Neidan vs Qigong

[opendao]

I only meant that in the 5,000 years of history, which past writings do you say reflect such teachings? My point was that Quanzhen is quite modern relative to the history... so it must be based on something. I would not suggest it made it all up.

 

My point is that different schools have shared the same principles and method because they all have one root. Lao Zi is an authority for all of them at least, even if you don't take Huang-Lao xue seriously, as many Western scientists mistakenly do.

 

And in any school there is a Neidan core and "many other things" around. Same for Quanzhen, the core is Neidan, then Wang added what he found appropriate for masses at that time.

 

Huang-Lao is not really ancient as it arose after all the writings I mentioned... it is the summation of thinking which joined Huang Di and Laozi into a philosophical thought, most notably found in the Huainanzi and the great historian Sima Qian was a follower of it.

 

it's a scientific point of view, not a traditional one... Only Western scientists/sinologists see "philosophical thought" everywhere... Daoxue was practical all the time in Chinese culture.

 

Basically Sima Qian is the end of era when Huang Lao Xue has started and flourished. He is alone source who used this term (Huang-Lao), but he just has collected all historical info about Huang Di and others, who have learnt, taught and practised Dao teaching at that time. But it's a good term for ancient Dao, for ancient practical method of Dao. Do you know any better?

 

I was suggesting, but I'll say it more explicitly: If you can't relate your current Ming methods, which specific writings of the past reflect neigong?

 

All classical books you've mentioned reflect Neidan... I suggested to start with later books (Longmen, Wu Liu, Quanzhen, Zhan Boduan), because it's easier to grasp for modern people, but if you grasp then you will see the same concepts even in many other teachings (not Dao).

 

Yinfujing is also a good example. Yijing if you want to feel the real "ancient lore"

 

You have said:

 

 

Ok... so spell it out from the DDJ

 

Is it so hard to search for specific words in the text?

 

Btw, what DDJ translation in English do you prefer?

[dawei]

Basically Sima Qian is the end of era when Huang Lao Xue has started and flourished. He is alone source who used this term (Huang-Lao), but he just has collected all historical info about Huang Di and others, who have learnt, taught and practised Dao teaching at that time. But it's a good term for ancient Dao, for ancient practical method of Dao. Do you know any better?

 

The Huainanzi is a rich source for this tradition. I accept the H-L term for what it is trying to convey but I think it is lost on most. I tend to like it because then one is reminded to not look at one book alone but the tradition.

 

 

All classical books you've mentioned reflect Neidan... I suggested to start with later books (Longmen, Wu Liu, Quanzhen, Zhan Boduan), because it's easier to grasp for modern people, but if you grasp then you will see the same concepts even in many other teachings (not Dao).

 

Yinfujing is also a good example. Yijing if you want to feel the real "ancient lore"

 

I prefer the older text but do have several of the later ones. I want the history of it sorted out first so I can see where the influences come from; I think most all of them are also influenced by Buddhism.

 

Btw, what DDJ translation in English do you prefer?

 

Over the years, I have not used any single translation but look at several in most cases.

 

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

 

But if I had to pick five I like to read for diversity:

 

Chan

Flowing Hands

Hinton

Ni

Ta-Kao

[dawei]

Is it so hard to search for specific words in the text?

 

No. I can anticipate several chapters you might suggest but maybe in the sub-forum it would be more appropriate anyways.

[RookieIAm]

Qigong

 

Qigong practice is designed for the body recovery, and it works out the energy system, breathing and consciousness, which in turn prepares a person to practice a higher level.

Qigong is a complex of exercises for work with the vital force, the purpose of which is to restore the normal circulation of Qi in the body, accumulate an additional amount of it and, as a result, make the human body more healthy and harmonious on all levels – physical (body) , emotional (emotions, feelings) and mental (thoughts).

 

Neidan

Inner Alchemy (内丹 – Neidan) is a set of higher level methods, which are based on meditative practices (打坐 – Dazuo) suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo). Their purpose is the spiritual development of a person that helps to understand oneself.

