Neidan vs Qigong

[dawei]

 

1) "是以日出当用艮卦之时，以养元气。

勿以利名动其心，勿以好恶介其意。

Do not let rich and famous to tempt your heart, do not let good or evil enter your conscience.

 

披衣静坐，以养其气；

Zazen with a clothes lay on the shoulders to maintain the Chi.

绝念忘情，微作引导。

Get rid of desire and forget your feelings as a good start.

手脚递互，伸缩三五下，使四体之气齐生，内保元气上升以朝于心府"

Cross your hands and legs(Lotus position) ......

 

Mutually alternate the arms and legs, extend and contract three to five times. Let the Chi to be produced in the arms and legs. Internally, keep the Yuan Chi ascend toward the heart.

 

 

盘膝坐 = Lotus position

 

It is good to see someone attempt a translation but Vitalii said this was a 'motionless' description and yet it now turns into motion... So it seems it went from Neigong to Waigong to Qigong by changing a line's meaning. Based on this meaning, it would no longer be alchemy neigong, IMO.

 

And I think 心府 may be code for the middle dan tian (energy center) and not just heart.

 

The key to the passage is seeing that Yuan Qi 元气 is mentioned... this means it cannot be understood as translation/meaning in Qigong or Waigong terms... JMO.

[ChiDragon]

JMO.......good

There is no JMO on my part. It was straightly linguistic understanding.

心府 means just "heart" in classics. This term is used for expression in a deeper meaning and sounds more poetic by advanced scholars.

Edited November 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

 

I described shortly the correct method of Neidan. Comparing with Qigong, we can see that Qigong cannot be used beyond the preparatory phase of Neidan.

Teacher of Single Yang:

Any qigong is just an accessory method in the preparatory phase of Taoist alchemy and any kind of qigong can’t go beyond the preparatory stage of the elixir way.

Do you also equate this to 'doing' is foundational work or even Qigong and 'non-doing' is the alchemy work of Ming and Xing?

[Vitalii]

Immortal Zhonglí Quan in Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) said about Alchemy meditative practice.

Zhonglí Quan said about Alchemy work during sitting cross-legged [盘膝坐] in a motionless calmness and silence [静坐 - Jing zuo]:

1) 金液还丹，当于深密幽房，... 烧香迭掌盘膝坐

 

金 - golden
液 - fluid
还 - to return
丹 - elixir

 

当 - to be
于 - in
深 - deep
密 - secret
幽 - quiet
房 - room / house

 

烧 - to burn

香 - fragrant sticks
迭掌 - to clasp hands / to put one's palms together
盘膝坐 - sitting cross-legged

 

2) "终日静坐，其炼如前"

 

终日 - all day long

静坐 - meditation / Jing zuo - sitting in a motionless calmness and silence

 

炼 - to refine / to smelt

如 - such as
前 - before

 

3) 当静坐内观

当 - to be

静坐 - meditation / Jing zuo - sitting in a motionless calmness and silence
内观 - looking within / introspect / inner observation

 

________________________

 

At first: "mutually alternate the arms and legs, extend and contract three to five times..."
After that:

 

2) 以聚元气 入室静坐

以 - to use

聚 - to congregate / to assemble / to gather together

元气 - Yuan Qi, Original Qi

入 - to enter
室 - room

静坐 - meditation, Jing zuo - sitting in a motionless calmness and silence

Edited November 10, 2013 by Vitalii

[ChiDragon]

Immortal Zhonglí Quan in Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) said about Alchemy meditative practice.

 

Zhonglí Quan said about Alchemy work during sitting cross-legged [盘膝坐] in a motionless calmness and silence [静坐 - Jing zuo]:

 

1) 金液还丹，当于深密幽房，... 烧香迭掌盘膝坐

 

金 - golden

液 - fluid

还 - to return

丹 - elixir

 

当 - to be

于 - in

深 - deep

密 - secret

幽 - quiet

房 - room / house

 

烧 - to burn

香 - fragrant sticks

迭掌 - to clasp hands / to put one's palms together

盘膝坐 - sitting cross-legged

 

金液还丹，当于深密幽房，... 烧香迭掌盘膝坐

To practice the alchemy, it should be done in a secluded quiet room,.......burn incense, stack the hands and do lotus sitting.

