Ish Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) -ll. Edited April 4, 2018 by Ish Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted February 6, 2015 opendao, can I ask how advanced do Wu Liu Pai consider the attainment of the spirit crystallizing into a pearl of yang? "spirit crystallizing"? what do you mean? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) . Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted February 6, 2015 ch 1, par 8 "It is the true energy of the prenatal Taiyi." Well after your system, the light is then prenatal spirit-vitality, It says just energy-Qi. Nothing is said about spirit-shen or their mix in the human body. Just preheaven Qi of the initial unity. which is yuan jingshen, which would equate a mix of Xing and Ming (as I said in the first place), which would equate "yang shen". so this is not what I meant :-) And what about shi shen in Wu-Liu Pai? Is it ignored? It has to be transformed the way Golden Flower describes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) . Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ish Posted February 6, 2015 "spirit crystallizing"? what do you mean? From the secret of the golden flower .The light is easy to move, but difficult to fix. If it is made to circulate long enough, then it crystallizes itself; that is the Dharma body of the state of Self. This crystallized spirit is formed beyond the nine skies. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted February 6, 2015 opendao, can I ask how advanced do Wu Liu Pai consider the attainment of the spirit crystallizing into a pearl of yang? I wonder how long it would be expected to take for a student of your school to achieve this as well. The light is easy to move, but difficult to fix. If it is made to circulate long enough, then it crystallizes itself; that is the Dharma body of the state of Self. This crystallized spirit is formed beyond the nine skies. There are different stages of such congealing-"crystalization". But even the beginning is considered to be an advanced achievement. The entire process of transformation takes different time for different people, so it's hard to answer. Some stages can be very long. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) . Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted February 6, 2015 As I understand the text, yuan shen is already Qian and first swallows shi shen and then vitality-water. 1) yuan shen is not Qian 2) it doesn't need to swallow / merge with shi shen. Shishen just disappears because yuanshen gets yang from vitality-water. 3) yuan shen needs an energy for its spiritual activity, so it's impossible to avoid. That's why "vitality-water is a foundation" and it has to be "sufficient" first. About light. Both quotes (yours and mine) about light are correct. As well as, "light is Qian". After that, yuan shin, which is usually passive during life, becomes active, begins to move, To do that you need an energy. Yuanshen doesn't have it. If you merge yuanshen (preheaven) with shishen (postheaven), will you have any control on vitality-ming? I don't see how it can be possible even in theory. The Neidan traditional approach works with preheaven sanbao-treasures: Jing, Qi and Shen. We refine them, shishen is not in scope. Also, there is no point to "restore Ling": what was the point to reincarnate if we return to the same state again? Yuanshen needs a vitality for the transformation, that's why human beings have bodies of flesh. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) . Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted February 6, 2015 Yuan shen (original spirit) is Qian (Tao). Why do you think that Qian is Tao? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) . Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted February 6, 2015 What trigram would you associate Tao with? none Tao is tao, it is out of yinyang. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) . Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) . Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted February 6, 2015 Taiyi ("the creative") is associated with Qian ("pure yang"). where? Why do you translate Taiyi as "creative"? Qian is pure yang. But it can be a start of the process or it can be a finish of the way back. These states are very different. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) . Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) . Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) . Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted February 7, 2015 Guys, this is great stuff. