school.

 

But here we see only Post Heaven under 筑基, it lead us to a wrong conclusion about possible results of Post Heaven methods mentioned.

 

 

 

I gave you concrete texts that prove that you are wrong.

 

Not really. Third time: there are no methods in classic texts. Only results and some subtle guidelines for indoor students.

 

 

You say: "There is a huge mistake here", "you don't have right experience", "you just don't know" ...

But actually these words do not have any evidence, and among your statements there is no solid argument proving that you are right, so they have no sense.

 

When somebody tries to prove that 2+2 = 5 and pretend to be a math teacher, then I don't see a necessity of "solid arguments" to just say that "you just don't know", and "there is a huge mistake here".

 

And personally I'm very thankful to people when they say it to me, because it moves me forward. I don't want to repeat my mistakes over and over again, and especially I don't want to mistakenly teach others.

Edited November 4, 2013 by opendao

[opendao]

You are convinced your school has the right interpretation but here on TTB no school is given preference. If you wish to represent your school here why don't you start your own thread to introduce your school instead of attacking other schools?

 

I'm pointing out some issues with the common, not specific to any particular school, theory of Neidan. And it's more fair, because then such problematic issues can be discussed in a proper context. But I'll think how to make it not so harmful for somebody's ego.

[xor]

I'm pointing out some issues with the common, not specific to any particular school, theory of Neidan. And it's more fair, because then such problematic issues can be discussed in a proper context. But I'll think how to make it not so harmful for somebody's ego.

Yes not being insulting is a skill I would very much appreciate. Having just had a similiar school vs. school here I'm going to give you a fair warning that as a warden I'm in a trigger happy mood for recommending such posts to be moved to the pit.

 

edit to add: disagreeing is fine

Edited November 4, 2013 by xor

[opendao]

Yes not being insulting is a skill I would very much appreciate. Having just had a similiar school vs. school here I'm going to give you a fair warning that as a warden I'm in a trigger happy mood for recommending such posts to be moved to the pit.

 

I don't see here any school vs school approach. There is a theory A and theory B. One is about using Houtian methods at Building the Foundation stage. Theory B is against it. I gave my support to theory B, my opponent made his proves to theory A. Any probs here?

 

Anybody is free to join and tell his/her opinion based on personal understanding, texts knowledge, experience etc.

[Vitalii]

Here http://thetaobums.co...til-11-january/ you're selling Qigong techniques under Mastership of Human Immortals (小乘人仙功)

 

2) then you say: "1. ”Building the foundation” [筑基]:

- basic Qigong,

- basic breathing techniques,

- Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi.

- methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi. "

 

Still, where was it said that Qigong gives the same results as Neidan?

 

I repeat to you:

"Building the foundation” [筑基] is a part of Daoism, which contains many methods, not only Neidan.

At first, a person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi."

 

Therefore, at first people learn:

- basic Qigong,

- basic breathing techniques,

- Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi,

- methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi,

 

and then:

- method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian;

- how to make dantian integral and structurised;

- method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi etc.

 

Again, you see something that does not exist and I didn't say.

You only repeat: "There are none" and don't give any solid argument proving that you are right.

 

I gave you concrete texts that prove that you are wrong.

You only say:

"they prove nothing, because you read them as it's good for you, but not the way they were written"

"I don't see a necessity of "solid arguments" to just say that "you just don't know", and "there is a huge mistake here".

 

If you don't want to give solid arguments and do not answer the questions, there is no sense to discuss anything with you.

[xor]

......

Edited November 10, 2013 by xor

[opendao]

Yes that is a good approach. I just gave everyone a fair warning not to get into a fight.

 

ok, got it.

 

I tried my best and sum up it here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32430-neidan-vs-qigong/

[opendao]

At first, a person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi."

Therefore, at first people learn:

- basic Qigong,

- basic breathing techniques,

- Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi,

- methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi,

 

and then:

- method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian;

- how to make dantian integral and structurised;

- method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi etc.

 

sorry, but no, it is written differently:

 

 

1. ”Building the foundation” [筑基]:

- basic Qigong,

- basic breathing techniques,

- Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi.

- methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi.

