Building the foundation and Inner Alchemy

[dawei]

That's where it's good to think about Xiantian vs Houtian.

 

Yes... following from your firsts posts... I've been connecting the dots on this. And I think Cat's 'life skill' figures into it as well.

[Antares]

That's where it's good to think about Xiantian vs Houtian.

 

There are many people who practice "yoga", qigong from books and video where there are many post- heaven breath manipulations and some visualizations, concentartions. I believe people can get "kundalini syndrome" or some subtle deviations. I am personally full of it. I suppose people can get some "benefits" from these practices bc of yuan jing depletion and that those benefits are questionable. The same is for qigong actually. These practices might speed up the yuan jing depletion I suppose. And this can create the illusion of spiritual progress. I realized such practices are way to nowhere - watch people here - they mix practices, methods mostly taken from books and videos, some have qigong teachers but I wonder how is it even close to neidan or real spirituality? May be sitting and concentrating on channels, chakras... sushumna breath... etc only speed up depletion. What are signes of yuan jing restoration, opendao? Do people get younger and live longer? Any real examples of this or it is mostly the theory? How does it really affect the body?

 

I asked you about Kundalini. Yuan jing seems the same as "white ojas" in yoga. But those yoga practices are very secret and quite difficult. Difficult to get right method anywhere. But I suppose it easir in neidan than in yoga. In yoga it connected with tantra which is quite difficult for western people. How long does daily practice take in your school for good results, opendao? I believe this initial process is very natural and there is nothing about strict restrictions and renunciations of normal life? I suppose that spiritual maturity is the most important together with right method and teacher. This is not a bunch of techniques. Taoists say that Tao is simple but it's difficult to understand

[opendao]

There are many people who practice "yoga", qigong from books and video where there are many post- heaven breath manipulations and some visualizations, concentartions. I believe people can get "kundalini syndrome" or some subtle deviations. I am personally full of it. I suppose people can get some "benefits" from these practices bc of yuan jing depletion and that those benefits are questionable. The same is for qigong actually. These practices might speed up the yuan jing depletion I suppose. And this can create the illusion of spiritual progress. I realized such practices are way to nowhere - watch people here - they mix practices, methods mostly taken from books and videos, some have qigong teachers but I wonder how is it even close to neidan or real spirituality? May be sitting and concentrating on channels, chakras... sushumna breath... etc only speed up depletion. What are signes of yuan jing restoration, opendao? Do people get younger and live longer? Any real examples of this or it is mostly the theory? How does it really affect the body?

 

You're right about depletion and "kundalini syndrome", it gives a feeling that something changes, but in reality people just go backward.

 

Yuan Jing restoration, by definition, returns youth. Do you remember how did you feel yourself at the age of 12-14 yo? Just think about it, watch children, ask them how do they feel the life. Think about their fate. It's a complicated subject, it's a secret of life and death.

 

I can't provide you any examples, people don't want to show off their achievements. It needs big efforts and time to reveal doubts...

 

I asked you about Kundalini. Yuan jing seems the same as "white ojas" in yoga. But those yoga practices are very secret and quite difficult. Difficult to get right method anywhere. But I suppose it easir in neidan than in yoga. In yoga it connected with tantra which is quite difficult for western people. How long does daily practice take in your school for good results, opendao? I believe this initial process is very natural and there is nothing about strict restrictions and renunciations of normal life? I suppose that spiritual maturity is the most important together with right method and teacher. This is not a bunch of techniques. Taoists say that Tao is simple but it's difficult to understand

 

Yes, Dao method is simple to practise. A few hours per day is enough to do all needed exercises. No celibacy, an you even can drink and eat what you usually eat.

 

I know very little about Yoga, sorry. If you can provide some definitions / texts, than maybe it will be possible to make some parallels.

[LaoZiDao]

I know very little about Yoga, sorry. If you can provide some definitions / texts, than maybe it will be possible to make some parallels.

I also know very little about Yoga, but here is some link I was passed by someone a while ago that I never really read. I never had any interest to read it personally, but it seems to cover a lot of information.

 

http://swamij.com/yoga-sutras.htm

Edited November 18, 2013 by LaoZiDao

[Antares]

Yes, in yoga sutras it is about to come to the calmness of mind :

 

 

Regulating your own mind: Swami Rama explains, "There have been many scholarly commentaries on the Yoga Sutras, but all the commentaries miss something very practical. Such commentaries can only satisfy the intellect, but do not actually help you beyond that: 'yogash chitta vritti narodha'--yoga is the control of the 'modifications' of the mind [1.2]. Narodha means control; there is no other English word for it. Control doesn't mean suppression, but channeling or regulating."

