Neidan vs Qigong

[opendao]

Some people misunderstood classic texts and start to build their own systems, based on false assumptions. It leads to a very important issue, discussed many times in the Daoist books: Neidan (Inner Alchemy) vs Qigong (or similar practices with many different names).

 

The main difference between these two is that they work with absolutely different substances.

Neidan works with Yuan (Primordial) Jing, Qi and Shen

Qigong works with Post-Heaven Jing, Qi and Shen.

 

Qigong methods are well known: standing and sitting meditation, dynamic exercises, Dao Yin, various work with imagination. There are many books and video about it.

 

Neidan methods are kept in secret. It creates a false illusion that it's possible to use Qigong-like exercises to get the results, described in Neidan books.

 

For example, let's discuss the first stage, Building the Foundation. At this stage in Neidan, in spite of the school, students restore Yuan Jing, using special, Xian Tian (Pre-Heaven) based methods. To understand that, you need to be accepted as an indoor student in any orthodox school, that preserved methods to restore Jing.

 

Let's see now how Qigong practioners understand the Neidan texts:

 

 

 

Zhang San Feng said: 凝神调息，调息凝神, 八个字，就是下手工夫 - "Concentrate the Shen [spirit] and regulate and harmonize the breath, regulate and harmonize the breath and concentrate the Shen is the first step to Gong Fu [mastership]."

 

Any Neidan practioner can understand, based on the experience, that Zhang Sanfeng couldn't mean here that somebody needs to use "regulate and harmonize the breath" as the method. Because there are explicit warnings against that. And we see that nowhere in the text Zhang Sanfeng writes about HOW, and using what methods, somebody is supposed to regulate the breath. From the practice we know that Neidan methods regulate the breath as a post result. And that the key to understand this part.

 

 

 

存心者，坚固城郭，不使房屋倒坍，卽筑基也 - "Preserving the heart-mind means, construction and strengthening of the city walls, so houses will not collapse, this is Building the foundation."

 

This is used as a prove that Building the Foundation phase has Qigong-like method, described as "Preserving the heart-mind". Again, knowing what this stage is about, by experiencing it directly, we are able to understand that "preserving the heart mind" is a result of the stage, but not a practice.

 

Conclusion: there are no Qigong methods in Neidan, so nobody can fool other people and teach Qigong methods using Neidan terminology.

It's easy to be confused by classic texts, that is why it was said: "Impossible to find a teacher without understanding the books; Impossible to understand the books without a teacher".

[ChiDragon]

The main difference between these two is that they work with absolutely different substances.

Neidan works with Yuan (Primordial) Jing, Qi and Shen

Qigong works with Post-Heaven Jing, Qi and Shen.

I think the above needs some clarification. Is there any common factor between in both methods to the best of your understanding......???

Can you clarify this: "Qigong works with Post-Heaven Jing, Qi and Shen.".....???

[Wells]

Very interesting thread so far!

[opendao]

 

 

I think the above needs some clarification. Is there any common factor between in both methods to the best of your understanding......???

 

 

No, there is nothing in common: different goals, different methods

 

Can you clarify this: "Qigong works with Post-Heaven Jing, Qi and Shen.".....???

 

Post-Heaven Jing = sexual Jing-essense

Post-Heaven Qi = energy we get from breath and food

Post-Heaven Shen = mind, consciousness, sub-consciousness

 

Different Qigong sets use mind, imagination, positions, movements, breathing, to follow normal (for this world) Hou Tian process that make post-Heaven Jing, Qi, Shen healthy and powerful, but exhaust Pre-Heaven treasures.

[opendao]

Do you teach people neidan?

 

a little

[soaring crane]

DNA and the endocrine system vs. the grilled salmon you had for lunch.

[ChiDragon]

No, there is nothing in common: different goals, different methods

 

 

Post-Heaven Jing = sexual Jing-essense

Different Qigong sets use mind, imagination, positions, movements, breathing, to follow normal (for this world) Hou Tian process that make post-Heaven Jing, Qi, Shen healthy and powerful, but exhaust Pre-Heaven treasures.

 

Aren't we started on the wrong foot.......!!!

[opendao]

DNA and the endocrine system vs. the grilled salmon you had for lunch.

 

I agree about salmon but not about DNA

[opendao]

what is Yuan (Primordial) Jing, Qi and Shen?

 

Yang Jing and Yuan Qi are the real reasons why people live and can give life;

when Yuan Qi is out - people die.