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest munky Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) Lower self/yin energy /shi shen/ming/vitality water is transformed and refined to become More higher self/Yang energy/yuan shen/xing . The lower being the fuel to increase the higher. We have enough of it to use, without having to waste time cultivating more of ming unnecessarily. Achieve connection with the heavenly heart in the head and the lower energy still in its preheaven state automatically rises to it. The process is directly described in the golden flower. Must we complicate it so much by defining all the trivial differences in the terms used to describe the same thing? Edited February 7, 2015 by munky Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) Dear ZOOM. You jump from assumptions to conclusions and back so fast... Instead of trying to understand Ming, you're trying to prove that Ming is not needed at all :-\ Dear opendao, so the Wu-Liu Pai school claims that Yuan Shen (Xing) is yin and builds on this premise the whole alleged importance of Ming Gong and that yuan shen (Xing) has to be merged with Ming so it becomes yang so it is able to "rise up to the higher worlds"? well, it explains things this way, because it considers a different correlation between yin/yang and xing/ming. Golden Flower speaks about aspects of Shen, that's why hun is yang and po is yin in its system. Wu-Liu Pai speaks about Water and Fire, their middle parts. Both models are correct. The discriminating awareness (shi shen) is the function of the lower self (Po): ch 2, par 7 yes, function. But you equal them and get po=shishen. But the text doesn't equal them, it shows only some relations between them. You tried to do the same with light and yuanshen, but came to things that are not in the text (and not in Neidan): like Tao=Qian, or Taiyi="creative"=Qian. It's just a way to bigger mistakes. Ultimate conclusion: As Xing (yuan shen) is the "celestial self Hun", "YANG" and "identical in form with the primordial beginning", it can certainly rise up to every world it wants on its own and is not dependant on "Ming fuel" for being able to do that! Ultimate conclusion needs an ultimate proof :-) But do you understand that inside yin we can also find yang and yin, and in this context yin and yang are not the same as the initial yin? Or let's take a trigram for Water: it's yin in general, but it has yang inside... But all these "ultimatums" can be debunked even on a textual level: Turning the light around is not just turning around the essence (Jing-精)of one body, but turning around the very energy of creation (zhen qi - 真气) Ch. 3 Anything more you need to understand the importance of Ming? The transformation of Xing is the goal, and GF emphasizes that, but still it follows the traditional way and uses the "dual cultivation of Xing and Ming". Obviously because there is no any other "way to heavens". Edited February 7, 2015 by opendao 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
damdao Posted February 7, 2015 well, it explains things this way, because it considers a different correlation between yin/yang and xing/ming. Golden Flower speaks about aspects of Shen, that's why hun is yang and po is yin in its system. Wu-Liu Pai speaks about Water and Fire, their middle parts. Both models are correct. yes, function. But you equal them and get po=shishen. But the text doesn't equal them, it shows only some relations between them. Ultimate conclusion needs an ultimate proof :-) But do you understand that inside yin we can also find yang and yin, and in this context yin and yang are not the same as the initial yin? Or let's take a trigram for Water: it's yin in general, but it has yang inside... In my studies of neidan I have found that certain systematization is needed, and to put some concepts in the right (or near) place and to distinguish some ideas that seem mixed is compulsory. In this particular, I think that here Opendao has shown some of the principles needed to understand neidan in general and Daoism in particular. 1º: Plurality of models, in Daoism there are several models working in different texts and for different purposes. 2º: Distinction between function and form. We can find it in many texts. Even in SGF we have these two classical components plus the basis of foundation: 6. The highest secrets of the Tao of the Elixir of Life are three; vitality-water, spirit-fire, and attention-earth. What is vitality-water? It is the true, one prenatal energy. Spirit fire is the light. Attention-earth is the heavenly heart of the middle palace. The fire of spirit is the function, the attention-earth is the substance, the vitality-water is the foundation. 6.丹道，以精水、神火、意土三者，为无上之诀。精水云何？乃先天真一之气，神火即光也，意土即中宫天心也。以神火为用，意土为体，精水为基。 So, an understanding of form and function is fundamental in every daoist study, especially in neidan. For instance, in the Lung Hu jing -Dragon-Tiger Classic- and in the Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji - Dialogues between Zhong Li Quan and Lu Dong Pin- this distinction is used constantly. 3º Inside yang is yin, and their different phases (tai yang, tai yin...) etc. 4º Distinction between initial yang-yin and ulterior combinations. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) . Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) . Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