Working with original treasures Yuan Jing, Yuan Qi and Yuan Shen, and using special practices, the person fuses together in ones body a special formation – the Elixir of Immortality (金丹 – Jindan)

Methods of Inner Alchemy will help to return to the roots, to touch original (“divine”) nature and direct own knowledge to understanding and connection with the truth (with Dao).

___________________

 

The fundamental difference between Neidan and Qigong is that the usual methods of Qigong can work with usual kinds of energy, heal the body, balance the circulation of energy and achieve control over your feelings and emotions, whereas Inner Alchemy methods allow you to work not only with usual energy and ordinary consciousness, but with the original energy and original spirit.

___________________

A person needs to learn how to work with Post-Heaven Qi, because if one doesn't feel and work with [Post-Heaven] Qi, there is no way for one to do it with Pre-Heaven Qi.

 

Work with Post-Heaven Qi is essential, as it prepares a practitioner for the next step, videlicet work with Pre-Heaven Qi. However, to feel and work with Pre-Heaven Qi, one needs to employ Inner Alchemy methods, and not Qigong.

Interesting

[opendao]

Working with original treasures Yuan Jing, Yuan Qi and Yuan Shen, and using special practices, the person fuses together in ones body a special formation – the Elixir of Immortality (金丹 – Jindan)

 

Formation? But Neidan teachers tell it has no form...

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[ChiDragon]

Qigong

 

Qigong practice is designed for the body recovery, and it works out the energy system, breathing and consciousness, which in turn prepares a person to practice a higher level.

Qigong is a complex of exercises for work with the vital force, the purpose of which is to restore the normal circulation of Qi in the body, accumulate an additional amount of it and, as a result, make the human body more healthy and harmonious on all levels – physical (body) , emotional (emotions, feelings) and mental (thoughts).

 

Neidan

Inner Alchemy (内丹 – Neidan) is a set of higher level methods, which are based on meditative practices (打坐 – Dazuo) suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo). Their purpose is the spiritual development of a person that helps to understand oneself.

Working with original treasures Yuan Jing, Yuan Qi and Yuan Shen, and using special practices, the person fuses together in ones body a special formation – the Elixir of Immortality (金丹 – Jindan)

Methods of Inner Alchemy will help to return to the roots, to touch original (“divine”) nature and direct own knowledge to understanding and connection with the truth (with Dao).

___________________

 

The fundamental difference between Neidan and Qigong is that the usual methods of Qigong can work with usual kinds of energy, heal the body, balance the circulation of energy and achieve control over your feelings and emotions, whereas Inner Alchemy methods allow you to work not only with usual energy and ordinary consciousness, but with the original energy and original spirit.

___________________

 

You seem to have a deep understand of all these. May I just add a few comments.

 

Qigong can be practice alone as you've said. However, I see that Qigong is an essence for the health of the body; but, of course, I cannot rule out any of the good mental effects.

 

In the orther hand, I would say that Neidan is a Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming. Since Ming Gong is the cultivation of the body, I would say that Qigong is part of it.

Edited August 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[JinlianPai]

So you think that ming gong is qigong?

 

How can ming be acheived without alchemy?

 

And ming once cultivated how does that affect the xing is the xing a futher development of the ming?

 

What Im saying is how can ming be attained without it affecting the xing?

[ChiDragon]

So you think that ming gong is qigong?

 

How can ming be acheived without alchemy?

 

And ming once cultivated how does that affect the xing is the xing a futher development of the ming?

 

What Im saying is how can ming be attained without it affecting the xing?

 

No, I'm not saying that Ming Gong is Qi Gong. What I'm saying is Qi Gong helps in the process of Ming Gong. Ming Gong is the Cultivation of the Body. In other words, Qi Gong was doing all the work for the Ming Gong. Ming Gong is just a name given to the method for the cultivation of the body. There are lots of things are involved in Ming Gong which are very inclusive. Qi Gong is an independent method.