 

I won't quote texts but just will say that asana and pranayama are follow by dharana ana dhyana (concentration and meditation). The goal is to activate dormant Kundalini which is based in muladhara chakra.

 

 

Muladhara chakra location is the base or root of the spine between the genitals and the anus. It is just below the junction where Ida, Pingala and Sushumna Nadis meet. In male, its location is in the perineum, midway between the anus and penis. In the female, its location is near the cervix, where the vagina meets the uterus.

 

Is not is the same as hueiyin point? Is not opening this point foundation in both yoga and taoism? I know they start with balancing body structure and do exercises to balance body and strengthen the legs and thus activate "alchemical" channels there which go through hueiyin point up the body imho. In yoga they do asanas and pranayama in order to affect this point.

But it is not just quiet sitting in the beginning! That's totally wrong in both yoga in taoism.

 

Muladhara chakra governs bones, teeth, nails, anus, prostate, adrenals, kidneys, lower digestive functions, excretory functions, vigor, heredity, survival, security, passion, trust, feet & legs. Muladhara Chakra regulates muscular system, mechanism of bones, manufacture of red blood cells and relationship with money, home, & job.

 

IMHO the same function of kidneys on subtle level is in TCM (and jing in the body).

[Antares]

You're right about depletion and "kundalini syndrome", it gives a feeling that something changes, but in reality people just go backward.

 

Yuan Jing restoration, by definition, returns youth. Do you remember how did you feel yourself at the age of 12-14 yo? Just think about it, watch children, ask them how do they feel the life. Think about their fate. It's a complicated subject, it's a secret of life and death.

 

I know very little about Yoga, sorry. If you can provide some definitions / texts, than maybe it will be possible to make some parallels.

 

Well, there can be "false kundalini" arousal and that what I meant. This happens when people practice without transmission. Then they just arise they coarse inner dormant consciousness which is probably the same as post-heaven shen but I am not sure and I suppose only that first it must be refined and this is what done in Alchemy.

 

As for texts on yoga I will refer to this video on Tibetan yoga (which I personally like very much but with little experience and it seems to be the same as Ming cultivation; I do not say by any means that what I say is the truth regarding these methods and I only suppose these are very close methods in general). The Rinpoche discloses some information from 8:00:

 

 

They use regulation of mind, breath work and meditations in the beginning of the process of inner alchemy. And this is very common for all Asian traditions. There could be the distinctions in Southern Taoist schools which methods where set up by Chang Po-Tuan and there were not meditations at the initial stages but we have to read texts which are full of symbolism and are very difficult to understand without authentic teacher. This all is up a particular school and its methods. But there where many Northern Taoist schools which used quiet sitting even in the beginning and all of them including Southern ones have roots in Quanzhen school which employed many of Xing and xin methods in the beginning.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Antares

[opendao]

Well, there can be "false kundalini" arousal and that what I meant. This happens when people practice without transmission. Then they just arise they coarse inner dormant consciousness which is probably the same as post-heaven shen but I am not sure and I suppose only that first it must be refined and this is what done in Alchemy.

 

in Neidan it's not correct to refine post-heaven shen. It's just wrong.

 

As for texts on yoga I will refer to this video on Tibetan yoga (which I personally like very much but with little experience and it seems to be the same as Ming cultivation; I do not say by any means that what I say is the truth regarding these methods and I only suppose these are very close methods in general). The Rinpoche discloses some information from 8:00:

 

That's all common, but I see no Neidan here. It's all about "hormones" by holding breath, visualise etc, but Neidan goes opposite and works with different things (not hormones and channels everybody has). It's good that they start with the body, but Ming is not about body.

 

They use regulation of mind, breath work and meditations in the beginning of the process of inner alchemy. And this is very common for all Asian traditions.

 

Millions cannot make same mistake, yes?

 

There could be the distinctions in Southern Taoist schools which methods where set up by Chang Po-Tuan and there were not meditations at the initial stages but we have to read texts which are full of symbolism and are very difficult to understand without authentic teacher. This all is up a particular school and its methods. But there where many Northern Taoist schools which used quiet sitting even in the beginning and all of them including Southern ones have roots in Quanzhen school which employed many of Xing and xin methods in the beginning.

