Building the foundation and Inner Alchemy

[hagar]

Of course.

 

That is why all the Traditional Schools emphasize the importance of an alive Master, who would be able to shed light on all the nuances of theory and philosophy, and how they both are conceived in a certain School.

 

This is true

 

But, can anyone here explain how the difference btw how "post-natal qigong" feels like and how internal alchemical meditations and postitions feels like, i.e experientially define this in a nuanced way? What is really the difference between the process of NeiDan and qigong?

 

We all know that nitpicking our way through the different interpretations of texts that allready in their own century were difficult to understand by their native practitioners, then translated, then interpreted, and then in many different translations, by non-practitioners, is abit, lets say...vague? no? Even on this board, people have wasted decades on practicing from translated versions of old Neidan texts. Which is actually tragic!

 

Alot of what I have been shown that is supposed to be NeiDan is not. Many facets of qigong may have NeiDan built into them. How to tell them apart? Some forms may contain information that has the function of internal alchemical induction, yet is still qigong in the strictest sense, and if not done properly, many NeiDan forms is just plain sitting.

 

Anyone?

 

PS: Things have changed since "Understanding Reality" and other "Yellow emperor¨´s guide" was written.

What has changed?

Edited November 8, 2013 by hagar

[Vitalii]

We get Post-Heaven Qi through respiration and nutrition (food). Thus, the source of Post-Heaven Qi is virtually endless, as opposed to the Pre-Heaven energy, which is finite.

Original energy is very subtle and elusive, and usual Qi is coarse and easily changeable. Yuan Qi is very hard to restore. To do it, one must at first find it in ones body and activate, and then begin the process of recovery. Restoration of the Original Energy is of an important concern in practice of Internal Alchemy in Daoist tradition.

Meanwhile, Post-Heaven energy can be restored relatively easily, with a healthy diet, fresh air, exercises of Qigong, which is quite simple as compared to Daoist Alchemy.

Post-Heaven QI and Pre-Heaven Qi differ from each other of in quality, information, methods of work, manifestation etc.

I can not describe all the details of practice here on the forum, because there are certain nuances that should be transferred individually.

Methods, which allow us to understand an exact difference, are studied on the 1st level in the School Zhen Dao. Also, before working with original Qi, you need to learn the "methods of building the foundation", and you need to have a deep understanding of Daoist theory.

For example:

now, many people consider if Qi raises up in the Du mai and drops down in the Ren mai, it is a Small Celestial circulation. However, this is not true.

If a person uses Post-Heaven Qi, it is not a Small Celestial circulation, but only circulation of Qi in the Du mai and the Ren mai.

If a person uses Pre-Heven Qi and understands alchemical processes, it is a real Small Celestial circulation.

We can collect Post-Heaven QI by use of Tuna, Qigong, Dao Ying. But we can't collect Pre-Heaven Qi by use of abovesaid arts, as this requires the Inner Alchemy.

 

From my personal experience I can say that there really is a difference, and that it is significant, and practices of original Qi can be obtained only from the Teacher, but not from books or forums.

[ChiDragon]

 

Wang Chungyang in 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 said:

...........................at the hour of Zi (11am–1pm) and the hour of Wu (11pm–1am).

_________

Translated by Louis Komjathy.

 

Those hours are reversed. It should read as follows:

Zi(子) (11pm–1am)

Wu(午) (11am–1pm).

[opendao]

Interesting thing is that Wu Lui Pai derives from Dragon Gate Taoism,

 

correct

 

which has Wang Liping as its transmitter.

 

sad, but there is no any prove for this declaration...

 

Of course.

 

That is why all the Traditional Schools emphasize the importance of an alive Master, who would be able to shed light on all the nuances of theory and philosophy, and how they both are conceived in a certain School.

 

Vitalii, can you shed some light on your lineage (complete, with masters at least on some steps) and where we can finally meet an alive Master of your school (except you, of course)? Wu-Liu Pai people has been asking for that for 10 years! But still there is nothing that can reveal our doubts...