 

Edited November 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

2) "终日静坐，其炼如前"

 

终日 - all day long

静坐 - meditation / Jing zuo - sitting in a motionless calmness and silence

 

炼 - to refine / to smelt / to practice

如 - such as

前 - before

 

"终日静坐，其炼如前"

Zazen all day long, practice as above/before.

Edited November 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

3) 当静坐内观

当 - to be / during

静坐 - meditation / Jing zuo - sitting in a motionless calmness and silence

内观 - looking within / introspect / inner observation

 

During Zazen, look inward.

[ChiDragon]

At first: "mutually alternate the arms and legs, extend and contract three to five times..."

After that:

 

2) 以聚元气 入室静坐

以 - to use

聚 - to congregate / to assemble / to gather together

元气 - Yuan Qi, Original Qi

入 - to enter

室 - room

静坐 - meditation, Jing zuo - sitting in a motionless calmness and silence

 

2) 以聚元气 入室静坐

To gather Yuan Chi, perform Zazen within a room.

 

[dawei]

JMO.......good

 

There is no JMO on my part. It was straightly linguistic understanding.

 

心府 means just "heart" in classics. This term is used for expression in a deeper meaning and sounds more poetic by advanced scholars.

 

This has nothing to do with scholars... they seek surface meaning, translate and are walking through the maze of alchemy meaning.

 

The issue is understanding in an alchemy manner... not a linguistic manner. A dictionary can do that.

[ChiDragon]

This has nothing to do with scholars... they seek surface meaning, translate and are walking through the maze of alchemy meaning.

 

The issue is understanding in an alchemy manner... not a linguistic manner. A dictionary can do that.

 

I would say both. Let stop this. We are going nowhere with this.

[dawei]

I would say both. Let stop this. We are going nowhere with this.

 

You can stop anytime you realize.

 

The topic is the difference between qigong and neigong... based on lineage, experience, etc... masters...

 

It is like people watching a game and claiming they can explain the experience of playing the game. This is playing a game itself.

 

If you want to write about the importance of scholars over experience, you should just start a thread on that.

[dawei]

Dawei.....

This is for your eyes only.

 

It's one thing to start spamming your own topics... but you want to do it in other people's topic. Just stick to topic. If you are unclear what it is, then ask the OP.

[Protector]

Almost reaching a derail territory here

[Neophyte]

You are not following what I said: There is no Ming work in "quite sitting" of any kind.

 

"Quite sitting" is a known and well defined method in Qigong (good for heart), in Chan Buddhism (well defined by 6th patriarch) etc. But there is no Ming there, because physically such exercise cannot change anything in Ming, except the fact that you're exhausting your Jing. So you are trying to invent something and then prove it by texts, that were written about other stages, about other methods, or even were addresses to non-initiated people. What's a point of such hard work? Prove to yourself that by sitting you can achieve Neidan results? You can try it without it. It's your health, it's your fate, take a risk and jump.

 

Just remember about this warning

"In the world there is a kind of method of practising «alchemy» in the form of sitting silently, muttering the spells or prayers or their own various practices of sitting. Practitioners of them completely don’t understand that it is absolutely useless and does not lead to any result. This sitting (meditation) is called «枯禪» - a withered contemplation, withered Chan. In the Taoism is often said that "the movement causes Yang" and "the immobility causes Yin", "pure Yang is a Xian (immortal)", "pure Yin is a Gui (a devil, a ghost).” If you sit in Dazuo (a sitting practice in the lotus or a cross-legged practice, a meditation), it is a false calmness, the continuation of this process causes Yin to grow, and the longer the sitting will last, the paler and the flabbier the face will become and the more worse the health and condition of body will be. Then the Yang jing cannot be retained in the body and will be scattered outside.