 

I don't know what schools you refer. In Yuxianpai (Northern, from Ma Danyang) they don't start with quite sitting and follow the idea "Ming first". In Wu-Liu Pai, which is Longmen basically, they start with Ming and Dazuo is prohibited. But a lot of book readers practice self-made methods and got no results. Who to believe?

 

But feel free to decide. I know that many people do the same now: sit, breath, meditate, some qigong or yoga, stop thoughts etc. How many of them achieved high levels described in Daoist books? It's like a brand nowadays ("mindfullness: etc), but, honestly speaking, it has no sense (logical sense) to follow this trend, in my opinion.

Edited November 29, 2013 by opendao

[xor]

I have held qigong in high regard because it was the way I found out of sickness, but I'm now seeing that it can become a crutch. Not only because of discussions here on TTB or ones I'm having outside of internet.

 

I may have placed qigong higher than it really was, attaching some things to it that are really beyond it and at the same time lost some of the original goal I have perceived before I ever practiced qigong. I'm not ready to dismiss anyone's practice but it seems I have some investigating to do.

[Antares]

in Neidan it's not correct to refine post-heaven shen. It's just wrong

 

May be I was not accurate in my definition of this process. It' not refining of the body akin to calisthenics but refining of "ego". I do not know how it is defined in taoism. What is ego? In yoga they say about "karmic winds" (impurities) which block the prana circulation in the channels.

 

From The Heart of Yoga

by T. K. V. Desikachar

 

 

Ideally, prana flows unhindered along all these passages, but this can only happen when they are not blocked by impurities and rubbish. Normally prana cannot reach sushumna but only flows through the ida (ha) and pingala (tha) nadi, and often insufficiently at that. When it is possible for the prana to enter the sushumna nadi, the prana of ha and tha unite (yoga), which is why we call the process of getting there hatha yoga.

 

The sushumna or central nadi is regarded as the ideal path for prana. If prana flows through this central passage, it is concentrated in the body to such a large degree that its effects can spread throughout the body in an ideal way. None of it gets lost outside the body. When I was describing the purpose and effect of pranayama, I said that the state in which prana leaks out of the body is one in which avidya prevails. How and where prana flows in the body, therefore, has direct consequences for our state of mind: if we cannot keep enough prana in the nadi, if blocks hinder its flow and it cannot keep flowing in the right direction, it dissipates outside the body and results in the mind becoming dark and restless. Conversely, the collection of prana in the body brings about inner peace and true understanding. The free flow of prana in the sushumna is not normally possible because something blocks the passage. This block is symbolized by a coiled snake, the kundalini.

 

From the description of the foundation of the 1st method in taoist school Yuxianpai:

 

Первый этап Открытой Школы алхимии называется:

Жу Шоу Гун

Состоит из практики с внутренними органами Нэйцзанфугун, где с помощью специальных методов удаляют из органов Цзан и Фу накопленную болезненную ци, приводя их в состояние чистоты, гармонии и готовности к алхимическому преобразованию и практики алхимического восполнения Шэньсяньбутайгун, которая восполняет в теле ци предшествующего неба.

 

What is this if not "refinement " of the post heaven as foundation? The difference could be in methods. But goal is the same

 

Further:

The concept of kundalini is confused by many imprecise definitions, and even a text such as the Hatha Yoga Pradipika contains contradictory descriptions of it. The definition that follows is derived from what in my opinion is the best, the clearest, and the most coherent text on this subject, the Yoga Yajnavalkya. Therekundalini is defined unambiguously as an obstacle. What is to enter the sushumna at some stage or other through your yoga practice is, according to this text, not the kundalini itself, but simply prana. Many books say that it is the kundalini itself that rises up through the sushumna, but this does not make sense if we follow the Yoga Yajnavalkya, one of the oldest texts that deals with this aspect of yoga. One of its central concepts is that prana and the various forms it takes in the body are linked to the practice of yoga, and it says that if we are successful in our practice, the kundalini is burned up, making the way clear for prana.

 

From the further description of your school method: 100 дневное заложение фундамента (срок зависит от возраста и состояния организма перед началом восполнения).

Это мастерство этапа начального преобразования, на котором цзин превращается в ци.

Он называется « заложением фундамента», так как именно на нем приготовляют «лекарство» и восполняют цзин, после чего переплавляют цзин в ци.