 

 

Original energy is very subtle and elusive, and usual Qi is coarse and easily changeable. Yuan Qi is very hard to restore. To do it, one must at first find it in ones body and activate

Nobody, even you, can find it till a certain (and really high) level. No, Ming practices cannot be found based on that. Just because it's impossible even theoretically.

Yinshen has no knowledge about Yuan Qi! Yinshen cannot understand Ming!

Is it clear or it's better to explain?

[Vitalii]

Opendao, you always invent something that does not exist and I didn't say.

 

Over the several years, opendao and his friends from wuliupai invents and disseminates lies and slander about me and Zhen Dao Pai, and now he has come to this forum with the same target.

opendao, I see no sense to discuss with you.

 

 

P.S.

Who wants to know more about my School, welcome to website

 

Who has any questions about my School, welcome to forum

Edited November 8, 2013 by Vitalii

[opendao]

Opendao, you always invent something that does not exist and I didn't say.

 

Over the several years, opendao and his friends from wuliupai invents and disseminates lies and slander about me and Zhen Dao Pai, and now he has come to this forum with the same target.

 

opendao, I see no sense to discuss with you.

 

I asked what is the source of your profound knowledge, so you think you can represent Neidan tradition, claim anything about its methods, and teach others. You confirmed again, that there is nothing except books.

 

Where is your lineage, where is your teacher? Nothing to say, right? So it's better to cry about "wuliupai" (using a small letter to show your attitude lol), that you're victim ans so on. We've heard it many times. But we can confirm ANY our word.

 

I asked why Building the Foundation is so different in your school and other lineages, you said nothing again.

 

There is nothing really to discuss, Master Vitaliy, everything is clear. Write more.

[ChiDragon]

一山還有一山高
There is always a mountain higher than another

Therefore, who is to say who is the best....!!!

Edited November 8, 2013 by ChiDragon

[opendao]

一山還有一山高

There is always a mountain higher than another

 

 

Therefore, who is to say who is the best....!!!

 

 

We're speaking about the foundation actually. But if you don't know, in the world there are Mountains and there are small hills

[ChiDragon]

If one stays on the small hills, then one will not see what is on top of the mountains.........

There is a thing called "cultivation of the mind" at different levels. It is called 道行. The revelation of the level is based on the behavior or how one presents oneself besides verbal expression.

[opendao]

If one stays on the small hills, then one will not see what is on top of the mountains.........

 

 

exactly. Neidan schools are high in the mist of mountains, but people prefer to think that hills are mountains.

 

 

There is a thing called "cultivation of the mind" at different levels. It is called 道行. The revelation of the level is based on the behavior or how one presents oneself besides verbal expression.

 

Somebody's level is just a mirror of somebody else's level of understanding.... You remember what Zhan Boduan wrote about a toad and its knowledge?

Edited November 9, 2013 by opendao

[ChiDragon]

Somebody's level is just a mirror of somebody else's level of understanding.... You remember what Zhan Boduan wrote about a toad and its knowledge?

 

One can stay away from the mirror of somebody else's level of understanding but it is better to be bilingual to have a higher chance of comprehension. There is always something get lost from translation to translation. Sometimes, even natives have lots of misinterpretations, perhaps, with more or less errors.

Edited November 9, 2013 by ChiDragon

[opendao]

 

One can stay away from the mirror of somebody else's level of understanding but it is better to be bilingual to have a higher chance of comprehension. There is always something get lost from translation to translation. Sometimes, even natives have lots of misinterpretations, perhaps, with more or less errors.

 

I rely on my teacher's knowledge. He is a professional sinologist with 30 something years of experience in translating Daoist scriptures. And he always verifies his understanding through his teacher, who is more then just native. Personally I have more issues with English, this language is hard to be used for Neidan. But you are right, classic Chinese language is an obstacle for many people.

