Sufism and QiGong . . .

[Lataif]

I find that different spiritual traditions . . . don't seem to map the same territory.

 

And my suspicion is that no higher "map of maps" . . . is actually possible. Although Id love to be proven wrong.

 

My primary practice in the past has been Sufism. It's strong (nearly 100%) in its understanding of the emotions . . . but weak in its understanding of the physical body.

 

So I've begun studying Qigong. It, in turn, is strong in its understanding of the physical body . . . but weak in its understanding of emotions.

 

Bottom line: I'd be interested to hear if anyone has come to any understanding of how the Lataif, specifically, pattern the physical body. I just don't see it clearly at all.

 

If QiGong had a more well-articulated understanding of emotions . . . we could get from the Lataif to the emotions (via Sufism) . . . and then from the emotions to the physical body (via QiGong).

 

But so far I haven't see anything like that . . .

 

Thanks.

 

[Jetsun]

This is an interesting topic, I agree with you that the Chinese approach isn't very strong on the emotional side which is probably due to societal influence on practices as many of the practices originate from times of repression. You might have to explain what the Lataif is though as I have never heard of that before.

[Isimsiz Biri]

As Salamun Alaykum,

 

Now,

 

Good topic.

 

But there is a confusion of terminology.

 

Chakra word etymologically comes from Turkish word "Cark" "Rotating thing"

 

There are many many energy points in the physical human body.

 

Seven chakras are the main energy points of physical body. They are related with seven Nafs.

 

The lataifs are however, the main energy centers of astral body.

 

Could I ask which Tariqa you studied and in which country, if you do not mind, and especially what is the meaning of Lataif for you?

 

Best Regards,

Edited November 5, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[JohnC]

The more I study all the different systems, the more I find that they are all different cultural maps of the same mountain, sometimes with different aims, but all leading to the top.

 

BUT.

 

The markers along the way of the path seem to be the same, albeit called different things and interpreted/translated through different cultural views. And that a lot of what we hear about in the west, and on the internet are things that got attention, but isn't all there is.

 

Like China's qigong became popular for healing, but isn't talked about as much as a 'spiritual path' that develops your insight and awareness up to enlightenment... but it does take you there(depending on the system of course).

As another example in India what was immigrated out was the spiritual path, so you hear about the spiritual side of chakra's emotions, etc.

 

The reason for this is ( I believe) cultural and others... like in China it's very practical. Spiritual work for every day, heal your body, carry water. While Indian the spiritual path is highly respected and revered, with traditions where it's respected for a father of a family to leave any responsibilities, is considered dead with a funeral, and follows the path for the rest of his life.

 

-----

 

I hear you though on the Chinese view on emotions. I've experienced neigong's/qigongs that work strongly on insight which leads to understanding of self, emotions and your suffering and some that develop your vibration/power but seem slower to develop insight and understanding.

 

I do know that it is considered in Chinese medicine and qigong.... I don't know that much about it though for the reasons above.

 

I saw this last night, and thought about checking it out:

The Psych in Chinese Medicine

 

I think you can go ahead and supplement though. My qigong is like rocket fuel for my meditation/neigong. Follow your gut though.

 

For me, when I was needing healing and the like, I was drawn to more bodily based practices, and when moving towards insight I moved towards those. I do think though, they will all lead to the top, just developing different aspects at different speeds and time.

 

John

Edited November 4, 2013 by JohnC

[Jetsun]

The more I study all the different systems, the more I find that they are all different cultural maps of the same mountain, sometimes with different aims, but all leading to the top.

 

This is what I thought but doing some research AH Almass says that the Lataif are energy centres in the chest near the heart which are like subtle forms of love consciousness or levels of the heart, which I haven't heard of in any other system. But then other articles say the Lataif are the same thing as the Chakras

 

[Lataif]

As Salamun Alaykum,

 

Good topic.

 

But there is a confusion of terminology.

 

Chakra word is etymologically comes from Turkish word "Cark" "Rotating thing"

 

There are many many energy points in the physical human body.

 

Seven chakras are the main energy points of physical body. They are related with seven Nafs.

 

The lataifs are however, the main energy centers of astral body.

 

Could I ask which Tariqa you studied and in which country, if you do not mind, and especially what is the meaning of Lataif for you?

 

 

Wa ‘alaykum al-salaam.

 

Generally speaking, the Lataif are understood by Sufism to be the underlying differentiated qualities that pattern all of reality.

 

Specifically (and closest to our own human experience), they pattern emotions. Every human emotion can definitely be understood as having its ultimate source in one or more Lataif.

 

What puzzles me . . . is how the Lataif pattern physiological processes specifically.

 

In general terms, it's possible to identify certain Lataif in the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems . . . in the physiological components of sexuality . . . and so on.