 

I understand that this "foundation" here is nearly the same process of "nourishing jing" but in yoga they call it prana. Simply we can say that after refining of impurities jing or prana can enter the channels and thus we nourish "life" the essence. When prana enters sushumna this is akin to converting jing into qi. But the language is different. I just want to realize what is wrong in yoga practice with all this stuff they do.

 

 

A snake killed while lying in a curled position unfolds and stretches out, the muscles no longer able to keep it coiled. It is said that when the fire in the body, agni, has killed the snake, the kundalini unrolls and the passage is open to the flow of prana. This does not happen overnight. Even when parts of the kundalini are destroyed, it remains capable of blocking sushumna for a long time.

 

opendao: That's all common, but I see no Neidan here. It's all about "hormones" by holding breath, visualise etc, but Neidan goes opposite and works with different things (not hormones and channels everybody has). It's good that they start with the body, but Ming is not about body.

 

Opposite way? As far as I understand Ming is eight extraordinary channels in the subtle body. On the video Rinpoche says that they open up thousands of channels inside of subtle body. Is not that "agni" the same as "pure yan" in neidan?

I mentioned already that breath is only used in the beginning to move away karmic winds in the channels and to bring balance into the mind. And some asanas help in this process affecting channels and glands which can produce hormones and thus purge the blood and body. In Neidan probably they begin with sexual glands activation but this activates production of hormones and thus nourishing jing (life, kidneys). Is it not?

[Antares]

opendao: I don't know what schools you refer. In Yuxianpai (Northern, from Ma Danyang) they don't start with quite sitting and follow the idea "Ming first". In Wu-Liu Pai, which is Longmen basically, they start with Ming and Dazuo is prohibited. But a lot of book readers practice self-made methods and got no results. Who to believe?

But feel free to decide. I know that many people do the same now: sit, breath, meditate, some qigong or yoga, stop thoughts etc. How many of them achieved high levels described in Daoist books?

---------

Well... It' not everything so straight with Dazuo. The main problem is that that all these schools have roots in Quanzhenjiao which was divided into many branches and even in time of early Quanzhen there were differences in methods and there were seven "immortals" who taught differently. Here I found some information in Russian (it' said quite clear):

 

 

 

 

Не все ученики Ван Чунъяна были согласны с его подходом к совершенствованию тела и духа; даже Семь даосских мудрецов, любимые ученики мастера, интерпретировали его мысли по-разному, что стало причиной образования различных сект в рамках школы Совершенной истины.

Наиболее известным расколом школы стало образование двух ее ветвей - южной, созданной Чжан Бодуанем, и северной, основателем которой стал любимый ученик Ван Чунъяна - Цю Чанчунь. Чжан Бодуань учился не у самого Ван Чунъяна, но наставник Чжана - Лю Хайчань - был учеником Люй Дунбиня.

Различия между учением Ван Чунъяна и Лю Хайчаня существовали и ранее; по сути, можно сказать, что разделение школы Совершенной истины произошло за одно поколение до Чжан Бодуаня. Расходящиеся формы Учения Совершенной истины существовали с самого начала, еще с того времени, когда Лю Хайчань и Ван Чунъян вместе учились у Люй Дунбиня. Когда преемниками Лю и Вана стали Чжан Бодуань и Цю Чаньчунь, существование двух направлений в рамках школы Совершенной истины было признано официально. Современные историки даосизма отождествляют северную ветвь школы, основанную Цю Чанчунем, со школой Врата дракона (Лунмэнь), а южную ветвь Чжан Бодуаня – со школой Пурпурный нефрит (Цзыян).

Между двумя направлениями школы Совершенной истины существовало несколько важных различий. Прежде всего, Ван Чунъян придавал больше значения совершенствованию духа и учил, что сознание следует совершенствовать прежде, чем тело. В свою очередь, Чжан Бодуань настаивал на том, что тело следует готовить в первую очередь, и активнее подчеркивал значение укрепления тела. Школа Совершенной истины Ван Чунъяна использовала медитативные методы типа чань-буддийских, чтобы создать основу духовного развития. Освобождение сознания от мыслей, уменьшение желаний и развитие отрешенности от всего внешнего рассматривались как часть совершенствования духа. В противоположность этому, южная ветвь, развивавшаяся под руководством Чжан Бодуаня, придавала основное значение техникам накопления, очищения и циркуляции внутренней энергии в целях достижения здоровья и долголетия.