Edited November 9, 2013 by opendao

[ChiDragon]

金丹與內外丹，因為口傳秘傳的關係，難免帶有許多玄怪色彩。經過長期比對考證，應為一種修練禪定的方式，只是敘述與說明的角度不同，能結下金丹者，代表定 力已能成功凝聚，從定力的凝聚點散發出光芒遍及全心全靈，故稱為金丹，達致內外渾融一體的禪定境界，結下金丹後更進一步修習，就可體驗到金身(有別於肉 體，以定力為憑依的意志存在體)是可脫離肉身的更高層次的存在，故可達致白日飛昇，金身不滅。

 

According to the above reference, the Waidan process was passed down by the word of mouth. It has never been documented. Therefore, there were lots of discrepancies. Anyway, all the Taoist methods are only conceptual with no significant scientific values. IMO The only valid practice is Chi Kung. It is the only practice that I can come up with a good scientific explanation.

 

 

 

Ref: Waidan 外丹術

Edited November 9, 2013 by ChiDragon

[opendao]

Zhang San Feng in 道言浅近说 said about calm and silence and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice.

 

 

I know this Zhang San Feng text, it is a 道言浅近说, where Zhang San Feng said about calmness and silence and that calmness and silence are the main principles of a true practice.

 

 

I have to admit that I never been to China and never spoke to any traditional teacher of Taoism and thus my opinion is based only on what I have read in books. Your teacher says that all those texts are incorrect translations of Taoist scriptures. It's may be true but I can not just trust you and your teacher. I have reasons for that. First of all we don't know what was the true Wu Lu Pai's method in the past and if it correlates with the method they use and teach you now. We do not know situation in Taoist tradition in contemporary China. There are loads of teachers in Asia who teach methods which can not be proved for their authenticity and people have to trust them. Second, I have nothing against your personal experience and I only study different oriental scriptures and I can see many meditations techniques are described there. It's what I said in my previous post. I can give you many links to the yoga scriptures where regulations of breath are described. As for Taoist scriptures I can refer only to the English translations as I do not read Chines. For example here is

 

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/chang1.htm#Lu

The Writings Attributed to Master Zhang San Feng:

 

Now about Zhang San Feng. I made some comments before, but now a little bit more. It's good that you read different texts, from different masters. But, as a researcher, you need to understand who wrote a text and for whom. Zhang Sanfeng learnt 2 schools. One of them is VERY special. If you explore that, you will understand that his methods are very unique, even though you can see such words as "Da Zuo" and "breathing". I don't want to talk further about it, because it's a very simple test to understand, if somebody knows Neidan or not (it's not about you). Neidan is simple when there is an enlightened teacher, who explains all such traps and subtle details, but Neidan is complicated and confusing if it is learnt just by books.

[opendao]

But, can anyone here explain how the difference btw how "post-natal qigong" feels like and how internal alchemical meditations and postitions feels like, i.e experientially define this in a nuanced way? What is really the difference between the process of NeiDan and qigong?

 

the real difference is not about what somebody feels, but about results. The result of the first stage is restored Yuan Jing. What is it exactly and what signs appear - all that can explain a true teacher and then you can compare it with classic texts.

 

PS: Things have changed since "Understanding Reality" and other "Yellow emperor¨´s guide" was written.

What has changed?

 

Nothing good. The balance between right and wrong information is the same, but the amount of information is crazy higher (cheap publishing, Internet, new-age etc), so to find something is even more difficult then 500-1000 years ago.

[Antares]

 

Now about Zhang San Feng. I made some comments before, but now a little bit more. It's good that you read different texts, from different masters. But, as a researcher, you need to understand who wrote a text and for whom. Zhang Sanfeng learnt 2 schools. One of them is VERY special. If you explore that, you will understand that his methods are very unique, even though you can see such words as "Da Zuo" and "breathing". I don't want to talk further about it, because it's a very simple test to understand, if somebody knows Neidan or not (it's not about you). Neidan is simple when there is an enlightened teacher, who explains all such traps and subtle details, but Neidan is complicated and confusing if it is learnt just by books.

