Building the foundation and Inner Alchemy

[ChiDragon]

 

凝神调息，调息凝神, 八个字，就是下手工夫

 

凝神调息: Concentrate to regulate the breathing

调息凝神: Regulate the breathing to concentrate

八个字: These eight characters

就是下手工夫: Is where you begin to put your effort.

 

凝神: to concentrate; concentration

调息: to regulate the breathing

 

工夫: Effort; time and effort

功夫: Martial arts

 

 

This is the basic concept of Chi Kung The instruction is given in Tuna(吐吶) . The instruction of Tuna(吐吶) should be followed by the ancient Chinese Taoist concept rather than some mistranslation. So, we will get the words from the horse's mouth.

 

 

PS......

This always sounds like discrimination; but, hey! to learn to truth, we must do away with the bias notion in our minds and be Wu Wei about it.

 

PPS.......

Tuna(吐吶) is an universal definition of Chi Kung(氣功). Btw Chi Kung is a modern term for Tuna(吐吶). Chi Kung is the ultimate method of breathing to aid the body to generate the internal energy.

Edited November 5, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Vitalii]

But he didn't said how.

 

Yes, he didn't say how, but he said that a practitioner needs to use Post-Heaven breathing.

I also said: "a practitioner needs to know how exactly and what kind of Post-Heaven breathing to use, and not to breath anyhow".

 

So you say that using (or by means of) Post-Heaven Qigong you can learn how to "work and feel" (sic!) Pre-Heaven Qi.

 

I have never said that by use of Post-Heaven Qigong you can learn how to "work and feel" Pre-Heaven Qi.

 

A person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi. Work with Post-Heaven Qi is essential, as it prepares a practitioner for the next step, videlicet work with Pre-Heaven Qi. However, to feel and work with Pre-Heaven Qi, one needs to employ Inner Alchemy methods, and not Qigong.

 

 

Pre-Heaven Qi has no form, so it cannot be found or feel. If we feel, then it's about Post-Heaven Shen-Spirit, so again it's not Neidan.

 

Neidan is a work with Pre-Heaven Qi.

How you can work with Pre-Heaven Qi if you can't feel it?

 

 

Ask your teacher what 小乘安乐延年法四门 means, why it's a Yangshen(=good old Qigong) practice and why these methods are not Neidan practice at all.

And no, even they have no relation to "structirised dantians" and "find original Qi".

 

 

小乘安乐延年法四门 is a part of Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) by Immortal Zhonglí Quan.

Zhonglí Quan in 小乘安乐延年法四门 said clearly and intelligibly about: work with Pre-Heaven Qi; to cultivate elixir, nourish immortal embrione; small heaven circulation etc. All these methods are Neidan.

Zhonglí Quan clearly and intelligibly said that 小乘安乐延年法四门 contains methods that let one achieve Human Immortal (人仙).

Ling Bao Bi Fa is the text of Inner Alchemy, but not of Qigong.

 

Opendao, you always invent something that does not exist and I didn't say, and when somebody asks you to explain something or give evidence for your arguments, you never give a reasonable answer. I see no sense to discuss these things with you.

[opendao]

I thought Vitalii has been consistently saying "qigong" is not neidan. In your school do you start straight from neidan practice?

 

It depends. But when we describe our Neidan curriculum, we have Neidan exercises there, but Vitalii lists only Qigong, and make very absurd theories around that. There is just one way to solve that: agree that it is some Qigong system and stop using Neidan terminology. Especially, when there is no lineage and other necessary attributes of the Neidan school.

 

I understand but it's confusing when they're talking about methods and not even give the instructions of the method.

 

I talk about Neidan theory, and even declare that there are no Neidan methods in classic books. So no, no methods will be discussed by me, except from the basic theory point of view. It's just prohibited in Neidan.

 

Just explain the following:

 

1. Define Qigong

2. Define Neidan

3. Provide basic instructions on how to practice Neidan.

4. Provide basic instructions on how to practice Qigong.

 

Who will be responsible for all health problems and bad fate after people will start trying all this?

 

And there is no conflict, there is misunderstanding. I don't try to convince somebody that "our methods are the best", and I even couldn't start to talk about our school and methods yet . I try to make people think, ask and compare, so they will be able to concisely choose what to learn. Because that's what my Teacher has done and what really helped many many people, including myself.

 

 

I guess with talent and experience of the things mentioned in the books one can begin work until a teacher is found.

 

Not with Neidan. Even with Qigong it's really easy to go off the track and got real problems without a teacher.