 

2. Inner Alchemy:

- method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian;

- how to make dantian integral and structurised;

- method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi etc.

 

So there are only Post Heaven methods in 筑基, and very strange things in Inner Alchemy (I can return to them later).

 

That's just what I mentioned: you use Neidan stage and terminology but give only Post-Heaven methods.

Edited November 5, 2013 by opendao

[opendao]

Now we can compare with how Wang Mu describes Building the Foundation stage in Zhang Boduan's school:

 

One should refine oneself using the practice of “laying the foundations,” as only thus can the process of aging be inverted and can one return to youth. This is the difference between the practice of Xing (Nature) and the practice of Ming (Life) at the beginning of the practice. This is also why “laying the foundations” is the beginning of “doing” in the alchemical path, and the texts describe it repeatedly.

 

As we see, no breathing, no Dao Yin, but explicitly said about inverted process (= Xian Tian)

Another quote form him:

 

“Laying the foundations” (zhuji) is the practice performed to replenish the Three Origins (sanyuan, i.e., Original Essence, Original Breath, and Original Spirit) within the body.

 

Again, explicitly about Original = Yuan = Xian Tian

 

I can continue, but I think it's enough. There are a lot in different schools about the first stage and necessity to use reversal Xian Tian methods versus usual Hou Tian practices. In Neidan world it's an axiom. As we see, it's very far from the beginning phases of Qigong schools, even if they insist they have Ming methods (to replenish Yuan Jing) and "genuine" Inner Alchemy.

Edited November 5, 2013 by opendao

[Spotless]

I am actually interested in this topic

Could you guys take this debate private and continue with the original post - I am very interested

[Vitalii]

they are not methods, they are RESULTS

 

Zhang San Feng clearly and intelligibly said: "use Post-Heaven breathing to find a place where a true breathing takes place. Post-Heaven breathing gives rise to light wind, which leads to the true breathing".

 

The word "use" [以] doesn't mean "result". The result is true breathing.

 

Post-Heaven breathing it is not Neidan, but Zhang San Feng said to use it.

Of course, a practitioner needs to know how exactly and what kind of Post-Heaven breathing to use, and not to breath anyhow.

 

Therefore, we can see the proof that traditional schools use Post-Heaven/Hou Tian work.

 

1. ”Building the foundation” [筑基]:

- basic Qigong,

- basic breathing techniques,

- Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi.

- methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi.

 

2. Inner Alchemy:

- method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian;

- how to make dantian integral and structurised;

- method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi etc.

 

So what?

Still, where was it said that Qigong gives the same results as Neidan?

Again, you see something that does not exist and I didn't say.

 

So there are only Post Heaven methods in 筑基, and very strange things in Inner Alchemy (I can return to them later).

 

That's just what I mentioned: you use Neidan stage and terminology but give only Post-Heaven methods.

 

- method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian;

- making dantian integral and structurised;

- method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi

 

All these methods are Neidan, and they are the parts of 匹配阴阳 ["To mate Yang and Yin"], also known as 采小(丹)药 ['To collect a small elixir medicine"].

 

About all these methods you can read in “Complete Method of the Spiritual Jewels” (灵宝毕法, Ling Bao Bi Fa).

 

Therefore, we can see that you are wrong.

 

One should refine oneself using the practice of “laying the foundations,” as only thus can the process of aging be inverted and can one return to youth. This is the difference between the practice of Xing (Nature) and the practice of Ming (Life) at the beginning of the practice. This is also why “laying the foundations” is the beginning of “doing” in the alchemical path, and the texts describe it repeatedly.

 

So what?

Where was it said that breathing or Dao Yin is a not part ”Building the foundation”?

 

“Laying the foundations” (zhuji) is the practice performed to replenish the Three Origins (sanyuan, i.e., Original Essence, Original Breath, and Original Spirit) within the body.

 

So what? I know that the main treasures in Neidan are Tree Origins.

 

I said:

"Building the foundation” [筑基] is a part of Daoism, which contains many methods, not only Neidan.

"At first, a person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi."

 

As we see, no breathing, no Dao Yin, but explicitly said about inverted process.