 

You said that yuan qi can't be percieved directly. So what are the signs of restored yuan jing could you describe? We have to determine what we are talking about. Otherwise it would be speculation of words which no one really realizes. These definitions come from ancient culture and we deal with our understandings. Or we should look for some analogies in other traditions in order to understand fully what we are talking about . What is Ming and Xing exactly? I don't mean anything like shen or "spirit" or "soul" etc. We have texts here with translations of old Chinese and trying to undesrstand and compare it with the words we use in language at this time. You propose to compare with those ancient texts. Ok. But who really understands those symbols? Chinese tradition was lost and what is the qualification of contemporary masters? For example in India and Tibet there are many authentic unbroken lineages which survived and there is no problem with understandings of texts. The methods I quoted seem very similar in both traditions. You say that was not the method at all. May be you are right, but may be it is only what your teacher says to you. You see where I am coming from. Only one unknown teacher in China says that all this wrong vs many many other masters in alive traditions where this method has been used for centuries. We quoted few excerpts that it was used in Tradition. Of course the transmission is diserable but I do not see where it is said that this method is WRONG or false. I see you are talking about from the perspective of your school. And this is fine. Your teacher has transmission and you have texts. I wonder from a researcher position about your statement that it can not be uderstood from books. There are many methods described in yoga how to regulate breath and quiet the mind and they are known for thousands of years. I understand that you are talking about Taoism here but my query comes from my curiosity. Nothing wrong with Taoisim and your school until you say that all other methods are wrong and that other schools lost authentic method. That's what you actually declare. In yoga there are many preparatory breath techniques which purge channels and bring balance to the mind. There is even the theory that many methods came from India to China and now we have situation that Chinese tradition says that methods of Indian tradition are wrong. I understand that there can be unique method in Taoisim and I only ask to shed the light on this issue because I can see that the method of quieting the mind by regulation of breath is described in both traditons. You say that albeit this method is described it was not the main method.

But no one states here that it was. In every authentic tradition one should recieve transmission and there are many preparatory techniques. Quieting the mind is one among them. But you say that according to the texts it was almost prohibited. I did not see where it is said that this method is wrong. I understand that DULL seating is wrong and that it was false method for itself without preparation and if done incorrectly.

 

Edited November 10, 2013 by Antares

[ChiDragon]

We're speaking about the foundation actually. But if you don't know, in the world there are Mountains and there are small hills

 

Yes, you are quite right about that. Let's hope one knows where the oneself is standing on......!!!

[opendao]

You said that yuan qi can't be percieved directly. So what are the signs of restored yuan jing could you describe? We have to determine what we are talking about. Otherwise it would be speculation of words which no one really realizes. These definitions come from ancient culture and we deal with our understandings. Or we should look for some analogies in other traditions in order to understand fully what we are talking about . What is Ming and Xing exactly? I don't mean anything like shen or "spirit" or "soul" etc. We have texts here with translations of old Chinese and trying to undesrstand and compare it with the words we use in language at this time. You propose to compare with those ancient texts. Ok. But who really understands those symbols? Chinese tradition was lost and what is the qualification of contemporary masters?

 

The Chinese tradition is not lost and is much better now comparing with the level of Daoism understanding in the West.

Who really understands those symbols? Teachers understand them very well, and share their understanding even in modern books. But to understand all that symbols and books related to the practise ("how it feels", and what exact results it gives), you need to be a student of such teachers.

 

For example in India and Tibet there are many authentic unbroken lineages which survived and there is no problem with understandings of texts. The methods I quoted seem very similar in both traditions. You say that was not the method at all. May be you are right, but may be it is only what your teacher says to you. You see where I am coming from. Only one unknown teacher in China

 

In China he is VERY well known. And the entire lineage is well known. Even if we skip this fact, we face another situation:

 

If somebody explains in details how Da Zuo can damage somebody's health, but somebody else, who knows that, continues to teach and promote such method without giving any explanations how it's possible to avoid such problems, how do you name such behaviour? I call it "crime" and "lack of responsibility". Because I've experienced all these problems and know the other side of the practice.