 

 

Neidan is a work with Pre-Heaven Qi.

How you can work with Pre-Heaven Qi if you can't feel it?

 

Vitalii, just this phrase is enough to understand what you can't understand. I can't help with that.

 

 

小乘安乐延年法四门 is a part of Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) by Immortal Zhonglí Quan.

Zhonglí Quan in 小乘安乐延年法四门 said clearly and intelligibly about: work with Pre-Heaven Qi; to cultivate elixir, nourish immortal embrione; small heaven circulation etc. All these methods are Neidan.

Zhonglí Quan clearly and intelligibly said that 小乘安乐延年法四门 contains methods that let one achieve Human Immortal (人仙).

Ling Bao Bi Fa is the text of Inner Alchemy, but not of Qigong.

 

The text and theory are Neidan, but the instructions are not. They are for people who wants to practice by books

 

10 years ago I also thought that I understand Ling Bao Bi Fa and I practised according to my understanding. I was able to understand that it's wrong and stop.

Edited November 6, 2013 by opendao

[opendao]

At least personally, I am very much enjoying the presence of opendao...in my opinion, it's rare to see people from schools that make such distinctions in methodology. It's basically in line with various books I've read on neidan from Eva Wong (not saying they're a great source of info).

 

Unfortunately, it might not provide something immediate to practice...but it can help show people what they'll want to be searching for in certain teachers and schools.

 

Eva Wong translated some valuable books from Wu-Liu Pai, like Huimingjing. In my opinion, Wu-Liu Pai's books are the most clear to understand by modern readers, because they explicitly cover many "hard" questions. And you are right, all Neidan books are intended to give a direction where to find a teacher, what to ask, how to learn etc, but they are not intended to give out practical methods.

Edited November 6, 2013 by opendao

[ChiDragon]

These are the universal definitions:

Pre-Heaven breathing is the umbilical breathing of a fetus in the mother womb.
Post-Heaven breathing is using the lungs after birth.

[dawei]

Eva Wong translated some valuable books from Wu-Liu Pai, like Huimingjing. In my opinion, Wu-Liu Pai's books are the most clear to understand by modern readers, because they explicitly cover many "hard" questions. And you are right, all Neidan books are intended to give a direction where to find a teacher, what to ask, how to learn etc, but they are not intended to give out practical methods.

 

Here is a paper which some might like to read:

 

http://www.charleschace.com/pdfs/Hui_Ming_Jing-Nicholson.pdf

[Vitalii]

Here is a paper which some might like to read:

 

http://www.charleschace.com/pdfs/Hui_Ming_Jing-Nicholson.pdf

 

 

Good texts.

These texts say about breathing regulation, refining heart-mind, seeking and feeling Qi, and that meditation is the main thing in the Inner Alchemy.

All this completely coincides with what I said before.

[effilang]

I'm still waiting for someone to answer these 4 questions in one post:

 

1. Define Qigong

2. Define Neidan

3. Provide a basic theorertical & practical explanation of what the practice of Neidan involves.

4. Provide a basic theorertical & practical explanation of what the practice of Qigong involves.

5. Explain whether Qigong is included in Neidan.

6. Explain whether Neidan is included in QIgong.

 

The person who answers these is the one who knows what they are talking about IMHO.

Edited November 6, 2013 by effilang

[Vitalii]

Qigong

Qigong practice is designed for the body recovery, and it works out the energy system, breathing and consciousness, which in turn prepares a person to practice a higher level.

Qigong is a complex of exercises for work with the vital force, the purpose of which is to restore the normal circulation of Qi in the body, accumulate an additional amount of it and, as a result, make the human body more healthy and harmonious on all levels – physical (body) , emotional (emotions, feelings) and mental (thoughts).

 

Neidan

Inner Alchemy (内丹 – Neidan) is a set of higher level methods, which are based on meditative practices (打坐 – Dazuo) suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo). Their purpose is the spiritual development of a person that helps to understand oneself.
Methods of Inner Alchemy will help to return to the roots, to touch original (“divine”) nature and direct own knowledge to understanding and connection with the truth (with Dao).

___________________

 

The fundamental difference between Neidan and Qigong is that the usual methods of Qigong can work with usual kinds of energy, heal the body, balance the circulation of energy and achieve control over your feelings and emotions, whereas Inner Alchemy methods allow you to work not only with usual energy and ordinary consciousness, but with the original energy and original spirit.

[opendao]

Good texts.

These texts say about breathing regulation, refining heart-mind, seeking and feeling Qi, and that meditation is the main thing in the Inner Alchemy.