Ван Чунъян полагал, что методы работы с телом, вводимые на продвинутой ступени даосского обучения, учат адепта применять физические трансформации, порожденные совершенствованием сознания, в то время как Чжан Бодуань считал телесное совершенствование необходимой предпосылкой для тех видов медитации, которые практикуются на продвинутом уровне. Кроме того, Ван Чунъян не использовал сексуальные техники накопления энергии, а в секте Чжан Бодуаня сексуальная йога на ранних стадиях обучения считалась приемлемым методом пополнения энергии, особенно для пожилых людей.

В конце периода Северной Сун (около 1100 г. н. э.) школа Совершенной истины, в особенности школа Лунмэнь, превратилась во влиятельную религиозную организацию с монашеским уставом, строгой дисциплиной, отличной администрацией, собственными земельными владениями и системой монастырей.

 

 

 

[opendao]

opendao: I don't know what schools you refer. In Yuxianpai (Northern, from Ma Danyang) they don't start with quite sitting and follow the idea "Ming first". In Wu-Liu Pai, which is Longmen basically, they start with Ming and Dazuo is prohibited. But a lot of book readers practice self-made methods and got no results. Who to believe?

But feel free to decide. I know that many people do the same now: sit, breath, meditate, some qigong or yoga, stop thoughts etc. How many of them achieved high levels described in Daoist books?

---------

Well... It' not everything so straight with Dazuo. The main problem is that that all these schools have roots in Quanzhenjiao which was divided into many branches and even in time of early Quanzhen there were differences in methods and there were seven "immortals" who taught differently. Here I found some information in Russian (it' said quite clear):

 

heh, don't believe everything written in Russian :-) In the article there are a lot of doubtful thoughts, do you know the author?

 

Shortly speaking, it's right to find a place of Dazuo in Quanzhen. To understand that all you need is to carefully read Wang Chongyang and know his life history. But still it's a riddle.

 

And I don't agree that "7 Masters was disagreed with Wang Chongyang and that's why they started their schools" (from that article). It's not possible.

[Walker]

Opendao,

 

I am under the impression that Zhao Bichen had transmission from the Wu Liu school, and yet he clearly taught seated practices. How do you interpret the seeming contradiction?

[opendao]

Opendao,

 

I am under the impression that Zhao Bichen had transmission from the Wu Liu school, and yet he clearly taught seated practices. How do you interpret the seeming contradiction?

 

He has started to learn in Wu-Liu Pai but stopped soon and now is considered as an "inventor" because his teaching is very far from Wu-Liu. So, Wu-Liu Pai doesn't recognise Zhao Bichen as its lineage, as far as I know.

[Walker]

I see, thank you.

[Antares]

heh, don't believe everything written in Russian :-) In the article there are a lot of doubtful thoughts, do you know the author?

 

Shortly speaking, it's right to find a place of Dazuo in Quanzhen. To understand that all you need is to carefully read Wang Chongyang and know his life history. But still it's a riddle.

 

Shall I trust the information taken from one of the oficial Wu Lui Pai' site and article written by the student of your school?

 

 

http://daospb.ru/konishev/shkola-sovershennoy-istini

 

Ван Чунъян сформулировал несколько основных принципов — ступеней постижения учения Совершенной Истины. Из них хорошо видно, что сначала идет работа с син, глубокое очищение души, что было взято из буддизма. На следующих этапах уже идет непосредственно практика мин, практика даосской алхимии нэйдань.

1. Монастырская жизнь. Гармоничная и умиротворенная жизнь в стенах даосской обители способствует гармонии телесных и духовных начал и ведет к обретению Дао.

2. Облачные странствия. Это духовные путешествия по Китаю, которые необходимы для посещения различных даосских учителей с целью получения наставлений и совершенствования в разных монастырях.

3. Изучение текстов. Оно необходимо для обретения мудрости н совершенствования духа.

4. Приготовление лекарств.

5. Отшельническая жизнь. Пребывание в уединенном месте с целью самосовершенствования.

6. Практика медитативного самоуглубления.

7. Нисхождение сердца (Луньцзянсинь). Достижение полного контроля над психикой, ее постоянной фиксации на единственном объекте («сердце уже не может пасть» — синь бу кэ цзян) и, в конечном итоге, в искоренении «различающей мысли» и уничтожении оппозиции «внешнее-внутреннее» (субъект-объект).