 

There are many methods described in yoga how to regulate breath and quiet the mind and they are known for thousands of years. I understand that you are talking about Taoism here but my query comes from my curiosity. Nothing wrong with Taoisim and your school until you say that all other methods are wrong and that other schools lost authentic method. That's what you actually declare.

 

Did I write "all"? No. Because for sure there are traditional, non-broken and complete Neidan schools except Wu-Liu Pai. I've even mentioned some of them: Yuxianpai, Southern school of Zhan Boduan, some branches of Longmen etc.

 

says that all this wrong vs many many other masters in alive traditions where this method has been used for centuries.

 

pls list the name some alive masters in Neidan tradition that think that "Da Zuo is the main method of Neidan".

 

I agree that Neidan is very screwed now, so I suggest to rely ONLY on something that have real proves of authenticity and completeness.

 

In yoga there are many preparatory breath techniques which purge channels and bring balance to the mind. There is even the theory that many methods came from India to China and now we have situation that Chinese tradition says that methods of Indian tradition are wrong. I understand that there can be unique method in Taoisim and I only ask to shed the light on this issue because I can see that the method of quieting the mind by regulation of breath is described in both traditons. You say that albeit this method is described it was not the main method.

 

There are no any proves that Neidan methods came from India. Damo's legacy also has some pointers about Chan-meditation and it's place in the practice. But I'm not Buddhist, so I don't care to provide quotes. Tip is given, who wants can find it.

 

So there is nothing to discuss here. I'm not in Yoga tradition, not in Buddhist tradition. But to compare, you need to be inside, it means you have to be a student of a true teacher. So I speak only about Neidan, where nor breathing, nor Da Zuo are used as the main method.

 

says that all this wrong vs many many other masters in alive traditions where this method has been used for centuries.We quoted few excerpts that it was used in Tradition. Of course the transmission is diserable but I do not see where it is said that this method is WRONG or false. I see you are talking about from the perspective of your school. And this is fine. Your teacher has transmission and you have texts. I wonder from a researcher position about your statement that it can not be uderstood from books. There are many methods described in yoga how to regulate breath and quiet the mind and they are known for thousands of years. I understand that you are talking about Taoism here but my query comes from my curiosity. Nothing wrong with Taoisim and your school until you say that all other methods are wrong and that other schools lost authentic method. That's what you actually declare.In yoga there are many preparatory breath techniques which purge channels and bring balance to the mind. There is even the theory that many methods came from India to China and now we have situation that Chinese tradition says that methods of Indian tradition are wrong. I understand that there can be unique method in Taoisim and I only ask to shed the light on this issue because I can see that the method of quieting the mind by regulation of breath is described in both traditons. You say that albeit this method is described it was not the main method.

But no one states here that it was. In every authentic tradition one should recieve transmission and there are many preparatory techniques. Quieting the mind is one among them. But you say that according to the texts it was almost prohibited. I did not see where it is said that this method is wrong. I understand that DULL seating is wrong and that it was false method for itself without preparation and if done incorrectly.

 

Ok, again. Da Zuo is a preparatory method in some schools. If it's doing properly, it helps to quite the heart. That's it. Next you need to move to Ming practices, that cannot be done in stillness. "Wrong method" is to think that Neidan's main method is Da Zuo and practise nothing except Da Zuo, or practise Da Zuo longer then 10-15 minutes (!). Da Zuo is used as a basis, so its role is very very small. In many other schools Da Zuo is not used at all because of its negative Yin effect.

 

You quoted Zhang Sanfeng, but you don't understand what is the specific in his school. So you don't understand, where all this can be used. Even though some sitting practice is described there, it's not Da Zuo how it is thought. I've already wrote about the difference between Da Zuo as a method ("quite sitting") and sitting practices of a higher level, after Ming and Xing are established.