All this completely coincides with what I said before.

 

Again, I know that you have no direct transmission about Liu Huayang text, but where you found anything about "breathing regulation" and "refining heart-mind" and "meditation"? In Chinese text, of course.

 

But honestly you can save your time, because nowhere in Wu-Liu Pai texts such absurd things cannot be said, and it is explicitly said everywhere that breathing, Dao Yin, qigong, meditation, fasting etc are wrong methods in Neidan. Later I will translate and publish such sayings by the current lineage holder, so it won't be possible to fool people this way.

[opendao]

 

 

Neidan

Inner Alchemy (内丹 – Neidan) is a set of higher level methods, which are based on meditative practices (打坐 – Dazuo) suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo).

 

Absolutely wrong and again just show a total lack of traditional education.

 

Who knows the quotes from Neidan texts that are explicitly against Dazuo as the basis of Neidan?

 

Again there is no Ming practices here, because Vitalii thinks they are the same as Qigong

[effilang]

Opendao, for the sake of your name

 

Would you tell me if any of the phases of practising Neidan include Qigong and how do you define Qigong based on your education?

 

Thanks

[opendao]

Let's see now what realized teachers think about "meditative practices (打坐)". In Zhen Dao Pai, created by Vitalii, it is declared to be Neidan. Also we remember, that Zhen Dao Pai even claims a lineage from Zhan Boduan

 

So now what Zhan Boduan writes about "sitting practices" 打坐:

 

 

不 可 枯 坐 灰 心

 

[students] must not dully sit, ashing [their] hearts.

 

 

As we see, it's absolutely opposite! "Stupid sitting" - that's what Neidan thinks about "meditation" of any kind!

 

 

 

Would you tell me if any of the phases of practising Neidan include Qigong and how do you define Qigong based on your education?

 

I'm preparing some other quotes from different teachers about what Neidan is and what it is not. Then I'll cover this good question as well.

[xor]

So opendao in your school both qigong and meditation are considered bad or harmful for neidan? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Antares]

As we see, it's absolutely opposite! "Stupid sitting" - that's what Neidan thinks about "meditation" of any kind!

 

Can't argue with you but in the quote above it is not said that any meditation is stupid. It's may be only words against DULL seating akin to diluted Chan' meditations. I do not support Vitalii's point of view but say that many other authentic traditions use "meditations". In Dzogchen or authentic Yoga there are loads of alchemical meditations. "Regulating the mind" is result but that does not mean it could not be used as "technique". It is used in many Asian traditions and could be used in Neidan. The problem is that there are very little amount of authentic Taoist teachers and we can't be sure that you have one. That's good that you say your opinion here but we should know who is your teacher and if he is the real master. I do not say who is right in your arguments but may be both of you mistake in something. We can only believe that you have real transmission. There is another Taoist teacher here on the TTB and he teaches seated meditation. Your opinion is based on interpretation of your school.

[effilang]

It seems to me opendao, that rather than condemning meditation, similarly to many other schools which practice authentic meditation, the author is condemning a specific type of meditation; one in which the disciple sits idly without the proper internal focus required to initiate the conversion of Jing to Qi in the Xia Dantien.

 

If the Shen from the Heart Fire is not directed downwards through Yi in order to freeze the spirit within the Xia Dantien and arouse the Kidney and Urinary Bladder Fire by merging them, then the body cannot create enough heat, which will not bring about the Zhen Huo required to transform the JING essences into QI.

 

Without this there can be no alchemy in the Xia Dantien.

 

The Shen and the heat from the Heart Fire have to be directed through Yi and/or through focusing the eyes on the Xia Dantien as the Shen manifests through the eyes, to which it is connected, but is rooted in the heart and can thus direct the internal heat of the Heart Fire where it is needed in the body.

 

People who sit "dully" or "idly" do not know these things and may sit aimlessly. I know such people who even after decades have no internal skill or achievement whatsoever. Yet if you know what you are doing, you can fill the Xia Dantien with Qi until it overflows and triggers the Dai Mai and the movement of Qi manifests within the Xia Dantien signaling it's maturity to enter the coccyx and break the three passes to the Shang Dantien, and manifest the white light of Qi in the center of the brain to confirm this, all in under 3 months or 2 months if you practice diligently for hours every day together with celibacy.

 

But all that is achieved through meditation. You can do it lying, sitting or walking.

However, if the breath is not regulated, the heart will be stirred and an uneasy heart cannot effectively direct the Shen through Yi into the Xia Dantien.