 

Ming is the physical body of a person. Xing is the mind of a person which is also the spirit of the person. It is the spirit that is directly affecting a person. The body may be indirectly affecting the spirit, but not directly. The combination of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming produce the result of alchemy. The final product of Neidan is to generate a better and healthier person. Hence, the person is really the dan(丹) that one wants to produce.

[LaoZiDao]

You have managed to post a lot of empty words, based on your own assumptions and conclusions, with no actual relation to Alchemy at all.

 

 

 

The combination of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming produce the result of alchemy.

 

Empty words based on texts you do not understand. So what are the results of alchemy?

The final product of Neidan is to generate a better and healthier person.

 

Product? anyway.. no it is not the goals of Neidan, a 'better, healthier' person is known as general well-being, and are the goals of Qigong.

Neidan is much more then general well-being.

 

Hence, the person is really the dan(丹) that one wants to produce.

 

This actually does not have any sense?

Ming is the physical body of a person. Xing is the mind of a person which is also the spirit of the person.

If all the many hours of dedicating ones life to the practice of Neidan, reading texts and all that goes with Neidan are only giving the results of a 'better and healthier person' .... man its a lot of effort for such little fruit.

I mean.. you would be better to just live a normal life...go for a jog every few days, eat well, do a little Qigong (15 mins a day), and enjoy the benefits of being a 'better and healthier person'.

[ChiDragon]

Why do you practice Neidan, not for a better mental and physical health...???

Edited August 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[LaoZiDao]

Why do you practice Neidan, not for a better mental and physical health...???

 

To not go into detail on terminology and such, as I feel there is no point right now.

 

I will say, the effects on health and well being is a very low level achievement of Neidan.

 

I would also suggest you to re-read the OP by Opendao.

[ChiDragon]

Perhaps you might want to read this.
http://thetaobums.com/topic/32653-taoist-important-thoughts-and-canon/

[LaoZiDao]

Perhaps you might want to read this.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32653-taoist-important-thoughts-and-canon/

 

Thanks.

 

"the oil is Ming; and the light is Xing. If a lantern without oil, then, it cannot produce light. Hence, if a lantern cannot produce light, then the lantern cannot manifest its function of shedding lights. Cultivating the principles of Tao is analogous to accumulate and save oil to keep the lantern of being lit, then, life would have been full of brilliancy."

 

This is not too bad, have a read of this then.. as it explains the above and its relation to Alchemy.

 

Human life can be compared with a clay pot filled with oil, this oil by burning continuously which is always decreasing, jing, qi and shen.

 

Human bodies reduce jing qi shen in the same manner, when the oil in a pan over the fire is out and, Yuan Jing in the human body is over, and death will come.

 

Age sixteen for men, and age 14 for women, at this age they have highest development jing and qi in the body. Following the previous comparison, it looks like a pot filled with oil completely, then immediately comes the continuous leakage until death.

 

"Adding oil to fill the fate Ming" - is the use of special alchemy for progress in improving the return of already wasted mans Yuan jing and Yuan qi, and to bring the body back to the physiology and age of "filled pot" of oil again.

 

Filling bodys yuan jing is similar to that of filling pot with a new portion of oil, and only after the final refilling can the student begin to practice "remelting jing to qi.

 

"Adding oil to fill the fate Ming" - a method of improving, the reverse method of refilling yuanjing, so that it becomes possible to return human to youth, extend longevity and start the next practice of alchemy.

 

^ From http://thetaobums.com/topic/35872-neidan-refilling-yuanjingqi-building-the-foundation/

 

 

"What is Ming? It is the prenatal essence"

 

Yes, 元精 and it is closely tied to the kidneys.

[JinlianPai]

 

 

 

"The oil is Ming; and the light is Xing. If a lantern without oil, then, it cannot produce light. Hence, if a lantern cannot produce light, then the lantern cannot manifest its function of shedding lights. Cultivating the principles of Tao is analogous to accumulate and save oil to keep the lantern of being lit, then, life would have been full of brilliancy."