 

The seeker of the spiritual practice! First think about an amount of the jing you have, so you're not afraid to exhaust it by sitting, to die even without knowing that it will happen from your practice, unknowingly destroy your soul by an unreasonable predilection of a profane teaching? If this happens, it will be truly sad!"

 

Therefore, the true alchemy school does not teach the sitting dazuo, the followers of Wu Chung-xu and Liu Hua-yang do not practice it.

 

Remember: the sitting gives rise to yin, and yin leads to the death.

 

opendao:

 

This might be technically true; however, Taoist Yoga says that one must persist in dazuo while condensing spirit into its cavity. After long training, when one has restored the generative force, in this absolute silence and stillness of dazuo, the positive principle will manifest, causing the penis to erect: This is yang manifesting.

 

It is after this point, if one continues to practice neidan properly and successfully (as described in TY), that one can slowly restore the body to yang, while reducing yin!

 

So while what you warned about may be true, it is necessary to pass through this stage in order to nurture the positive principle to manifest. It is like taking one step back in order to take two steps forward.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Thanks, I will visit Wudang prolly next Spring.

Don't want to come across as a blunt knucklehead, but as far as I know, real teachings are not to be sold, not sure what exactly you guys teach to foreigners. Expensive is not okay either, I'm just a student, not a businessman

7 hours a day training, few can last.

[dwai]

Yang Jing and Yuan Qi are the real reasons why people live and can give life;

when Yuan Qi is out - people die.

 

Yuan Shen is a real governor of Yuan Qi, and the reason why people can have a consciousness.

 

People can not directly feel, see and understand Yuan Qi and Shen.

 

Who knows about Xing and Ming and how they are related to Qi and Shen?

According to Master Waysun Liao, Yuan Chi (he also refers to it as One Chi) can felt, understood and tuned to, by purifying Chi, making it vibrate faster and faster till it resonates with the frequency of Yuan Chi (and thereby full rediscovery of one's Te - which he doesn't translate as "Virtue" but rather as an energetic pattern, an image of Yuan Chi that every being has).

[ChiDragon]

Yang Jing and Yuan Qi are the real reasons why people live and can give life;

when Yuan Qi is out - people die.

 

Without food and oxygen to nourish the Yang Jing and Yuan Chi, nothing lives.

[dwai]

 

Without food and oxygen to nourish the Yang Jing and Yuan Chi, nothing lives.

Yuan Chi is the primordial energy...it is Dao. It doesn't need food or water or oxygen.

[ChiDragon]

Good luck then.

[opendao]

Yuan Chi is the primordial energy...it is Dao. It doesn't need food or water or oxygen.

 

That's right, to nourish Yuan Qi and Jing food or water or oxygen are not needed.

[ChiDragon]

That's right, to nourish Yuan Qi and Jing food or water or oxygen are not needed.

Stop your breathing and let's see how long you'll stay alive.

[Antares]

According to Master Waysun Liao, Yuan Chi (he also refers to it as One Chi) can felt, understood and tuned to, by purifying Chi, making it vibrate faster and faster till it resonates with the frequency of Yuan Chi

 

Does he teach Yuan Chi method in his books?

[Brian]

Stop your breathing and let's see how long you'll stay alive.

 

Chop off your head and see how long you live...

 

Then posit on how anaerobic life lives...

 

[dwai]

Does he teach Yuan Chi method in his books?

It is essentially about Yuan Chi. All Taiji Chuan and Chi Gong is about reconnecting with Yuan Chi

[ChiDragon]

Chop off your head and see how long you live... Then posit on how anaerobic life lives...

Can anyone be more reasonable than that as a rebuttal for an argument......???

Edited November 12, 2013 by ChiDragon