 

Dao Yin and breathing practices are not Neidan, but you can read about their importance in many Daoist texts, for example Ge Hong "Baopu-zi" (抱朴子).

 

P.S.

In addition, it should be remembered that there are many different Schools with own methodologies and philosophical basis within Daoism itself; and one should not lump everything together, presuming that it all should be the same. For example, something that is correct in the School Zhen Yi may never be used in the School Quan Zhen, and vice versa. Schools of Wang Chongyang and Zhan Boduan, albeit tracing their roots to Grandmaster Lu Dongbin, have had widely different opinions and approaches considering what practice should start with. And there are numbers of such examples. Inasmuch as people are unfamiliar with the history of different Daoist Schools, after getting acknowledged with the position of one School, they tend to believe that everything should be the same in others – practice, philosophical notions about the world, human being, interpretation of different terms etc.

They fanatically start to prove to others their categorical rightness, not understanding that it confirms their own narrow-mindedness only.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Vitalii

[opendao]

Zhang San Feng clearly and intelligibly said: "use Post-Heaven breathing to find a place where a true breathing takes place. Post-Heaven breathing gives rise to light wind, which leads to the true breathing".

 

The word "use" [以] doesn't mean "result". The result is true breathing.

 

Post-Heaven breathing it is not Neidan, but Zhang San Feng said to use it.

 

 

But he didn't said how. It can be used directly (as you do), and indirectly (as it has to be).

Why it is necessary to use Xian Tian methods to use Post-Heaven breath?

Because without reverse process it's impossible to "find a place where a true breathing takes place".

It's axiomatic, it's how Shen-Spirit works, it's how Universe operates, it's described even in books.

 

Still, where was it said that Qigong gives the same results as Neidan?

 

You just don't mention that, but even here you repeat it over and over again:

 

 

"At first, a person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi,

there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi."

 

So you say that using (or by means of) Post-Heaven Qigong you can learn how to "work and feel" (sic!) Pre-Heaven Qi.

But such result can be achieved _only_ by Neidan's Xian Tian practices. And Hou Tian cannot help anybody here by definition.

That's where you obviously make Qigong equal to Neidan. Same about this list:

 

 

- method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian;

- making dantian integral and structurised;

- method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi

 

that's all obvious Qigong experience:

 

- method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian;

 

There are no such thing as "Usual Dantian", because there is no Dan till some level of achievement. But in modern Qigong it's a common thing.

And we see that there are no previous methods, where we can produce Dan. How come, it's a really complicated process, it takes years, but you just

skipped that. In Qigong it's possible, but not in Neidan.

 

- making dantian integral and structurised;

 

Dantian has no form, how it can be structured. If we structure something, then it's a Houtian method by definition.

 

- method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi

 

Pre-Heaven Qi has no form, so it cannot be found or feel. If we feel, then it's about Post-Heaven Shen-Spirit, so again it's not Neidan.

 

 

 

All these methods are Neidan, and they are the parts of 匹配阴阳 ["To mate Yang and Yin"], also known as 采小(丹)药 ['To collect a small elixir medicine"].

 

About all these methods you can read in “Complete Method of the Spiritual Jewels” (灵宝毕法, Ling Bao Bi Fa).

 

Ask your teacher what 小乘安乐延年法四门 means, why it's a Yangshen(=good old Qigong) practice and why these methods are not Neidan practice at all.

And no, even they have no relation to "structirised dantians" and "find original Qi".

 

In addition, it should be remembered that there are many different Schools with own methodologies and philosophical basis within Daoism itself; and one should not lump everything together, presuming that it all should be the same. For example, something that is correct in the School Zhen Yi may never be used in the School Quan Zhen, and vice versa. Schools of Wang Chongyang and Zhan Boduan, albeit tracing their roots to Grandmaster Lu Dongbin, have had widely different opinions and approaches considering what practice should start with. And there are numbers of such examples. Inasmuch as people are unfamiliar with the history of different Daoist Schools, after getting acknowledged with the position of one School, they tend to believe that everything should be the same in others – practice, philosophical notions about the world, human being, interpretation of different terms etc.

They fanatically start to prove to others their categorical rightness, not understanding that it confirms their own narrow-mindedness only.

