Building the foundation and Inner Alchemy

[opendao]

 

Opendao, you always invent something that does not exist and I didn't say.

 

I see no sense to discuss with you.

 

Again I received no proves

[Antares]

Neidan

Inner Alchemy (内丹 – Neidan) is a set of higher level methods, which are based on meditative practices (打坐 – Dazuo) suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo). Their purpose is the spiritual development of a person that helps to understand oneself.

 

Ah, yeah, I missed this one. I can not agree that' right. I am looking forward to hear about ming. I heard it correlates with channels - "water" which feeds energy in the body?

 

Thanks.

[Kasuku]

ming is your battery (yuan chi) - when u loose it you die - xing always exists throughout reincarnations - essential nature, the original self, yuan shen,

every sect has different methods to restore ming.. all authentic sects lead to celestial immortality/rainbowbody, golden immortals

[Antares]

Is it the same what Kundalini within the body is?

[opendao]

Is it the same what Kundalini within the body is?

 

can you provide any good definition of Kundalini?

[Antares]

[Antares]

Vitalii posted:

 

 

Dao Yin, Qigong and Tuna (breathing techniques) are not Neidan, but a part of the "Building the foundation” [筑基].

 

Dao Yin, Qigong and Tuna can help one to improve the circulation of Qi, accumulate usual [Post-Heaven] Qi, make body flexible and strong etc. They are very important for beginners.

 

”Building the foundation” [筑基] - is a part of Daoism, which contains many methods, not only Neidan.

 

At first, a person needs to learn how to work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with [Pre-Heaven] Qi.

I want to notice that Qigong is a new word, and many methods, which it contains, were called “Yang Sheng Fa” (养生法) in ancient times.

[Vitalii]

 

 

Schools of Wang Chongyang and Zhan Boduan, albeit tracing their roots to Grandmaster Lu Dongbin, have had widely different opinions and approaches considering what practice should start with.

[Antares]

Okey, but where Ming practice in your school? What is the name of this practice? Is it mentioned in any text? Just wonder.

[Vitalii]

- method of transformation from usual dantian into alchemical dantian;

- making dantian integral and structurised;

- method, which can help to find and feel original [Pre-Heaven] Qi

 

All these methods are Neidan, and they are the parts of 匹配阴阳 ["To mate Yang and Yin"], also known as 采小(丹)药 ['To collect a small elixir medicine"].

 

About all these methods you can read in “Complete Method of the Spiritual Jewels” (灵宝毕法, Ling Bao Bi Fa).

[宁]

opendao 道友 你师父是怎么说的，能否联系他呢。若说师父著名，给我说下名字，俺自己百度去，看起来你也忙得很。

[宁]

Interesting thing is that Wu Lui Pai derives from Dragon Gate Taoism, which has Wang Liping as its transmitter.

 

For that student who is in China,

http://dragongate-academy.org/

Wang Liping is having a session next month.

 

3600$ is roughly 22 000 RMB, that's an astronomical amount for a 'student in China'; teachers are paid 2400-3000 RMB a month. A five star hotel would be 5-600 RMB/day, all inclusive, which I'm sure is alot less than what they get. Robbing the bank aren't we. Even if I had the money I'd prolly still be too cheap to go for it, so maybe it's me.

[宁]

Asked some of my Chinese fellows how do they feel about the price, you should have seen their faces LOL

[opendao]

Schools of Wang Chongyang and Zhan Boduan, albeit tracing their roots to Grandmaster Lu Dongbin, have had widely different opinions and approaches considering what practice should start with.

 

They have the same idea of Ming first, then Xing, because it cannot be done any other way. In northern schools from Wang Chongyang the initial preparatory method is Xin (heart). Da Zuo is a part of this method. But also I need to note that some Quanzhen schools simply haven't received Ming method from Wang Chongyang. To know all that it's very helpful to know the history and be initiated into any of northern schools with Ming method. Btw, Ming Gong is different in different Quanzhen branches, but leads to the same results and based on the same principles.

[Vitalii]

 

"The Nanzong doctrines can be summed up in the phrase "first the vital force [Ming], then the inner nature [Xing]".

Emphasis lies first on the practice of increasing the vital force through methods of self-cultivation, and then on meditation to achieve enlightenment.

On the other hand, Quanzhen begins with meditation [Xing] and claims that the life-force [Ming] will be reinforced naturally.

 

These theoretical distinctions, however, are not always followed by individual masters or schools."

____________________

 

"The encyclopedia of Taoism" by Fabrizio Pregadio

 

 

P.S.

see also http://thetaobums.com/topic/32514-mind-work-and-meditation-in-daoism/

[ChiDragon]

Xing Ming(性命) means life. I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF XING GONG(性功) OR MING GONG(命功) in any Chinese Classics.