 

After all that take a look at some modern curriculums for beginners: there are Dazuo and Qigong only. You ask a teacher: "what is the difference between Neidan and Qigong?". He tells you: "main method of Neidan is Da zuo". You ask him: "Where is Ming?". He tells you: "Ming is in Da zuo". That what is wrong. Then with some doubts, you ask about lineage. And just silence replies you... After all that, people on forums start to say that Da Zuo is "when we're looking for Yuan Qi inside". But it's not even traditional Da Zuo! It is some modern false and wrong method, invented based on books. And it is wrong not because somebody tells it, but because it's evident when you understand at least the basic theory of Neidan.

 

You're trying to map your experience to something that you've never experienced. It's hard and almost impossible. Tips were given, find a teacher. You know now how. Or you can ignore all that and continue. That's your choice and your responsibility.

Edited November 10, 2013 by opendao

[Antares]

opendao

In China he is VERY well known

 

I wanted to say it was unknown for the rest of the world until now. And that there in NOT only one Taoism among spiritual traditions, it was closed and it is still closed. We know nothing about contemporary taoism and teachers. And it was supressed after cultural revolution. I only compared it with other well known traditions. And your teacher and WLP school was not known in the West. We can't trace it back the history of this school and if there were spiritual achievements.

 

 

If somebody explains in details how Da Zuo can damage somebody's health, but somebody else, who knows that, continues to teach and promote such method without giving any explanations how it's possible to avoid such problems, how do you name such behaviour?

 

I have not heard about anyone who got sick by the practice of seated meditation

 

 

pls list the name some alive masters in Neidan tradition that think that "Da Zuo is the main method of Neidan".

 

Ahhh, NO ONE SAYS HERE THAT IT IS MAIN METHOD. I wrote that it is one of the methods among many others and that there are MANY preparatory techniques follow by seated meditation. Da Zuo is may be only one of them for BEGINNERS and there could many others more advanced. We quoted few excerpts but could you quote taoist texts where it is said that meditations are NOT USED AT ALL? Bc you wrote that "It what Neidan thinks about any meditation".

 

 

You're trying to map your experience to something that you've never experienced. It's hard and almost impossible. Tips were given, find a teacher. You know now how. Or you can ignore all that and continue

 

But you have to explain first what is the Ming. Because we talk about some idea without definiton. I'll put it like that, you say:

"we have ming but will not tell you what it is but you should buy it...". I ask what is it but you can not explain what you offer. Now one has to go faraway to your place and spend a lot money without knowing what he is going to get. May be it is just selling some idea, how we know? I have another idea of this. Post heaven and pre-heaven are our usual persobal awareness and pure perception beyond it. How somebody can give you another perception if you can not regulate your mind and breath can you explain it please? I just can not understand this. And I do not say it is main method once again

[Antares]

And it seems strange for me personally. Now there are many differenet sects among asian traditions (western branches) who state they have something special what other ones don't have. There are many examples when people receive "transmission" and get some transpersonal experience but not always they can control it and not every transmission is "clean". If person can not regulate his/her mind and there is no technique for it even then it is very very strange. I would think twice if it worths to deal with such organizations. There are many authentic schools who have teached it for centuries and it is based on human experience and then somebody tells it is wrong as method. Very strange

Edited November 10, 2013 by Antares

[opendao]

Ahhh, NO ONE SAYS HERE THAT IT IS MAIN METHOD.

 

Here is what Vitalii said:

 

 

 

Neidan

Inner Alchemy (内丹 – Neidan) is a set of higher level methods, which are based on meditative practices (打坐 – Dazuo) suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo). Their purpose is the spiritual development of a person that helps to understand oneself.

 

"Set of higher (why?) level methods, which are based on Dazuo". It means that ALL methods of Neidan according to this definition are based on Da Zuo and are done in sitting position motionless and calm. Am I inventing something?