8. Плавка син. Это должно привести к ее полному высветлению.

9. Гармонизация пяти видов ци. С этой ступени уже начинается традиционная даосская практика нэйдань, работа с мин.

10. Соединение син и мин. Это позволяет создать бессмертный зародыш.

 

 

Why are these double standarts here, Mikhail? What are these numbers 6 & 7 if ont Dazuo and xin-Xing method?

What is the "Discending of the heart" if not one of the Dazuo goal? As far as I understand it means concentration on the lower belly in seated meditation to bring a "fire" down to the tan tien? And "control of the psyche" by the concentration?

 

Anyway xin-Xing methods follow by Ming method in Quanzhenjiao according to this article. These methods came from Buddhism but anyway neidan inherited it from Buddhism. It's strange from your side to neglect that fact that some authentic schools used these methods. And it' quite normal if a certain school is authentic or have authentic roots. It can be even a neigong method that your school denies.

Regards

Edited November 30, 2013 by Antares

[Antares]

And number 8 (melting of Xing which leads to its full refinement) seems to be same what I said "refinment of the post-heaven" what you deny. Where am I wrong here?

[opendao]

Why are these double standarts here, Mikhail? What are these numbers 6 & 7 if ont Dazuo and xin-Xing method?

 

I don't see any "double standards" here. What is described there is a full (but not detailed) way in Quanzhenjiao as thought by Wang Chongyang to some of his students. As I told before Quanzhen has a very specific path and it can be very different from what 7 masters tougth. Quanzhen starts with Xing methods, then tries to jump over to Xin and finishes the practice. So there is no "Xin first", there is "Xing first"! And yes, it's for monks, not to lay people, who cannot make such a jump. And even for monks it takes the entire life, because there is no complete Ming gong. But in Wang Chongyang sayings you can easily find another layer, that describes full Neidan practice. And he taught it to some of his students.

 

What is the "Discending of the heart" if not one of the Dazuo goal? As far as I understand it means concentration on the lower belly in seated meditation to bring a "fire" down to the tan tien? And "control of the psyche" by the concentration?

 

Descending of the heart is a very common term. You can do it in Zhang Zhuan, laying down, doing martial arts forms etc. Read what Wang Chongyang told about Dazuo, it's not just about sitting, it's about creating a background for people with a high De, so they can start doing Neidan.

 

Anyway xin-Xing methods follow by Ming method in Quanzhenjiao according to this article. These methods came from Buddhism but anyway neidan inherited it from Buddhism. It's strange from your side to neglect that fact that some authentic schools used these methods. And it' quite normal if a certain school is authentic or have authentic roots. It can be even a neigong method that your school denies.

 

I wrote about Xin (heart-mind) methods and their place in the practice. Until it's not Neidan, people understand all risks and have methods to eliminate them then it's ok. It looks like you see no difference between Xing and Xin, that is why you re confused.

 

 

And number 8 (melting of Xing which leads to its full refinement) seems to be same what I said "refinment of the post-heaven" what you deny. Where am I wrong here?

 

Number 8 is about melting Xin not Xing.

Xing in Russian is Синь

Edited December 2, 2013 by opendao

[Antares]

Yes, you are right. The number 1 is "Monastic life" and it could be written to some of the students. But we were talking of Quanzhen methods in general. Number 6 is the practice of meditative sinking and it follow by practice with Ming.

What kind of Xing methods were that for example?

 

 

Descending of the heart is a very common term. You can do it in Zhang Zhuan, laying down, doing martial arts forms etc. Read what Wang Chongyang told about Dazuo, it's not just about sitting, it's about creating a background for people with a high De, so they can start doing Neidan.

 

Yes, but Zhang Zhuan is not Ming method, is it? So you see where I am coming from. There are texts where Xing-xin methods are listed prior to Ming method. At least you agreed with this. I am not the expert and I do not have goal of arguing here. I found this information and it formed my point of view on it. There are many different methods out there and some people do Xing and Ming methods alongside and I am not saying that method of Ming is not important but it should not be stated that there is only one right method to start with and ignore sitting meditation. Or qigong, IMA and so on. Even we are not monks it helps to quiet the heart for the practice. But it should not be done for a long time. You have your teacher and you are right from your perspective but there are many other teachers and methods and you should not say it is all wrong. And by not any means I support Vitalii here and I say only on what theory my opinion is based. I have no teacher and "purely authentic" method and I do only some prliminary practice what you called as "sinking the xin". I wanted to clarify that it is NOT wrong at all what I am doing now. Also I try to practice some Ming method from a neigong system. That is what available for me at the moment.

