Neidan vs Qigong

[xor]

There was a new rule made on TTB against spamming. Let's not turn this one into a oneliner spamfest and keep focus on the topic at hand.

[ChiDragon]

Might as well we all shut up then.

Edited November 12, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Brian]

Can anyone be more reasonable than that as a rebuttal for an argument......???

On the contrary, CD, it is a clear refutation. You claim that oxygen is the answer and your proof is that deprivation of oxygen ends life. I counter by pointing out that oxygen is not the unique requisite you think it is, either for human life or for life in general.

 

I could have pointed out, instead, that much of Earth's life considers life to be a toxin rather than nourishment.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Brian

[Antares]

It is essentially about Yuan Chi. All Taiji Chuan and Chi Gong is about reconnecting with Yuan Chi

 

In theory yes, but practically it's always better to have a teacher who can guide you. But his DVDs seem great. Normally they start off with yuan jing and they say transmission is the must. Only alchemy replenishes yuan jing. It's like secret method and cannot be transmitted through book or video they say. Not sure about yuan qi (yuan jing nourishes yuan qi but may be the other way around). Does he cover this theory in his books? (Sometime they can only tell it is what you can get but how it works in reality?)

[ChiDragon]

On the contrary, CD, it is a clear refutation. You claim that oxygen is the answer and your proof is that deprivation of oxygen ends life. I counter by pointing out that oxygen is not the unique requisite you think it is, either for human life or for life in general.

 

I could have pointed out, instead, that much of Earth's life considers life to be a toxin rather than nourishment.

That still doesn't hold water on your part. I was referring to human life. That is what we are talking about, here, about cultivation for longevity, no......???

Edited November 12, 2013 by ChiDragon

[opendao]

opendao:

 

This might be technically true; however, Taoist Yoga says that one must persist in dazuo while condensing spirit into its cavity. After long training, when one has restored the generative force, in this absolute silence and stillness of dazuo, the positive principle will manifest, causing the penis to erect: This is yang manifesting.

 

It is after this point, if one continues to practice neidan properly and successfully (as described in TY), that one can slowly restore the body to yang, while reducing yin!

 

So while what you warned about may be true, it is necessary to pass through this stage in order to nurture the positive principle to manifest. It is like taking one step back in order to take two steps forward.

 

You can try, at least once. I don't recommend. I see nothing here related to the traditional practice. And erecting penis is very far from restoring Yuan Jing, from real Yang needed for Neidan.

[dwai]

In theory yes, but practically it's always better to have a teacher who can guide you. But his DVDs seem great. Normally they start off with yuan jing and they say transmission is the must. Only alchemy replenishes yuan jing. It's like secret method and cannot be transmitted through book or video they say. Not sure about yuan qi (yuan jing nourishes yuan qi but may be the other way around). Does he cover this theory in his books? (Sometime they can only tell it is what you can get but how it works in reality?)

There is no shortcut. I've been learning with my Sifu for more than a decade now and every day it seems I know less. But I guess that is a good thing, since the cup must be "really" empty to learn well.

 

He covers some of this in his books and material, however his system is not heavy on terminology and words. It is a very practical and simple system. You don't have to learn 10,000 forms...you need to learn a handful and with the right training and mindset, to great results, imho.

 

Also, the material is repeatedly refined. As it should with such things

Edited November 12, 2013 by dwai

[Brian]

CD, are you still maintaining that "chi is all about breathing oxygen" even though much of life as we know it does not breathe oxygen? Are you supposing that chi is uniquely human or that the Tao depends on humans?

Edited November 12, 2013 by Brian

[ChiDragon]

........ I was referring to human life. That is what we are talking about, here, about cultivation for longevity, no......???

[Brian]

My bad, I guess. I didn't realize this thread limited the concept of cultivation to simply attempting to prolong human life.

 

It still isn't about oxygen but my interest isn't longevity so I'll bow out...

Edited November 12, 2013 by Brian

[xor]

ChiDragon I tried to be diplomatic about not spamming, but you still continue and derail the thread. Consider this a steward warning to stop spam and quoting your own oneliners here is the same. You may feel strongly about qi being just breathing and literal modern understanding being superior but that doesn't excuse you to try ruin the discussion for everyone.

Edited November 13, 2013 by xor

[Neophyte]

You can try, at least once. I don't recommend. I see nothing here related to the traditional practice. And erecting penis is very far from restoring Yuan Jing, from real Yang needed for Neidan.

 

For now, I'm still going to pursue this path, until someone can redirect me to something better.

 

You said that it doesn't look at all related to the traditional practice, so where can I go to actually find a traditional practice that will instruct me in how to achieve immortality?

If TY isn't a traditional practice, then where did it come from? Do you think it has any value at all? If I practice it, will I be able to achieve the light of vitality in Chapter 6?

 

If an erect penis at tsu does not manifest yuan jing, then what does? Does the erection at tsu do anything at all, because everything in TY is based on that!