[Vitalii]

 

"With reference to the practice, different subtraditions within Neidan are sometimes distinguished according to the priority that they give to either Xing or Ming. In the Northern Lineage, in particular, the practice begins with the work on Xing. In the Southern Lineage, instead, the first stage of the practice gives emphasis to Ming above Xing; the second one, to Xing above Ming."

__________

Fabrizio Pregadio

[ChiDragon]

Xing Ming(性命) means life. I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF XING GONG(性功) OR MING GONG(命功) in any Chinese Classics.

 

I had investigated about XING GONG(性功) and MING GONG(命功). These two esoteric terms were uses by Taoist for the descriptions of the characteristic of an individual who has the highest physical capacity to practice martial arts and mental ability for the intuition of understanding the principles of martial arts. Those people will have a greater opportunity to meet or be selected by a good teacher. Hence, XING GONG(性功) and MING GONG(命功) are not something to be acquired by cultivation.

 

 

Ref: XING GONG(性功) and MING GONG(命功)

Edited November 12, 2013 by ChiDragon

[opendao]

 

I had investigated about XING GONG(性功) and MING GONG(命功). These two esoteric terms were uses by Taoist for the descriptions of the characteristic of an individual who has the highest physical capacity to practice martial arts and mental ability for the intuition of understanding the principles of martial arts. Those people will have a greater opportunity to meet or be selected by a good teacher. Hence, XING GONG(性功) and MING GONG(命功) are not something to be acquired by cultivation.

 

LOL. Your researches are very profound. Can 功 be something else that a work that somebody can done?

 

"With reference to the practice, different subtraditions within Neidan are sometimes distinguished according to the priority that they give to either Xing or Ming. In the Northern Lineage, in particular, the practice begins with the work on Xing. In the Southern Lineage, instead, the first stage of the practice gives emphasis to Ming above Xing; the second one, to Xing above Ming."

__________

Fabrizio Pregadio

 

Fabrizio Pregadio is a good translator and scholar. I don't recall that he is initiated into any Northern Neidan schools though.

I explained my teacher's point of view, I believe he knows a little bit better.

 

Also, the main theoretical problem with "Xing first" approach is that it's impossible to finish the practice by Ming work. See jing-qi-shen stages to understand why. If you understand that, then you have to say, that in some Northern schools it's Xing-Ming-Xing, and in other - it's just Xing with no Ming (very often case).

[ChiDragon]

LOL. Your researches are very profound. Can 功 be something else that a work that somebody can done?

 

Please don't let the character 功 throw you off. I think what it is doing it to you. One misconception will thrown you off ten thousand miles away. Please remember I did use the word "esoteric" which can be mean something out of this world by a Taoist that a mortal would not comprehend.

[宁]

Yes Chidragon, many of the mortals on this very forum have little idea about what you're speaking of most of the time.

Can't say I blame them.

 

Why do you think the term 性命双修 is so popular in the neidan world. Simply because there are traditions that emphasize 性 over 命 and viceversa. A classic example for the former would be 佛教 , the latter, well... it seems to be what you're doing or mean to do most of the time, cultivating life force. While each type has it's own merits, they work best in concert.

 

Funny thing, 性 practices tend to be public and free teachings, notwithstanding the fact that they yield the most precious of cultivation fruits: wisdom and enlightenment.

Edited November 13, 2013 by 宁

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Speaking of Xing and Ming, I'd like to submit my translation of Dao De Jing, Chapter 10, which I believe is a manual on cultivating Ming. Mind you, I am rather convinced that Ming is all but synonymous with the 7 po spirits, while Xing is all but synonymous with the 3 hun spirits.

 

The following are my own observations as a result of my independent studies:

 

Some things to note about Chapter 10 and its relation to the po spirits:

 

- It starts off referring to the po spirit

- The po spirit is connected to the lungs which are responsible for intuition. This chapter is largely about intuition

- "Heaven's gate opens and closes" is said by Heshang Gong to refer to the nostrils with breathing. One can see how this also refers to the lungs, opening and closing, expanding and contracting. This line may also refer to breathing life into the lungs and the po spirits which are our 7 earthly spirits, contrasted to our 3 heavenly hun spirits

- When one fills the lungs with oxygen, there is downward pressure of the cooled blood from the heart to the spleen which replenishes the kidneys, which fires the triple burner. Blood is sent (upwards) to the lungs from the liver.

- The lungs/po spirit have downward (earth spirit) movement. The liver/hun has upward (heavenly spirit) movement.

- The lungs cool the blood, and can relax the heart therapeutically. If "the heart is the emperor of the organs," the lungs are the sages wise counsel to him.