 

Yuan Shen is a real governor of Yuan Qi, and the reason why people can have a consciousness.

 

People can not directly feel, see and understand Yuan Qi and Shen.

 

Who knows about Xing and Ming and how they are related to Qi and Shen?

Edited November 5, 2013 by opendao

[dawei]

Who knows about Xing and Ming and how they are related to Qi and Shen?

 

We explored that a little bit here:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/25984-xing-and-ming-essence-and-life-in-the-ddj/

 

I had written:

Foundations of Inner Alchemy: Awakening to Reality

Zhang Boduan’s works show that, in his view,

1) the first stage of the alchemical practice (“laying the foundations”) consists of the dual cultivation of Xing (Nature) and Ming (Life).

2) The second stage (“refining Essence to transmute it into Breath”) emphasizes the work on Ming.

3) In the third stage (“refining Breath to transmute it into Spirit”), the work on Xing has priority on the work on Ming.

4) Finally, in the fourth stage (“refining Spirit to return to Emptiness”) one works only on Xing.

-- Fabrizio Pregadio

 

 

But glad to be corrected or given a simpler explanation... your pre-heaven and post-heaven explanations in regards to different goals and different methods are correct, IMO.

[Antares]

Different Qigong sets use mind, imagination, positions, movements, breathing, to follow normal (for this world) Hou Tian process that make post-Heaven Jing, Qi, Shen healthy and powerful, but exhaust Pre-Heaven treasures.

 

Hi, opendao. Thank you for your posts. Could you elaborate a little more this statement on depleting Pre-Heaven essence in qigong sets which do not use visualizations and intensive breath and vigor movements and so on. For example in taichi forms there are slow fluent motions which could build and regulate Post- Heaven qi. What is a cause of depletion Pre-Heaven essence in such cases? I believe it would be so if one does some strenuous actions which go over somebody's limits what requires Pre-heaven qi to remove stress and bring body-mind back to balance but if is done within boundaries of normal mindful activities why it will have negative consequences for Yuan Qi? Every time when we build Hou Tian we deplete Xiang Tian?

P.s. Edited later: I see what you mean: the intensive work with Hou Tian (even for health and power issues) hastens the depletion of Originate essence. And it seems that your point is that there is no need to build Hou Tian prior to have experience with Xian Tian. But there is simple issue - if one has weak post heaven qi and one's body is sick or unbalanced how to find way to Xian Tian not having healthy post heaven mind and body? Is it anything about "transmission" which is not in Qigong systems?

Edited November 6, 2013 by Antares

[exorcist_1699]

Although from time to time, there is always someone who stands out and points out some common misconception in people's understanding of Taoism , it seems a rough summary ­­ of them is helpful :

1) The Micro cosmic circulation that most prevailing qigong adopt , which makes use of qi existing in our organs and the meridians, grants us no eternal life; the most of its effect is to help us curing some diseases or becoming a little younger ; because of this, even we do that kind of MCC for 100 years, we still can't become an immortal.

2) Neidan is different from qigong, more precisely speaking , different from those varied kinds of medical qigong we can easily come across in the West ; the key is , whenever we mention ' dan', it refers to something that can ultimately solve the key issue of our life, not those relatively minor issues : cancers, AIDS..etc;

3) Dantian is not any kind of acupuncture point, it is nothing already existing there; in fact, different from acupuncture points that exist even when we are in a status of sleeping , dantian appears only after our having reached certain level in our practice.

4)Pre-heavenly and post- heavenly qi is not classified by the time sequence: One exists earlier than other..;

5) Whenever we talk about Dual Cultivation , we mainly refer to the intercourse between Shen and qi, not between male and female; the prevailing sex practices , in whatever forms they appear , all work at the post-heavenly qi level , therefore hardly can they enhance our life force, but undermine it.

[Kasuku]

Okay... i see what you are saying.

First of all, yuan shen means light of realization. You use that shen to purify the qi.

Yuan jing means positive vitality stirring at living midnight where one uses shen to attend qi to circulate the orbit.

This sublimation creates yuan qi.

But, you also have internal and external medicine.

combination of yuan jing, yuan qi, and yuan shen naturally creates the golden pill.

 

so in qigong one circulates the orbit with the shen leaking, and the qi and jing impure. Therefore the most you can expect is increasing health

 

i guess thats the basic layout...

 

harmonizing the breath only stills the mind for the appearance of yuan shen, and fills the lower dantian with external qi, but when its stilled the true breathing can occur.

[Lataif]

The main difference between these two is that they work with absolutely different substances.