Best regards

Edited December 1, 2013 by Antares

[opendao]

Yes, but Zhang Zhuan is not Ming method, is it? So you see where I am coming from. There are texts where Xing-xin methods are listed prior to Ming method. At least you agreed with this. I am not the expert and I do not have goal of arguing here. I found this information and it formed my point of view on it. There are many different methods out there and some people do Xing and Ming methods alongside and I am not saying that method of Ming is not important but it should not be stated that there is only one right method to start with and ignore sitting meditation. Or qigong, IMA and so on. Even we are not monks it helps to quiet the heart for the practice. But it should not be done for a long time. You have your teacher and you are right from your perspective but there are many other teachers and methods and you should not say it is all wrong. And by not any means I support Vitalii here and I say only on what theory my opinion is based. I have no teacher and "purely authentic" method and I do only some prliminary practice what you called as "sinking the xin". I wanted to clarify that it is NOT wrong at all what I am doing now. Also I try to practice some Ming method from a neigong system. That is what available for me at the moment.

Best regards

 

If you're "sinking the heart-xin" then it is a preparatory method and can be done very different (standing, sitting, diet, praying etc). But it is something that you can figure out by books if you want. There are a LOT of information.

 

To ignore sitting meditation or not: that's what teachers decide, based on their knowledge. There are strong arguments not to do it. There are some situations when it has some benefits. But all that has no relation to Neidan, that's the most important. It's impossible to use Dazuo as a corner stone of Neidan practice. You can consider it as an auxiliary method if you want, and Wang Chongyang's teaching confirms that (I don't want to quote all his saying about Dazuo).

 

Next. Dazuo is a well defined method. It has nothing with new-age meditation, where people visualize something or use their mind to drag energy through the body. It's just "sitting and forgetting". Nothing more.

 

If we speak about Xing methods, then yes, there are some practices in a sitting position. Do they have anything in common with Dazuo? Not really. Their mechanism is very different and based on Qi. And for sure they have nothing in common with "meditation" of any kind.

 

So let's return to Wang Chongyang. For monks there is a special method, where they clean the heart first. Sometimes it is called Xing gong, but in reality it is Xin gong, because Xing cannot be affected / used at this stage. And we know such Longmen schools that do it this way. Then, there is a stage where they need to connect Xing and Ming. To do that they have to start with Ming first. (or they have nothing to connect to) It's different from Ming gong in Neidan, but it is still work wit Qi (very specific though). So the technology is the same as in all other Neidan schools: preparation - Ming - Xing.

 

Some people prefer to think "Xing first", but, in my opinion, it drives them too much aside from the understanding how Neidan works. The laws are the same if we want to get the same results. And we're limited by the human nature, so the variants are really fit into one way - true way :-)

 

The steps in that Russian article are very sketchy and I don't think it has sense to rely on them too much. You have a general understanding, everything else depends on a teacher you will find.

[Antares]

The steps in that Russian article are very sketchy and I don't think it has sense to rely on them too much. You have a general understanding, everything else depends on a teacher you will find

 

It' very true that all this depends on the certain method and teacher. I have no teacher and place where I live has no any good teacher available and I do what I can from books and videos. Just study theory. Can't travel at the moment.

 

I posted some parallels between yoga and neidan alchemy. That' most of what I do now. So in general in Yoga the alchemy has almost same sequence - first some work with body and alignment - probably xin regulation in taoist texts. Some meditation is used which is similar to quiet sitting but there is no emphasis on it. The most job in the beginning is to activate ming - "shakti", prana and then they work with Xing when prana enters the central channel - they do kriya and tantra methods. So I am not arguing with you and can see much similarities in authentic methods. Your school against sitting at all and that' your way and you have transmission. Nothing wrong here. The problem arises when people work much with post heaven qi aka qigong, visualizations, breath and so on without having proper foundation for the practice and without experiencing subtle prana in main channels. I do not say that Dazuo is foundation in Neidan. I am currently reading Yoga Yagnavalkya text which is one of the most ancient text on yoga and the work with Ming is the foundation there as well but there is some xin regulation prior to it.