 

It's okay if you can't answer my questions, but If you can, or if anyone else can help answer my questions, I'd be very happy.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Neophyte

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon I tried to be diplomatic about not spamming, but you still continue and derail the thread. Consider this a warden warning to stop spam and quoting your own oneliners here is the same. You may feel strongly about qi being just breathing and literal modern understanding being superior but that doesn't excuse you to try ruin the discussion for everyone.

 

Thanks for the warning....

I was expexting the final word. My mission has ended. No one will hear a word from me about oxygen again.

[dawei]

If TY isn't a traditional practice, then where did it come from? Do you think it has any value at all? If I practice it, will I be able to achieve the light of vitality in Chapter 6?

 

You wanted to know about TY book...

At this other thread:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32406-building-the-foundation-and-inner-alchemy/page-9#entry495627

 

 

 

"The Nanzong doctrines can be summed up in the phrase "first the vital force [Ming], then the inner nature [Xing]".

Emphasis lies first on the practice of increasing the vital force through methods of self-cultivation, and then on meditation to achieve enlightenment.

On the other hand, Quanzhen begins with meditation [Xing] and claims that the life-force [Ming] will be reinforced naturally.

 

These theoretical distinctions, however, are not always followed by individual masters or schools."

____________________

 

"The encyclopedia of Taoism" by Fabrizio Pregadio

 

 

OpenDao replied: "I've already told that idea of "Xing before Ming" is wrong. "

 

As was pointed out in the below thread about TY:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/23496-some-questions-about-taoist-yoga-microcosmic-orbit/

 

 

When beginning to cultivate Xing and Ming, it is necessary first to develop Xing. - p 1

 

 

This is why he advised to not continue with TY... TY promotes Xing before Ming...

Edited November 13, 2013 by dawei

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Opendao, can I ask you:

 

1) How long have you been studying at your school?

2) You said that real schools do not teach foreigners, but your school is in Russia, no? It doesn't teach white Russians?

3) Have you studied Taoist texts to any large extent?

4) Have you familiarized yourself with many various methods of jing, chi, and shen cultivation, and various Taoist breathing methods including reverse breathing and "sealing the locks," or did your experience in Taoist meditation methods begin with joining the school you are a part of?

 

I'm just trying to get a sense of your familiarity with what has actually been written about neidan and neidan methods.

[Vitalii]

"On the most basic level, Quanzhen meditation practice involves “stabilizing” (ding 定) the heart-mind. Concern over sensory phenomena must be reduced, desires must be calmed, and intellectual activity must be stilled. Through this process of meditative discipline, the Quanzhen adept could allow the heart-mind to return to its original condition, namely, a lodging place for spirit. The adept could return to innate nature, his or her original endowment from, connection with, and embodiment of the Dao".

Louis Komjathy

[opendao]

2) You said that real schools do not teach foreigners, but your school is in Russia, no? It doesn't teach white Russians?

 

Racist... I spoke about situation in China.

 

3) Have you studied Taoist texts to any large extent?

4) Have you familiarized yourself with many various methods of jing, chi, and shen cultivation, and various Taoist breathing methods including reverse breathing and "sealing the locks," or did your experience in Taoist meditation methods begin with joining the school you are a part of?

 

I'm just trying to get a sense of your familiarity with what has actually been written about neidan and neidan methods.

 

I have no familiarity with 3600 side methods and 10000 wrong methods. I just follow my teacher, trying to understand Neidan through practice first, and only then find something relevant in Classic Chinese texts. I've done some "usual" methods before, including breathing of different kind, "meditations" and even more scary practices. So what? Does it change anything to you? I don't think so. And I believe that my personality has no effect on you. Because what I write here, is a very very basic level, that you can easily understand and find proves in texts. Neidan is based on logic and critical thinking. You don't have to believe me by word. So do you have any questions about the topic? I haven't had yet a chance to read your DDJ explanation about Ming practices.

Edited November 13, 2013 by opendao

[opendao]

 

"On the most basic level, Quanzhen meditation practice involves “stabilizing” (ding 定) the heart-mind. Concern over sensory phenomena must be reduced, desires must be calmed, and intellectual activity must be stilled. Through this process of meditative discipline, the Quanzhen adept could allow the heart-mind to return to its original condition, namely, a lodging place for spirit. The adept could return to innate nature, his or her original endowment from, connection with, and embodiment of the Dao".

Louis Komjathy

 

So what? I don't see any reason to repeat again about preparatory work. Stop the spam. Btw, there are Quanzhen schools with no Ming method at all. Does it prove anything?

[ChiDragon]

 

"On the most basic level, Quanzhen meditation practice involves “stabilizing” (ding 定) the heart-mind. Concern over sensory phenomena must be reduced, desires must be calmed, and intellectual activity must be stilled. Through this process of meditative discipline, the Quanzhen adept could allow the heart-mind to return to its original condition, namely, a lodging place for spirit. The adept could return to innate nature, his or her original endowment from, connection with, and embodiment of the Dao".

Louis Komjathy

 

Is "stabilizing" the closest translation for 定.....???