 

 

 

 

Yes this was my understanding as well

[Mo Tzu]

Neidan=Internal Exercises

Qi Gong=External Exercises

 

"When one does external exercises one MUST do internal exercises.

When one does internal exercises one may forget to do external exercises"

[ChiDragon]

Qi Gong is more internal breathing and slow external exercise. Internal breathing was done deep, slow and long.

[Yae]

can anyone list the aims/benefits of neidan, to the extent they can be listed and to the extent your experience allows you to list them?

 

opendao said somewhere that cultivating for the next life is unnecessary because you can attain everything in this life, as well as something about being able to affect everything about yourself or something, I took these things at the time to imply that the potential benefits of neidan are endless.

 

Also, Qigong Master Chunyi Lin trained with Yan Xin, Yuanming Zhang, Master Yau (Shaolin), Wang Liping and other Chinese masters he's not allowed to name, and is Chinese, but he teaches qigong. Do you really think he and all of his teachers missed something? Master Lin talks a lot about going into the Emptiness/Divine being the primary goal. That intuitively, idk about accurately, intuitively sounds like prenatal or preheaven? energy, where all of the earthly things come from. But maybe he approaches it from the wrong side, from the postnatal side, and so he'll never actually get there and even in his month long cave meditations he's only spiraled in nature's evolutionary spiral closer and closer to the truth but can never reach it that way?

 

Ugh I wish there were a Neidan school in MN. I'm going to have to ask Master Lin about Xing and Ming, whether his teachings build them. May have to fly in somewhere, but I don't think I've come in contact with enough material to be convinced to. Have like 25 tabs open about it though so may get there.

 

*Edit, actually I may or not have misread a post of Drew Hempel's. I don't know for sure if Chunyi Lin practiced under Wang Liping.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Bluemind

[dawei]

 

Thanks.

 

"the oil is Ming; and the light is Xing. If a lantern without oil, then, it cannot produce light. Hence, if a lantern cannot produce light, then the lantern cannot manifest its function of shedding lights. Cultivating the principles of Tao is analogous to accumulate and save oil to keep the lantern of being lit, then, life would have been full of brilliancy."

 

This is not too bad, have a read of this then.. as it explains the above and its relation to Alchemy.

 

Yes... even Laozi relates this relationship.

 

 

Neidan=Internal Exercises

Qi Gong=External Exercises

 

"When one does external exercises one MUST do internal exercises.

When one does internal exercises one may forget to do external exercises"

 

Worth repeating... but one should realize these are easy dead-end practices.

 

Qigong - do this if you want some good health benefits... but the gym may be the same result for many. Do what your lead to do... but don't let a sense of duty or practice be your master.

Neigong - don't do this unless this is your destiny... otherwise, you're wasting your time and maybe your body.

[Yae]

Thinking about what this mysterious in-person only Neidan teaching/method could be is like the best riddle ever.

[Daeluin]

Neigong - don't do this unless this is your destiny... otherwise, you're wasting your time and maybe your body.

[dawei]

Thinking about what this mysterious in-person only Neidan teaching/method could be is like the best riddle ever.

 

Close behind this is Tai Ji... either one will require a lifetime commitment... and along the way, you can only wonder... WTF am I doing after all these years...

 

The point of my comments is that the 'practice' is closer to a smoke screen... the Path is what matter. It is easy to see one stuck in the former as they always want to talk from it... when integrated into the latter... well, that is a different thing...

[opendao]

can anyone list the aims/benefits of neidan, to the extent they can be listed and to the extent your experience allows you to list them?

 

unconditional freedom. Freedom from yin-yang, freedom from death, freedom from evil, misfortune. Freedom to get a real wisdom, happiness and self-realization. Something like that. In books it's much easier: neidan is to be an immortal.

 

Also, Dao is about De, but it's hard to grasp from books, without personal encounter with realized masters.

