Neidan vs Qigong

[JinlianPai]

If this practice is so important, then other traditions must have it.

 

When I heard of Max attaining the Golden Dragon body my first thought was the Gum Long meditations but later I learned he did something called kunlun but it wasnt the same.

 

But kunlun shan is very c lose to tibet and kunlun uses magnetic fields but its not the same as the Gum Long system.

 

I think that practice is some way related to it but its not it.

 

Every major sect has guardian practices or gate keeper practices.

 

Like for Wudang you can do wudang taichi but that is not the Zhenwu practices of the turtle snake.

 

Do I think Max has attained the Golden Dragon body? Yes but is it the same as the Gum Long practice no.

 

With taoist it cones down to the guardians your sect is connected to. An pulling out a taoist astrology chart to back it up.

 

So if you say your practice or sect is more powerful than mine then bust out a taoist astrology chart and show me why....

 

So this is one of the reasons orthodox sects are backed up or connected to one of the gate keepers of the tao.

Edited February 8, 2015 by JinlianPai

[JinlianPai]

I thought we were talking about Gold Dragon Body achievement

and not about some yellow dragon from chinese folklore...

 

Sorry man just side step my posts but ive been looking for the golden dragon system for a while.

 

Good luck to you and your search.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[JinlianPai]

I dont know golden dragon. wish i did.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[JinlianPai]

=> Red Phoenix Lv 1 - 3

 

Well if his golden dragon practices are called red phoenix then I dont consider them the practices of the golden dragon but the red phoenix of the south.

 

Edited February 8, 2015 by JinlianPai

[JinlianPai]

My suggestion is that you read

 

 

[Yae]

In regard to offshoot qigong and new agers in general (from Cultivating Perfection: Mysticism and Self-Transformation in early Quan Zhen (pp80-1)):

 

...The first and probably most influential approach to mysticism is referred to as Contextualism. As the name implies, Contextualism emphasizes the importance of context for understanding any mystic or mystical system. In its nascent form, a Contextualist approach to mysticism was advocated by Gershom Scholem in his Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism (1995 [1941]):

The point I should like to make is this—that there is no such thing as mysticism in the abstract, that is to say, a phenomenon or experience which has no particular relation to other religious phenomena. There is no mysticism as such, there is only the mysticism of a particular religious system, Christian, Islamic, Jewish mysticism and so on. . . . History rather shows that the great mystics were faithful adherents of the great religions. (5–6; see also Scholem 1965; 1967)

Experiences and phenomena defined as “mystical” do not occur and cannot be understood outside of a given religious tradition.34

 

34 This perspective, of course, contradicts claims by members of New Age discourse communities, who believe that they have access to some trans-historical, perennial, and “ultimately real” reality. However, there are equally complex cultural and sociological factors at work in this type of account as well. For one relevant study on the historical and intellectual background of New Age movements see Hanegraaff 1996.

 

Definition of mysticism from same book:

 

As herein employed, mysticism involves an “experience” of, “encounter” with, or “consciousness” of that which a given individual or religious community identifies as “sacred”28 or “ultimate.”29 In short, mysticism involves experience of a trans-human reality, an interaction between an individual and/or communal subject and a sacred dimension. Mysticism centers on sacrality and ultimacy. Such a “definition” suggests a beginning point (an anxiety-causing and intellectually-intimidating condition for many) that cannot be denied: There is no mysticism without the possibility of some “thing” more significant than human beings.30 Mysticism is meaningless without the presupposition of, belief in, or transformation through a “reality” or “dimension” that is more meaningful or enduring than ordinary human existence.31 A larger consequence of this suggestion is that the study of mysticism cannot be reduced to “states of mind” or “problems of knowing.”

 

Sounds very preheaven.*

 

Interestingly, a channeled teaching called the Michael Teachings lists Jesus, Laozi, Buddha, Ra, Krishna, Lilith (Hebrew), and 7 others as those who for a part of their lives were bodily hosts of the Infinite Soul, which is considered an incarnation of the Tao.

 

 

Anyway. Qigong does not interact with the mystical. True Neidan from the original teachings of Laozi does.

 

I'm thinking that maybe the only true approaches to this "trans-human reality" (preheaven) have to have come from these incarnations of Tao, and that others would have no way to access them. Not that the all the other incarnations must have passed on teachings of immortality, I can't speculate much there. Though Buddha is apparently another.

 

*Regarding my use of "preheaven", I hope I'm not bastardizing the term. If I used it in an overly misleading way let me know and I'll edit the entry.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Bluemind

[dawei]

Two premises I take in regards to this stuff:

1. It's all spirit... whatever we make of any part in the manifest, it originated in spirit

2. The physical/manifest world of forms requires Yin and Yang. There is neither pure Yin nor pure Yang; that does not materially exist in a form.