- When life is cherished in this way, the hun spirits are nourished as the liver is healed. Thus, if po is Ming, and hun is Xing, this is to cultivate Ming by which Xing is naturally fulfilled as a matter of course, a la, wu wei approach of non-action applied to Xing.
[- Embryonic breathing is when the breathing has basically stopped and one returns to processing life in the stomach]

 

Consider the above with the following saying from Ma Yu (Ma Danyang) :

"If people can master the path of purity and serenity, that is most excellent. Therefore scripture says, "If people can always be pure and serene, heaven and earth will resort to them."
This "heaven and earth" does not mean the external sky and ground. It refers to the heaven and earth in the body.
Above the solar plexus is called heaven, below the solar plexus is called earth. If the energy of heaven descends and the vessel of earth opens, so that there is harmony above and below, then vitality and energy spontaneously stabilize."

 

 

Now, my translation and commentary:

 

Dao De Jing, Chapter 10

Supporting your fortress of po (魄) embrace the One

Can you do this without letting it flee like a bird from a beast?

Monopolize your chi, sending softness

(Monopolize, take sole posession, also has an image of spinning thread in the character)

Can you be like a newborn child?

(innocence, softness, think of how a newborn child loves and laughs so easily)

Wash, and eliminate, your profound introspections

Can you be without this disease?

Loving the less fortunate, govern the nation

(Heshang Gong says that “the nation,” in the Dao De Jing, is a metaphorical signifier of the body. So this would say to pay attention to and send chi to the small things that one notices, weaknesses in their health. This might also apply to intuitive attentiveness)

Can you do this without academic knowledge?

 

Heaven’s gate opens and closes

(Heshang Gong says this refers to the nose while breathing

[meant to add: the relation to the lungs opening and closing, expanding and contracting, can also be seen here. The Heaven trigram (I Ching) and lungs are both metal element. Likely a major influence of, or shared influences from, embryonic breathing practices])

Can your actions be soft?

(perhaps referring to the breath being quiet and relaxed)

Clearly understanding how all sides have come together

Can you do this without academic knowledge?

(Intuition, a function of harmonious po spirit, is able to spontaneously “put two and two together,” at a speed much faster than logic and academic knowledge, to understand what is happening)

 

Create this, nurture this,

(embracing the One, nurturing the po spirit with chi “like spinning thread”)

Create without being possessive

Doing without the assumption of a particular outcome

Leading yet not ruling

(Wu wei, “soft” approach to chi)

 

This is Mysterious De

 

 

 

 

[edit in bold]

Edited November 13, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[opendao]

Why do you think the term 性命双修 is so popular in the neidan world. Simply because there are traditions that emphasize 性 over 命 and viceversa. A classic example for the former would be 佛教 , the latter, well... it seems to be what you're doing or mean to do most of the time, cultivating life force. While each type has it's own merits, they work best in concert.

 

Sure, the concert all the time, from start to finish, until Xing and Ming become one.

 

Funny thing, 性 practices tend to be public and free teachings, notwithstanding the fact that they yield the most precious of cultivation fruits: wisdom and enlightenment.

 

Yes, that is why it is said that "Xing can be understood by mind". What people don't realize is that Xing practices are different, when there are Ming practices in place. When Ming is restored, then all Xing practices become much easier, because there is a force to rely on.

[宁]

Yes, that is why it is said that "Xing can be understood by mind".

 

Guess this explains the proportions of the Buddhist Cannon, although the Daoist Cannon isn't flimsy either, people need to read, think and contemplate the eternal truths.

 

Me I found out the hard way that a safer path to cultivating (a sort of） Ming is living a healthy life, diversified diet and to implement key type workouts depending on physical state, season, environment.

 

While I'd sure love to find out more about the famed 丹诀, even if I did I'm afraid I'm already too skeptical to just accept a teacher at face value, and that's not something Chinese teachers find very confortable, specially coming from a 洋鬼子。 They'd have to prove their worth just as much as I'd have to prove mine. Information I don't need, have tons of it already.

Edited November 13, 2013 by 宁

[YMWong]

3600$ is roughly 22 000 RMB, that's an astronomical amount for a 'student in China'; teachers are paid 2400-3000 RMB a month. A five star hotel would be 5-600 RMB/day, all inclusive, which I'm sure is alot less than what they get. Robbing the bank aren't we. Even if I had the money I'd prolly still be too cheap to go for it, so maybe it's me.

 

Reasonability of a price always depends on what one receives in return vis-a-vis his expectations, so some people will tell you what they receive is priceless and therefore the cost is extremely cheap.

Everyone has a different standard.

 

Anyway, I am afraid to tell you that a 5 star hotel in a main city in China is now in the range of 1-2,000/day AT LEAST and that if you ask some of the (millions) who are managing quite well nowadays they will tell you 22,000 RMB is nothing. An average/decent office job in a city is now about that much, people who search the garbage to collect carton and other recyclable material and run around the city like coolies make an average of 15-20,000 RMB/mo.

Things have changed quite fast in China in the last few years ...

 

YM