 

Comparing to that, qigong of any kind cannot lead to such freedom and immortality. But traditional forms of qigong (baduanjing etc) have been created having neidan in mind, they can give a lot to prepare people to neidan practices. So their goals are not just about health, and they have their own place and role...

 

The only problem is to find traditional forms. It's hard but possible. Usually a lot of doubts, struggling, researches, money, time, travelling... a lot of riddles too... it all depends on a person's fate though.

[Ilkka]

Qigong - do this if you want some good health benefits... but the gym may be the same result for many. Do what your lead to do... but don't let a sense of duty or practice be your master.

Neigong - don't do this unless this is your destiny... otherwise, you're wasting your time and maybe your body.

I am fairly new to some of these terms. So I would like to know how Neidan is different from Nei Kung/Nei gong. I know this Chinese fellow told me that the way we pronounce the word "kung/gong" defines how we write it down.

 

From somewhere I read that "Dan" means "pot" and also energycenter/chakra etc. Does "Dan" have any other meanings like kung does when used in everyday speaking, like the chinese fellow told me that kung has multiple meanings, unlike in my language there are different meanings to different things like power, excersice etc.

[dawei]

I am fairly new to some of these terms. So I would like to know how Neidan is different from Nei Kung/Nei gong. I know this Chinese fellow told me that the way we pronounce the word "kung/gong" defines how we write it down.

 

From somewhere I read that "Dan" means "pot" and also energycenter/chakra etc. Does "Dan" have any other meanings like kung does when used in everyday speaking, like the chinese fellow told me that kung has multiple meanings, unlike in my language there are different meanings to different things like power, excersice etc.

 

You mean after reading 20 pages you need someone to clarify it all ? Or you skipped the 20 and want someone to clarity it all?

 

In either case, that may be good to do

 

Qigong is working with energy in general and will provide unity with the mind-heart-body in energy exchange with the universe. Anything energy related is Qigong on some level but it generally is health-benefit related. There are lots of practices and teachers and easily accessible in general. The breath, mind, intention, and energy are the core issues. If you are capable of interacting with all four, then you may be a candidate to try neigong but that is another leap all together.

 

Neigong is working with energy to provide unity with mind-heart-body-energy in spirit exchange with the universe. This is not easily accessible and should only be done under strict supervision of a teacher/master/lineage; all other methods are prone to misleading the mind-heart-body-energy unless a spiritual initiation of some sort is present.

 

Dan is a pot in similar terms; energy is heat. Energy implies an energy center and implies Qi. There are three centers in taoist thought (upper, mid, lower) where energy can be stored up, generated, or a conduit. This does relate to the chakras in correspondence of locations but there are more chakras. A good knowledge of both helps to understand energy and their unity within the body.

 

Dan as other meanings: The most common Dan is the Dan Tian of the lower belly area; often referred to as the Lower Dan Tian (LDT). THis is usually considered of first importance to fill with energy so that the body has a reservoir of Qi which will flow into the 'streams and lakes' (meridians and energy channels). This is a base understanding and there are exceptions but don't feel that Qigong is linear; you can exchange energy without this idea; you can sense it and read it too... but if it is not natural or does not come natural then linear practice helps. Probably the middle Dan Tian is the most important since that is really the end-game for the majority to develop... a few will develop the upper Dan tian and get outside the local body-mind.

 

As a higher level idea... Laozi mentions a red child. This is also an important aspect of the Central Scriptures of Laozi and the 'visualization of gods' practice of early alchemy/neigong. Thus, the Dan has a spiritual connotation which is lost on most.... but your inherently able to find it... should that be your destiny.

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/dantian.html

 

http://www.literati-tradition.com/meditative_practice.html

 

http://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/daoist-meditation-lesson-seven-theory-the-three-treasures-and-the-circulation-of-water-and-fire/

 

http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/3129933-the-original-stele-of-the-neijing-tu-a-taoist-chart-of-the-human-body