 

But what the conscious/intentional interface might be between specific Lataif . . . and specific physiological processes . . . is very unclear to me.

 

I'm guessing . . . that maybe the Chi Body could be such an interface.

 

The experience of the (general) Chi Body . . . and the experience of undifferentiated Presence (in which all the Lataif are implicit) . . . seem very similar to me.

 

If I had some experience of the (general) Chi Body differentiating into specific qualities of Chi . . . then there'd be some hope of mapping them to the differentiated qualties of Presence (which are the Lataif).

 

But I'm not sure (as I've said before) whether those maps actually overlap in that functional way . . . or not.

 

It's very interesting . . .

 

P.S. As I understand it, my transmission of the Lataif is third generation, from an order in Iran in the 1970s (probably Ni'matullāhī, although I can't say definitely . . .).

[Isimsiz Biri]

Wa ‘alaykum al-salaam.

 

Generally speaking, the Lataif are understood by Sufism to be the underlying differentiated qualities that pattern all of reality.

 

Specifically (and closest to our own human experience), they pattern emotions. Every human emotion can definitely be understood as having its ultimate source in one or more Lataif.

 

What puzzles me . . . is how the Lataif pattern physiological processes specifically.

 

In general terms, it's possible to identify certain Lataif in the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems . . . in the physiological components of sexuality . . . and so on.

 

But what the conscious/intentional interface might be between specific Lataif . . . and specific physiological processes . . . is very unclear to me.

 

I'm guessing . . . that maybe the Chi Body could be such an interface.

 

The experience of the (general) Chi Body . . . and the experience of undifferentiated Presence (in which all the Lataif are implicit) . . . seem very similar to me.

 

If I had some experience of the (general) Chi Body differentiating into specific qualities of Chi . . . then there'd be some hope of mapping them to the differentiated qualties of Presence (which are the Lataif).

 

But I'm not sure (as I've said before) whether those maps actually overlap in that functional way . . . or not.

 

It's very interesting . . .

 

P.S. As I understand it, my transmission of the Lataif is third generation, from an order in Iran in the 1970s (probably Ni'matullāhī, although I can't say definitely . . .).

 

In Naqsbandi order, there are some information from founder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baha-ud-Din_Naqshband_Bukhari but these are high level information. Apart from general info, you can not find sources about chakras and lataifs in sufism.

 

Unfortunately, there are many wrong information too.

 

It is the most secret topic of Sufism.

 

I can say that the Hindu system of chakrar are not the correct location of chakras.

 

Neither the Sufi systems locates the chakras correctly.

 

The reason is simple, there are numerous important energy points which are not chakras.

 

Hindu, Daoist, Sufi are showing different chakras.

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

I find that different spiritual traditions . . . don't seem to map the same territory.

 

And my suspicion is that no higher "map of maps" . . . is actually possible. Although Id love to be proven wrong.

 

My primary practice in the past has been Sufism. It's strong (nearly 100%) in its understanding of the emotions . . . but weak in its understanding of the physical body.

 

So I've begun studying Qigong. It, in turn, is strong in its understanding of the physical body . . . but weak in its understanding of emotions.

 

Bottom line: I'd be interested to hear if anyone has come to any understanding of how the Lataif, specifically, pattern the physical body. I just don't see it clearly at all.

 

If QiGong had a more well-articulated understanding of emotions . . . we could get from the Lataif to the emotions (via Sufism) . . . and then from the emotions to the physical body (via QiGong).

 

But so far I haven't see anything like that . . .

 

Thanks.

 

From what I have found/experienced the various medical qigong systems address emotions, blockages and so forth extremely well, and it is a major part of the practice. Hard to get qi to flow if stuff is in the way .

[Lataif]

From what I have found/experienced the various medical qigong systems address emotions, blockages and so forth extremely well, and it is a major part of the practice. Hard to get qi to flow if stuff is in the way .

 

Yes . . . but with a caveat. Let's consider an analogy (analogy time!!!! . . .).

 

Let's imagine that each of our lives is like a canvas.

 

Now QiGong . . . is certainly really good at clearing the canvas. Or maybe even . . . clearing it and leaving it with a nice, clean, shiny primer. Great (!)

 

But what if . . . we don't want to just clear the canvas (?)

What if . . . we want to make a painting (?)

What if . .. we want to pick and choose certain colors in our unique and individual way (?)

We want them to be clean and un-muddied colors . . . but we still want the colors to be there (!)

 

QiGong . . . doesn't seem so good at that (in my experience).

 

It's one difference between Eastern and Western sensibility/understanding . . . about what the purpose of our individual lives might be.

 

Michael Winn's perspective on QiGong (for example) . . . partially addresses this.

[al.]