Neidan works with Yuan (Primordial) Jing, Qi and Shen

Qigong works with Post-Heaven Jing, Qi and Shen.

Wow.

"Absolutely" different (?)

Like in . . . completely, utterly, categorically . . . unrelated and unconnected (?)

[Wu Ming Jen]

Awesome thread opentao and I am glad you have pointed out the difference between Immortality training and energy exercises.

 

Many warnings about thinking vitality, energy and spirit are physical locations and the visualization among all other exercises of manipulation that have nothing to do with immortality training.

 

Thank you for a fresh breath of air to the current non spontaneous, contrived and manipulated exercises thought to achieve immortality which is so wrong and the confusion it brings to this forum.

 

Chi Gung has its purpose in this physical world and I practice regularly but it is not the method to the direct, open, transcendent way of immortality.

[Neophyte]

No, there is nothing in common: different goals, different methods

 

So when I begin to practice Taoist Yoga (Luk) seriously, should I give up my qigong practices? Or should I do them concurrently?

 

Post-Heaven Jing = sexual Jing-essense

Post-Heaven Qi = energy we get from breath and food

Post-Heaven Shen = mind, consciousness, sub-consciousness

 

This is something that confuses me:

 

Is Post-Heaven Jing semen? What then is Pre-Heaven Jing?

 

According to Taoist Yoga, sexual release converts primordial (positive) chi into jing. (Is it negative or positive jing?) It also converts positive jing into negative jing which is ejaculated. So does positive shen (pre-heaven, primordial) get converted into positive chi? Or negative shen? Or does it not change at all?

 

The first step in Nei Dan is to produce positive jing. When this is full, one is to cleanse and purify it in the mco, then sublimate it into positive chi. When positive chi is full, one is to cleanse and purify it in the mco (inner copulation). The inner copulation also sublimates positive chi into positive shen. Is what I just wrote correct?

 

If you can clarify this for me, please do. But if you can't, that's okay. I'm hoping that somebody can help clarify this for me, though.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Neophyte

[xor]

A question to to all: having qigong as a base do you think it can be harmful to learning neidan, a useful basic excercises to build on or completely unrelated? I think the first view was expressed in another neidan thread which is why I ask.

 

edit: nice timing Neophyte, we basically asked the same question

Edited November 6, 2013 by xor

[Wu Ming Jen]

This may help, Chi gung for physical awesomeness, Nei gung is immortality training, internal alchemy, in this case Jing has nothing to do with a physical substance produced by the body. Intercourse is that of essence and life.There is nothing to manipulate or regulate.

 

Cook yin and yang like how cooking transform things in the material world but it is not a physical substance produced. Internal alchemy can only be taught with a direct transmission by a Master, it is a personal matter and not for discussion for the most part.

[soaring crane]

I agree about salmon but not about DNA

 

Why not, specifically?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Though I agree that qigong and neidan work with different sides of the pre and post heaven states, there may be error in saying that they can't work on both.

 

To cultivate elixer, the foremost requirement is a pre-heaven state of mind, being without thoughts and desires. Being pure attention. This state of mind can be maintained during qi gong practices, which results in that practice also leading the stability of xing and ming, and retrieving Xian Tian energies.

 

I know that many will read this and say "no way, it's far to difficult for that," however, this is consistent with the vast majority of Neidan literature written by Quanzhen patriarchs.

 

I'll provide some sayings from Ma Danyang below to illustrate my point. There are many more which consistently advocate simply clearing and calming the mind to stabilize energies and cultivate enlightenment, but I'll have to be brief in quotations here.

 

from Taoist Meditation, edited and tr. by Thomas Cleary:

 

 

"Learning the Way is a matter of self-enlightenment. Failure to realize enlightenment is caused by ignorance. If you want to break through ignorance, first clean your mind.
This is a matter of purifying and calming it until it is perfectly clear.
When you succeed at this you attain fulfillment. You do not necessarily need to ask another for instruction."

"If people can master the path of purity and serenity, that is most excellent. Therefore scripture says, "If people can always be pure and serene, heaven and earth will resort to them."
This "heaven and earth" does not mean the external sky and ground. It refers to the heaven and earth in the body.
Above the solar plexus is called heaven, below the solar plexus is called earth. If the energy of heaven descends and the vessel of earth opens, so that there is harmony above and below, then vitality and energy spontaneously stabilize."

"The substance of the Way is no mind, the application is forgetting words.