 

Tell that to opendao who claims that yuanshen is yin and in need of vitality to be able to "raise to the higher worlds"!

 

I personally don't like to think of any pre-heaven stuff (Shen, Qi, Jing) as broken down to Yin vs Yang; This only ocurs in Post-Heaven manifestations or rooting. JMO.

 

I do see Yuan Shen as transforming to Yuan Qi and that in turn to Yuan Jing... all three get rooted in the fetus.

 

How can these exist in the body?

 

They exist in Yin/Yang form and their energies are split in various ways to balance with everything else.

 

In restoring Yuan Shen, we are letting that which is deeply rooted in us to connect backwards to the primordial origin... this manifests (this communication appears) as light to us but it cannot contain the full power of the primordial as the body is not equipped to handle beyond its duality limits and what Jing as 'form' is about; if Pure Yin or Pure Yang are approached too much, the body dies.

 

Do you think that Hun is not yuan shen

and Po is not shi shen?

 

Do you have evidence for that opinion?

 

I would certainly agree with the position that yuan shen is "beyond such distinction" basically.

 

There are a lot of views on Hun and Po and the numbering of spirits to assign.

 

Above I mentioned the progression from spirit to form as: Yuan Shen > Yuan Qi > Yuan Jing.

 

So Jing is the most base, most yin and together with Qi creates our being. Spirit is rooted too...

 

Spirit of the Body:

Hun><Qi><Yang><Shen><Returns to spirit of heaven

Po><Jing><Yin><Ling><Returns to spirit of earth

 

 

opendao said this:

Xing + Ming = Dao, what can be more profound?

Yuanshen + Yuanqi = Dao, what can be more precise?

"Only Qi and Shen, that's it": Teachers of the past wrote about it a lot.

 

Even the Yi Jing said: "What is Dao? One Yin and One Yang"... but this leads to lots of duality concepts, but Dao is the process of what arises, and the manifest world requires Yin and Yang.

 

RE: Only Qi and Shen: I would only loosely agree in that Jing is the most base, most earthly and lowest of the formless and yet the truest form of Qi and Shen... so our bodies are naturally and constantly using and transforming Jing. One cannot work with Qi without the foundation of Jing inherently there.

 

If one thinks of their own respiratory and muscular systems... as you exercise, your [Jing] muscles support you frame and work hard... and your stamina increases dramatically and your exchange of air/energy (Qi) reaches higher and higher levels.

[JinlianPai]

Two premises I take in regards to this stuff:

1. It's all spirit... whatever we make of any part in the manifest, it originated in spirit

2. The physical/manifest world of forms requires Yin and Yang. There is neither pure Yin nor pure Yang; that does not materially exist in a form.

 

 

I personally don't like to think of any pre-heaven stuff (Shen, Qi, Jing) as broken down to Yin vs Yang; This only ocurs in Post-Heaven manifestations or rooting. JMO.

 

I do see Yuan Shen as transforming to Yuan Qi and that in turn to Yuan Jing... all three get rooted in the fetus.

 

How can these exist in the body?

 

They exist in Yin/Yang form and their energies are split in various ways to balance with everything else.

 

In restoring Yuan Shen, we are letting that which is deeply rooted in us to connect backwards to the primordial origin... this manifests (this communication appears) as light to us but it cannot contain the full power of the primordial as the body is not equipped to handle beyond its duality limits and what Jing as 'form' is about; if Pure Yin or Pure Yang are approached too much, the body dies.

 

 

There are a lot of views on Hun and Po and the numbering of spirits to assign.

 

Above I mentioned the progression from spirit to form as: Yuan Shen > Yuan Qi > Yuan Jing.

 

So Jing is the most base, most yin and together with Qi creates our being. Spirit is rooted too...

 

Spirit of the Body:

Hun><Qi><Yang><Shen><Returns to spirit of heaven

Po><Jing><Yin><Ling><Returns to spirit of earth

 

 

 

Even the Yi Jing said: "What is Dao? One Yin and One Yang"... but this leads to lots of duality concepts, but Dao is the process of what arises, and the manifest world requires Yin and Yang.

 

RE: Only Qi and Shen: I would only loosely agree in that Jing is the most base, most earthly and lowest of the formless and yet the truest form of Qi and Shen... so our bodies are naturally and constantly using and transforming Jing. One cannot work with Qi without the foundation of Jing inherently there.

 

If one thinks of their own respiratory and muscular systems... as you exercise, your [Jing] muscles support you frame and work hard... and your stamina increases dramatically and your exchange of air/energy (Qi) reaches higher and higher levels.

 

Well I agree its a matter of spirit so I have to know that my search for the body of light is right according to the heavens aka taoist astrology.