Regards

Edited December 2, 2013 by Antares

[Yae]

This book just said that the deer crane and tortoise all live 1000 years. ......... Still looks like a cool book and I'm excited to read it.

 

Eva Wong translated some valuable books from Wu-Liu Pai, like Huimingjing. In my opinion, Wu-Liu Pai's books are the most clear to understand by modern readers, because they explicitly cover many "hard" questions. And you are right, all Neidan books are intended to give a direction where to find a teacher, what to ask, how to learn etc, but they are not intended to give out practical methods.

 

Edit: I was going to delete my useless comment, but realized that considering the vast difference in views among those who argued on the thread it is probably only equally as terrible as the opposition is from the perspective of each side. Live on, my silly self.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Bluemind

[Antares]

This book just said that the deer crane and tortoise all live 1000 years. ......... Still looks like a cool book and I'm excited to read it.

 

It's better to find teacher. The method can not be realized by reading a book. There is danger to fall into mental constructions when mind begins to operate by terms and definitions. This is one of the major problems for beginners. But I believe it's quite useful to read it because it will give some ideas about right and wrong methods of cultivation. But anyway one will need a teacher for the transmission of the method and his/her help for understanding the theory of the cultivation in order to avoid any misunderstandings.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

my god!

what a horrible thread.

 

We start with the statement that there is no houtian training in neidan - which in and of itself is not a ridiculous place to start.

I think we can say that neidan, or dazuo or whatever you want to call it, should de-emphasize houtian practice, but obviously every practitioner will start from houtian and gradually move deeper into xiantian.

in terms of xiudao, which is a much bigger topic, certainly there is houtian practice.

laozi even said 何謂貴大患若身？吾所以有大患者，為吾有身，及吾無身，吾有何患？

obviously while we are alive we have to pay attention to our bodies or else we will die.

Any Daoguan you go to in China or Taiwan will have people who practice some kind of external cultivation method,

this is part of daoism whether people like it or not.

if we talk only about neidan, then the statement is basically correct - there can be no emphasis on the physical movement of the body during this practice.

on the other hand, principles such as wen huo wu huo, if controlled by the conscious mind, are in and of themselves houtian, not xiantian. It is important to understand that the active use of the mind in meditation is part of houtian practice and that xiantian can only be achieved after entering shen ming, hun luan, or xuan men. the practice will only be completely xiantian after entering xuan men. This is my current understanding and it is backed up by my teachers, and other friends who learn from other people. It is also backed up by almost every meditation classic I've read.

 

This kind of thread, where people talk trash on each other to establish some archaic point about whether or not to lift the pinky finger during tea drinking is very destructive to self cultivation.

Better to not cast stones at each other's glass houses.

[Antares]

Antares, how will you be able to identify this teacher that you seek?

 

He must be a sage who has long white beard and thick eyebrows soaring on the white cloud and sitting in the full lotus. Also he must.... (now forget about all this)

 

I believe we should not expect somebody who I mentioned above. All these describtions are for the mind only. There are no many teachers who teach neidan in the Western countries. It must be Chinese school which has been historically proved and has strong authentic lineage. Then you have to try it' methods whether it suits you and you should practise it for a while. It must not be Great Teacher I think. It could be His student who can transmit some initial methods. It should be enough to start

Edited December 9, 2014 by Antares

[Antares]

I think we can say that neidan, or dazuo or whatever you want to call it, should de-emphasize houtian practice, but obviously every practitioner will start from houtian and gradually move deeper into xiantian.

in terms of xiudao, which is a much bigger topic, certainly there is houtian practice.

 

No, there is no houtian practice in neidan. But yes there is houtian practice as preparation for neidan. Do you see the diference?

 

This "horrible thread" is about building-the-foundation-and-inner-alchemy.

 

This is initial stage in Neidan which is not houtian method at all. But this is xiantian method that effects houtian. Do you see the difference?

 

I will refer to the text of the Taoist master of the recent past.

 

 

 

In the Zhong-Lü tradition, the description of the alchemical practice is generally divided into four stages: (1) Laying the foundations; (2) Refining Essence to transmute it into Breath; (3) Refining Breath to transmute it into Spirit; (4) Refining Spirit to return to Emptiness.

The main features of the four stages are the following:

1. "Laying the foundations" (zhuji) is the practice performed to replenish the Three Origins (sanyuan, i.e., Original Essence, Original Breath, and Original Spirit) within the body.

http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_stages.html

 

Hope it's said quite clear