 

I wrote that it is one of the methods among many others and that there are MANY preparatory techniques follow by seated meditation. Da Zuo is may be only one of them for BEGINNERS and there could many others more advanced. We quoted few excerpts but could you quote taoist texts where it is said that meditations are NOT USED AT ALL? Bc you wrote that "It what Neidan thinks about any meditation".

 

First of all, there is no term "meditation" in Neidan. So they such methods are not used at all, just by definition.

 

Second, if by "meditation" you mean Da Zuo, as Vitalii, then yes, I insist that Da Zuo as a method is not used in Neidan, excepting the preparatory phase (but in just very limited number of schools), which is not a part of Neidan. There are some high level sitting practices, where it's written "sit in Da Zuo", but they are not Da Zuo by the method used in such practices. It's a concept, theory concept, nothing more. That's why I named it "result". Even though, such practices are just 30% at the most of the entire process, they are finishing the practice, so again it's not correct to say they are Neidan's main method. Or only method following Vitalii's definition.

 

 

But you have to explain first what is the Ming. Because we talk about some idea without definiton. I'll put it like that, you say:

"we have ming but will not tell you what it is but you should buy it...". I ask what is it but you can not explain what you offer. Now one has to go faraway to your place and spend a lot money without knowing what he is going to get. May be it is just selling some idea, how we know? I have another idea of this. Post heaven and pre-heaven are our usual persobal awareness and pure perception beyond it. How somebody can give you another perception if you can not regulate your mind and breath can you explain it please? I just can not understand this. And I do not say it is main method once again

 

We will talk about Ming later, it's much harder then Xing and Da Zuo. Ancient saying: "It's possible to understand Xing, but not Ming". No, Ming is not a pure perception. Ming is Yuan Qi. Pure perception is Yuan Shen. I will think how I can elaborate that, because obviously Yuan Qi is another term that is not defined.

Edited November 10, 2013 by opendao

[opendao]

And it seems strange for me personally. Now there are many differenet sects among asian traditions (western branches) who state they have something special what other ones don't have. There are many examples when people receive "transmission" and get some transpersonal experience but not always they can control it and not every transmission is "clean". If person can not regulate his/her mind and there is no technique for it even then it is very very strange. I would think twice if it worths to deal with such organizations. There are many authentic schools who have teached it for centuries and it is based on human experience and then somebody tells it is wrong as method. Very strange

 

Compare results of currently live adepts then, based on the results mentioned in old books. Sitting on forums or reading books, you won't get that, it's a long and hard process to prove something to yourself, and it has to be done in person, face to face.

 

About transmissions: there are obvious transmissions and "misty" ones. Mist is the first sign that something is wrong. But even clean transmission is not a guarantee that the methods are there.

Edited November 11, 2013 by opendao

[Vitalii]

It means that ALL methods of Neidan according to this definition are based on Da Zuo and are done in sitting position motionless and calm.

 

Am I inventing something?

 

yes, you are inventing.

 

I said: "set of higher level methods, which are based on meditative practices (打坐 – Dazuo) suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo)"

 

I didn't say: "ALL methods of Neidan".

[opendao]

 

yes, you are inventing.

 

I said: "set of higher level methods, which are based on meditative practices (打坐 – Dazuo) suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo)"

 

I didn't say: "ALL methods of Neidan".

 

 

Inner Alchemy (内丹 – Neidan) is a set of higher level methods, which are based on meditative practices (打坐 – Dazuo) suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo).

 

A is a set of B based on C.

A = set of B based on C

A = C, because there is absolutely nothing in this phrase that can point to something not based on C.

 

Where are methods NOT based on sitting Da Zuo in this phrase?

 

I even checked you Russian web-site, it's the same:

 

Внутренняя Алхимия (?? - Нэйдань) – это особые методы высшего уровня основу которых составляют медитативные практики (?? - Дацзо) предполагающие сидение в неподвижном покое и безмолвии (?? - Цзинцзо)

Edited November 10, 2013 by opendao

[Vitalii]

Opendao, you always invent something that does not exist and I didn't say.

 

I see no sense to discuss with you.