I would like to hear your view on 定力.

Give examples to illustrate 定力 if you can.....!!!

 

If one would ask how is your 定力, how would you answer it....???

 

Edited November 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Racist... I spoke about situation in China.

 

 

I have no familiarity with 3600 side methods and 10000 wrong methods. I just follow my teacher, trying to understand Neidan through practice first, and only then find something relevant in Classic Chinese texts. I've done some "usual" methods before, including breathing of different kind, "meditations" and even more scary practices. So what? Does it change anything to you? I don't think so. And I believe that my personality has no effect on you. Because what I write here, is a very very basic level, that you can easily understand and find proves in texts. Neidan is based on logic and critic thinking. You don't have to believe me by word. So do you have any questions about the topic? I haven't had yet a chance to read your DDJ explanation about Ming practices.

I know that teachers can open "just the right" doors for us at "just the right" time, being like taking a train versus walking on foot.

 

However, I ask because there are so many things written down that, for all we know over the internet, you maybe just didn't read about the methods you've learned from your teacher anywhere, or haven't studied broadly enough in both ancient and modern sources to know whether they've been written down somewhere or not. If you haven't studied these texts broadly, it's hard to say that none of them provide full methods, when they consistently have language that says "this is the method."

[opendao]

I know that teachers can open "just the right" doors for us at "just the right" time, being like taking a train versus walking on foot.

 

However, I ask because there are so many things written down that, for all we know over the internet, you maybe just didn't read about the methods you've learned from your teacher anywhere, or haven't studied broadly enough in both ancient and modern sources to know whether they've been written down somewhere or not. If you haven't studied these texts broadly, it's hard to say that none of them provide full methods, when they consistently have language that says "this is the method."

 

If you read texts, that maybe you mentioned, that the fact that "methods were not described" is repeated very often. It's not just my humble opinion. My teacher says that. Teacher of my teacher says that. But what is the most important, when I read modern "explanations of methods", I see nothing even close to what works in Neidan (not exact method, but even the principle).

[LaoZiDao]

Opendao, thank you for this:

May I ask you to expand on the following?

1. Yuan Shen not equal to Yang Shen
- Can you explain the difference?
2. Shen cannot be converted to Qi
- Can you explain what is meant by melting Qi to Shen (练炁化神). If there is no conversion of Qi to Shen then what is the mechanism?
3. Yuan Qi = Yuan Jing. But their relationships are much more complicated
- Is it posslbe to expand more on their relationships and more details of what exactally Yuan Qi and Yuan Jing are, also if possible their relationship with Xing and Ming?

1) Yuan shen is not equal to Yang (Positive) Shen.

2) Shen cannot be converted to Qi (or vice versa).

3) Every moment of life we (humans) spend Yuan Qi to restore Houtian Qi (= Wei Qi, and some other energies neede for our body).

4) Same with Shen: we spend it through the process of consciousness.

5) when Yuan Jing exists, humans can (are able to) give birth. So for the sake of simplicity, we can say that Yuan Qi = Yuan Jing. But their relationships are much more complicated.

Thank you

[opendao]

May I ask you to expand on the following?

 

1. Yuan Shen not equal to Yang Shen

- Can you explain the difference?

 

 

Yuan Shen is what we get from birth. It is Yin.

When we practice, we joing Xing and Ming and it gives Yang to Shen, so it becomes Yangshen.

Yinshen is weak. That's what called "ghost".

 

2. Shen cannot be converted to Qi

- Can you explain what is meant by melting Qi to Shen (练炁化神). If there is no conversion of Qi to Shen then what is the mechanism?

 

Qi to Shen is correct. But not Shen to Qi

 

3. Yuan Qi = Yuan Jing. But their relationships are much more complicated

- Is it posslbe to expand more on their relationships and more details of what exactally Yuan Qi and Yuan Jing are, also if possible their relationship with Xing and Ming?

 

They both are Ming. Yuan Jing is a product of Yuan Qi, it generates before 14-16 years old, then we just spend it for our everyday activities.

[dawei]

Qi to Shen is correct. But not Shen to Qi

 

But Yuan Shen to Yuan Qi is the prenatal transition, yes?

 

They both are Ming. Yuan Jing is a product of Yuan Qi, it generates before 14-16 years old, then we just spend it for our everyday activities.

 

I had to read this a few times... not sure why... but I agree once I got the 'transitions' for prenatal and postnatal straight...

 

But as to the 14-16 years old... not sure why this particular time period. I can only come up with the 'root' chakra issues are 0-7 years and the Sacral (LDT) issues are 7-14 years, etc... so the Jing is developed into the reproductive area by this time (?). So it would seem to me that 12-14 should be the age but that might be pre-modernist times... maybe today it is shifting upwards...

[LaoZiDao]

Yuan Shen is what we get from birth. It is Yin.

When we practice, we joing Xing and Ming and it gives Yang to Shen, so it becomes Yangshen.

 

Thanks, then what is the difference between ordinary Shen and Yuan Shen?