 

This a modern Qigong approach, where we can mix everything we like and create a new "system". But you forgot one small thing: results of the methods. Dao teaching is not a philosophy, and it's not a religion. Its core is Neidan, and it pre-dates Daoism. And Neidan is a really well defined science. And all realized teachers of the past highlighted the commonality of ancient methods and their results. Even they highlighted the core similarities between Daoism, Buddhism and Confucianism. For sure, they were "categorical rightness fanatics".

But I would prefer their way, and not the modern way, where lack of understanding leads to blindness and tolerance to mistakes.

For sure there are many Daoist schools, that just lost Neidan methods, or transformed them into something different. Many of them still use Neidan terminology,but inside there is no real experience, so that is why we see the same terms, but the meaning is absolutely different. And their followers just don't get any results, described in Neidan classics. That is why all successful researches have been started with exploring Daoism from roots (Yijing, DDJ and so on) and not from modern branches. There are thousand of books, Internet, many schools and sects nowadays, lack of translations, and it's very hard to understand what is wrong and what is right.

And last thing about Building The Foundation. Yes, in different schools a student can start learning with absolutely different things: Qigong, Dao Yin, washing floors, classic Chinese, remembering texts, participating in rituals etc. But in any traditional school nobody will name that Zhuji - Building the Foundation. Because it shows the ignorance and misunderstanding of the basic principles of Neidan.

Btw, speaking about Quanzhen. Quote from your web-site:

 

The first disciple of Wang Chongyang was Ma Danyang, and the first disciple of Liu Haichan – Zhang Boduan. Consequently Zhen Dao School had absorbed methodology of the Northern and Southern schools, and a number of texts written by these Masters are among the main texts of the School.

 

it looks like you follow Ma Danyang lineage. Then for sure you know the curriculum of Zhu Ji in that school. Why it is so absolutely different from what you write here?

Same question about Zhang Boduan: why Zhu Ji in his school has nothing in common with what you write?

Preventing questions, yes, our school has really good relationships with both schools, and our students have possibilities to learn from both of them, so we know answers from inside, not just from books.

[xor]

I thought Vitalii has been consistently saying "qigong" is not neidan. In your school do you start straight from neidan practice?

[ChiDragon]

Neidan is not an one man definition. It is universal.

[effilang]

Neidan is not an one man definition. It is universal.

 

You just dropped a bomb on the thread. hahah - Love you man

 

I'm wondering If I should chime in on the discussion. I do have a lot to say.

hmm.. *I'll make some more pop-corn for now

 

Ok. Ok. Just a little bit. Then I slap myself on the wrist.

 

Neidan is not Qigong and Qigong is not Neidan

 

But does Qigong include Neidan?

Does Neidan include Qigong?

 

Let's see who the real master is now

 

On your marks. Get set! Discuss!

 

*slap

Edited November 5, 2013 by effilang

[Aetherous]

At least personally, I am very much enjoying the presence of opendao...in my opinion, it's rare to see people from schools that make such distinctions in methodology. It's basically in line with various books I've read on neidan from Eva Wong (not saying they're a great source of info).

Unfortunately, it might not provide something immediate to practice...but it can help show people what they'll want to be searching for in certain teachers and schools.

[effilang]

It is simple to resolve the conflicts in this thread.

 

Just explain the following:

 

1. Define Qigong

2. Define Neidan

3. Provide basic instructions on how to practice Neidan.

4. Provide basic instructions on how to practice Qigong.

 

The essence is in the doing, even when the doing requires not doing.

 

So why not dispense with the terminological magnifications and get down to the nitty gritty of the doing and be done with it?

 

Seems more reasonable to me to bite the apple than debate about whether certain biting techniques are classified as biting.

 

Give instructions and the argument will dissolve itself.

Edited November 5, 2013 by effilang

[xor]

From what I've seen actual sharing of methods on a forum even books isn't that common. Indeed might give wrong ideas using just a written format though I guess with talent and experience of the things mentioned in the books one can begin work until a teacher is found.

 

And I agree with effilang, making the clear definitions is the perfect solution.

Edited November 5, 2013 by xor