 

In these beginning phases of alchemy as well as others the breath will be used to sedate the heart, pacify the lungs and thus restrain the po through controlling the lungs in which they reside, in so doing the postnatal emotions can be controlled leading to the Qing state of mind required to establish stronger connections to the prenatal energies needed in the later alchemical stages when establishing conscious connections to Wuji. I say conscious, because the Eternal Soul is always connected to the Wuji, even while in the body of a disciple who is energetically or alchemically dormant.

 

The breath can be used to lead the Qi together with the mind for greater efficacy while the mind and Qi are still separated. When the Qi and Mind unite, that's a different matter. Then postnatal breath is not required.

 

But before that. The breath must be regulated through the different fire times, which require careful applications of forceful fire, no fire and gentle fire, all in respect to the phase of alchemy the disciple is in. If you neglect controlling the breath in Neidan, when it needs to be controlled you will sabotage your results.

 

You say that the breath is not used in Neidan, but I think that this is false. Whether you pick up a tea-cup and fill it with tea or leave it empty, you are still using the tea-cup.

 

You cannot practice Neidan solely by holding the breath in as much as you can by solely inhaling or solely exhaling. Whether the mechanism of the breath is engaged or not or how it is engaged, in what place and which with force, will define whether you can support the phases of alchemy within the body.

 

Every process of the body and mind takes part in Neidan, whether actively or inactively and when they do not it is because they have either dissolved, united or transformed into something else, with a different function.

 

IME, meditation is definitely part of Neidan. Perhaps not all meditations qualify as such, but the right type are definitely part of Neidan.

 

If you claim to practise without meditating or using the breath. I am more than open to what you have to say, providing that you actually explain it from your own experience and internal processes rather than solely from quotes. I am always open to new views : )

 

As Laozi said to Confucius: "The men of whom you speak are long since dead and their bones are turned to ashes in their graves."

 

Let us hear it from those which are still breathing and can speak of their own bodies and not the bodies of others.

Edited November 6, 2013 by effilang

[ChiDragon]

不 可 枯 坐 灰 心
Do not just dully sit and get discouraged or gave up.

[Vitalii]

Dully sitting is not a true meditation [打坐 - Da zuo], so practitioners need to avoid it.

 

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 said about a true Da zuo [真坐] and a false Da zuo [假坐].

 

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 and 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 said about meditation [打坐] and that meditation is a very important practice.

 

Zhan San Feng in 张三丰祖师参禅歌 said about meditation [打坐] and that meditation is a very important practice.

 

Immortal Zhonglí Quan in Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) said about meditation and that meditation is a very important practice.

 

Sima Chengzhen in 坐忘論 said about meditation and that meditation is a very important practice.

 

http://www.charlesch...g-Nicholson.pdf - These texts say about meditation and that meditation is the main thing in the Inner Alchemy.

[Kasuku]

u know all these arguments about inner alchemy, who has really lived, and died to completely kill the post-heaven mind of ego shi shen, who as reached enlightenment and perfected their xing!

 

All these arguments, thoughts, and emotions hinder development...

sages of old shut their mouths and held there tongue not speaking, nor hearing, only dwelling in Dao, silently purifying there minds, and restoring their mind...

[opendao]

u know all these arguments about inner alchemy, who has really lived, and died to completely kill the post-heaven mind of ego shi shen, who as reached enlightenment and perfected their xing!

 

All these arguments, thoughts, and emotions hinder development...

sages of old shut their mouths and held there tongue not speaking, nor hearing, only dwelling in Dao, silently purifying there minds, and restoring their mind...

 

Have you met any of them? I doubt that. Just because almost all realized people in Neidan tradition has been speaking loudly and left a lot for the next generations. Maybe it's better to read something about it first?

Edited November 7, 2013 by opendao

[opendao]

Haha just because a teacher of the old says that meditation is unnecessary doesn't mean we should follow what he say. Want to know a secret, arhats used the means of meditation to get rid of outflows and guess what: they can live for as long as they want and choose the time they want to die. Now that should be some encouragement for you guys who are at dismay about what method to use. Take the method you're using and do it one-pointedly.

 

Have you ever heard about Chan Buddhist practices that lead to Arhat state? Maybe you're even aware what Liu Huayang, who was Chan monk, thought about it? Have you read what 6th patriarch said about "sitting and forgetting"? If yes, then for sure you can continue to do whatever you know and don't worry about results

[opendao]

Dully sitting is not a true meditation [打坐 - Da zuo], so practitioners need to avoid it.

