learning as useless?

[Rob Patterson]

In both the Taoteqing and Zhuangzi learning is identified as useless. Both Laozi and Zhuangzi are critical of scholarship and learning in general. However, they certainly did not find their own views as useless. How can their claims be defend since the appear to be self-contradictory?

[Trunk]

In both the Taoteqing and Zhuangzi learning is identified as useless.

Reference the current thread, Does thinking stop?

[sean]

In both the Taoteqing and Zhuangzi learning is identified as useless. Both Laozi and Zhuangzi are critical of scholarship and learning in general. However, they certainly did not find their own views as useless. How can their claims be defend since the appear to be self-contradictory?

Not sure if there is any canonical support for my view, but I imagine that in a sense these sages may have in fact considered their own views as completely useless as they cannot be used for much of anything. Unlike the point of most studies, the true Tao teachings confer no advantages to an individual IMO. At best they open a gateless gate to a process of unlearning. Sitting and forgetting. Then just being. Which never was missing to begin with, so what was there to gain?

[beancurdturtle]

Not sure if there is any canonical support for my view, but I imagine that in a sense these sages may have in fact considered their own views as completely useless as they cannot be used for much of anything. Unlike the point of most studies, the true Tao teachings confer no advantages to an individual IMO. At best they open a gateless gate to a process of unlearning. Sitting and forgetting. Then just being. Which never was missing to begin with, so what was there to gain?

Bingo!

 

"Learning" is mostly gaining understanding of someone else's interpretation of things manifested. What you gain is your own definition of a definition. One more degree of separation from just being and accepting.

[gendao]

Simply learning things is fairly useless.

 

Learning HOW to DO things is not.

 

It's the difference between a lot of academic mental masturbation typically found in Western Taoists vs Chinese Taoists doing actual internal alchemy practices.

[fatherpaul]

it is said of the sages of old:

"upon hearing a single word, they would abandon learning and live in spontaniety"

 

 

i can dig that

[thelerner]

I think Vortex hit it on the head. Say in Zen or house building, read 5 books, 10, 100 books. The world moves for those who get off there butt and actually builds the house or in the case Zen onto there butts and puts in time on the mat so that they can bring that state of mind into the busy world.

 

The young builder who reads zero books and apprentices themselves out to a master carpenter goes far. The meditator who never reads and shows up at the Zendo week after week, year after year goes far. The bookly scholar just gets top heavy.

 

Course you can only take that analogy so far. Books good. Never did me no harm.

 

 

Michael

[Trunk]

The world moves for those who get off there butt ..

xrShK-NVMIU

[PensivePatrick]

xrShK-NVMIU

 

I think that is my favourite Monty Python of all time!!!

 

Does this discussion not come back however to whether truth is be abolsute or not, whether in learning there is anything to actually be grasped or attained? Basically, is there such thing as truth, and if so, can we ever find it?

 

While it is certinaly hard to answer this question, the union of contemplation and action must come (as in what the person was saying about building the house, you can read 100 books but at some point action must come in). Michael Polanyi's book "personal experience" was always very interesting in the context of what was said, as what I understood was that it is only through our actions and through living that we can understand things and gain insight into truth. It is when we live something, that we can understand.

[thelerner]

This has absolutely nothing to do w/ this conversation, which puts it in alignment w/ Monty Python. I just got the book 'South Park and Philosophy'. The greatest philosophy professors of our generation take on the weighty issues no one (except South Park) dares to confront.

 

It looks like the best philosphy book I've read in the new millenia.

 

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

P.S I will check it out for Taoist commentary