The basis is softness, the foundation is purity and serenity.
If it is to be carried out among people, it is necessary to be moderate in eating and drinking, to stop musing and mulling, to sit quietly to tune your breathing, and to sleep peacefully to nurture energy.
When your mind does not race, then your nature is stable.
When your body is not belabored, then your vitality is complete.
When your spirit is not disturbed, the elixir crystallizes.
After that you extinguish feelings in emptiness and settlethe spirit in the absolute.
This can be called attainment of the subtle Way without leaving home."

"Clarity and purity mean clarifying the mind source and purifying the energy ocean.
When the mind source is clear, external things cannot disturb it, so feelings settle and spiritual illumination takes place.
When the energy ocean is pure, wrong desires cannot affect it, so vitality is complete and the belly is full.
So clarify mind as you would clarify water; nurture nonvolatile energy as you would nurture an infant.
When nonvolatile energy blossoms, the spirit is effective.
When the spirit is effective, nonvolatile energy transmutes.
This is effected by clarity and purity. If you practice conscious, deliberate exercises, these are limited techniques.

If you practice the principle of mindless noncontrivance, this is unlimited clear emptiness."

 

 

I'll have to stop there for quotations, but this is the line of teaching I've come across consistently when studying the writings of patriarchs. More often than not, I see them saying that the mechanism is simple like this, and that complicated instructions are wayward paths of neidan.

 

Thus, if cultivating the clarity and attention of mind and spirit, and dissolving self differentiation, is an integral part of a qigong system, that system, imho, could also be called nedian practice.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[xor]

This may help, Chi gung for physical awesomeness, Nei gung is immortality training, internal alchemy, in this case Jing has nothing to do with a physical substance produced by the body. Intercourse is that of essence and life.There is nothing to manipulate or regulate.

 

Cook yin and yang like how cooking transform things in the material world but it is not a physical substance produced. Internal alchemy can only be taught with a direct transmission by a Master, it is a personal matter and not for discussion for the most part.

 

These are definitions that make sense to me, thank you. The part about a master, I have accepted that it is not something to start on my own.

[Vitalii]

Qigong

Qigong practice is designed for the body recovery, and it works out the energy system, breathing and consciousness, which in turn prepares a person to practice a higher level.

Qigong is a complex of exercises for work with the vital force, the purpose of which is to restore the normal circulation of Qi in the body, accumulate an additional amount of it and, as a result, make the human body more healthy and harmonious on all levels – physical (body) , emotional (emotions, feelings) and mental (thoughts).

 

Neidan

Inner Alchemy (内丹 – Neidan) is a set of higher level methods, which are based on meditative practices (打坐 – Dazuo) suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo). Their purpose is the spiritual development of a person that helps to understand oneself.
Working with original treasures Yuan Jing, Yuan Qi and Yuan Shen, and using special practices, the person fuses together in ones body a special formation – the Elixir of Immortality (金丹 – Jindan)
Methods of Inner Alchemy will help to return to the roots, to touch original (“divine”) nature and direct own knowledge to understanding and connection with the truth (with Dao).

___________________

 

The fundamental difference between Neidan and Qigong is that the usual methods of Qigong can work with usual kinds of energy, heal the body, balance the circulation of energy and achieve control over your feelings and emotions, whereas Inner Alchemy methods allow you to work not only with usual energy and ordinary consciousness, but with the original energy and original spirit.

___________________

A person needs to learn how to work with Post-Heaven Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with Pre-Heaven Qi.

 

Work with Post-Heaven Qi is essential, as it prepares a practitioner for the next step, videlicet work with Pre-Heaven Qi. However, to feel and work with Pre-Heaven Qi, one needs to employ Inner Alchemy methods, and not Qigong.

[opendao]

Wow.

"Absolutely" different (?)

Like in . . . completely, utterly, categorically . . . unrelated and unconnected (?)

 

yep. Absolutely. I know it's hard to take, but it's true.

[opendao]

Why not, specifically?

 

DNA has material form, Yuan Qi is not in material form. But the scale you use is very close to traditional understanding.

[opendao]

A question to to all: having qigong as a base do you think it can be harmful to learning neidan, a useful basic excercises to build on or completely unrelated? I think the first view was expressed in another neidan thread which is why I ask.

 

edit: nice timing Neophyte, we basically asked the same question

 

Good Qigong is not harmful for Neigong till a certain level, after which such things are prohibited, because they stop further practice in Neidan. My main point that Qigong is not necessary for Neidan. It's possible to achieve Neidan results using Neidan only