 

So what is a true meditation then, if you define it as "suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence". That is exactly what is considered as "dully sitting" by Zhang Boduan in his books (not only quote I made).

 

You mix different practices:

 

1) 打坐 as a method to calm down the heart. It exists, but even you don't think it's a part of Neidan. In Quanzhen this method is used widely, because the school had (and have) too many students. It's a good method to change the temper. But there are a lot of problems with that. Qui Chuji:

 

As for Buddhist monks who enter into samadhi and die while seated in meditation, and Taoists who enter into stillness and thus send out yin spirits, these are ghosts of pure vacuity and are not pure yang immortals. They are distantly faint with no appearance and in the end have no place to go to. Why do people who study [the way to immortality] make these mistakes? They especially do not understand that pure yang qi is born after the essense is refined and made into elixir. After you refine the qi and complete the Spirit, the Realized Numinous Divine Immortal transcends the ordinary and enters into sacredness. You abandon your shell and ascend the immortality, and this is called "transcendingand escaping". This is the method of divine immortals that has not changed for a hundred million years!

 

2) sitting practices of the higher stages (years against the wall etc). They have nothing in common with Da zuo as well, they have their own names etc.

 

But as you see Qui Chuji warns about absence of Ming methods. Where is Ming in your Neidan, ah? If you (by mistake) think that Da Zuo is Ming, then what is Xing?

 

 

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 said about a true Da zuo [真坐] and a false Da zuo [假坐]

 

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 and 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 said about meditation [打坐] and that meditation is a very important practice.

 

yep, for people who have no fate to learn Neidan. LOL

 

But even Wang Chungyang says explicitly about how to practice it, and it is far from yours "sitting in a motionless calm and silence". It's not even about sitting.

 

Zhan San Feng in 张三丰祖师参禅歌 said about meditation [打坐] and that meditation is a very important practice.

 

Immortal Zhonglí Quan in Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) said about meditation and that meditation is a very important practice.

 

Sima Chengzhen in 坐忘論 said about meditation and that meditation is a very important practice.

 

http://www.charlesch...g-Nicholson.pdf - These texts say about meditation and that meditation is the main thing in the Inner Alchemy.

 

Nope. Even more, most of these texts have warnings against "sitting and forgetting".

 

And please answer about why your Zhu Ji is so different from both Ma Yu and Zhang Boduan school, that you're declaring your lineage from. People from there are waiting in impatience

[opendao]

These are the universal definitions:

 

Pre-Heaven breathing is the umbilical breathing of a fetus in the mother womb.

Post-Heaven breathing is using the lungs after birth.

 

 

 

Universal for who? For Chinese tradition there is Yijing, where these terms are defined without any relation to breathing.

[opendao]

Would you tell me if any of the phases of practising Neidan include Qigong

 

no, not at all

 

and how do you define Qigong based on your education?

 

I've done it in another thread:

 

Qigong works with Post-Heaven Jing, Qi and Shen.

 

Qigong methods are well known: standing and sitting meditation, dynamic exercises, Dao Yin, various work with imagination.

[opendao]

Can't argue with you but in the quote above it is not said that any meditation is stupid. It's may be only words against DULL seating akin to diluted Chan' meditations. I do not support Vitalii's point of view but say that many other authentic traditions use "meditations". In Dzogchen or authentic Yoga there are loads of alchemical meditations. "Regulating the mind" is result but that does not mean it could not be used as "technique". It is used in many Asian traditions and could be used in Neidan. The problem is that there are very little amount of authentic Taoist teachers and we can't be sure that you have one. That's good that you say your opinion here but we should know who is your teacher and if he is the real master. I do not say who is right in your arguments but may be both of you mistake in something. We can only believe that you have real transmission. There is another Taoist teacher here on the TTB and he teaches seated meditation. Your opinion is based on interpretation of your school.

 

You ask right questions. I'm writing based on the interpretation of my teacher, who is an indoor student in Wu-Liu Pai school. If you know the history of the school, then it's clear that this school preserves the knowledge from many different branches, including Quanzhen (Longmen), school of Zhan Sanfeng and even from Chan Buddhism. The school is very well known in China, the patriarch is alive and came to Russia in 2008 so it was possible to reveal any doubts. Next, I'm writing also based on my own experience and interpretation, so for sure I can make mistakes. And I would really admire if somebody can point them, but it has to be based on the tradition and not on subjective interpretation, that has nothing behind it (no teacher, no school, no lineage, no knowledge).

Edited November 7, 2013 by opendao