 

Zoom and Opendao were discussing ming and xing and my whole point is that according to legend and taoist astrology the attainment of golden dragon has a very deep earth chi meaning tht you can have your ming xing and attainment too.

 

i have followed this thread with great interest.

 

I think Zoom and Opendao bring up some good points.

[Aetherous]

Well if his golden dragon practices are called red phoenix then I dont consider them the practices of the golden dragon but the red phoenix of the south.

 

It's said that red phoenix + kunlun method = gold dragon body. There is generally more said than that of course, but these two methods are the core of the Kunlun school that Max formed, whose primary purpose is GDB.

[opendao]

Well I agree its a matter of spirit so I have to know that my search for the body of light is right according to the heavens aka taoist astrology.

 

Zoom and Opendao were discussing ming and xing and my whole point is that according to legend and taoist astrology the attainment of golden dragon has a very deep earth chi meaning tht you can have your ming xing and attainment too.

 

yellow and "earth" have special meaning in Neidan, related to Ming gong.

[JinlianPai]

Well the legend is that all 5 guardians are immortal anyways and eternal.

 

But they all get their power from the golden dragon infact they all share a small peice of his power each guardian only has a small part of the spectrum while the yellow dragon has it all.

[JinlianPai]

yellow and "earth" have special meaning in Neidan, related to Ming gong.

 

Well im searching and researching this id love any insights that you could give.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[ralis]

Well the legend is that all 5 guardians are immortal anyways and eternal.

 

But they all get their power from the golden dragon infact they all share a small peice of his power each guardian only has a small part of the spectrum while the yellow dragon has it all.

 

Why not go beyond these mythological beings to whatever the main energy source is, possibly the Quantum level.

[opendao]

Two premises I take in regards to this stuff:

1. It's all spirit... whatever we make of any part in the manifest, it originated in spirit

2. The physical/manifest world of forms requires Yin and Yang. There is neither pure Yin nor pure Yang; that does not materially exist in a form.

 

I personally don't like to think of any pre-heaven stuff (Shen, Qi, Jing) as broken down to Yin vs Yang; This only ocurs in Post-Heaven manifestations or rooting. JMO.

 

such opinion cannot be supported nor by Yijing, nor by Neidan classics. "Preheaven" is not just a word, it's also (or firstly) an order of trigrams, and trigrams are yin or yang... It looks like you mix wuji, where there is no differentiation, and xiantian.

 

Same about True Ying and True Yang. These are names in Neidan for very exact things. They are not the same as yin and yang in TCM.

Edited February 8, 2015 by opendao

[JinlianPai]

Well opendao my understand is thus

 

that the taoist temples sects are deeply connected to the taoist astrology.

 

like these guys who claim to have the azure dragon neikung practices http://www.seahorsebooks.co.uk/cart/chee-soo-feng-shou-p-12.php

 

So my question to you is what does the golden dragon mean to your sect and have you heard anything else about the golden dragon outside of feng shui legend and max?

[ralis]

Well opendao my understand is thus

 

that the taoist temples sects are deeply connected to the taoist astrology.

 

like these guys who claim to have the azure dragon neikung practices http://www.seahorsebooks.co.uk/cart/chee-soo-feng-shou-p-12.php

 

So my question to you is what does the golden dragon mean to your sect and have you heard anything else about the golden dragon outside of feng shui legend and max?

 

This is clearly OT and diverting the thread to your own issues. Start your own thread on this subject.

[JinlianPai]

This is clearly OT and diverting the thread to your own issues. Start your own thread on this subject.

 

Sorry man just side step my posts

[dawei]

such opinion cannot be supported nor by Yijing, nor by Neidan classics. "Preheaven" is not just a word, it's also (or firstly) an order of trigrams, and trigrams are yin or yang... It looks like you mix wuji, where there is no differentiation, and xiantian.

 

Same about True Ying and True Yang. These are names in Neidan for very exact things. They are not the same as yin and yang in TCM.

 

I use "YUAN" are pre-heaven... Original, before heaven/earth formed; before forms.

 

I use True Ying and True Yang as simply ONLY YIN and ONLY YANG.

 

Forget, Yi Jing; forget, neidan; forget TCM... this is my usage

[ralis]

Sorry man just side step my posts

 

Your posts belong in another thread.

[JinlianPai]

Man I just think that the secret of the golden flower is really the golden lotus of buddhist of lore.....

 

the only golden flower that I know of is the golden lotus.

 

This is a quote from a shaolin site...http://www.shaolin.org.cn/templates/EN_T_newS_list/index.aspx?nodeid=297&page=ContentPage&contentid=10479

 

 

The golden lotus that is mentioned in Buddhist sutras has two meanings; one is the symbol for the achievement of enlightenment and the other points towards a real flower which is beyond our normal perception. It is also symbolizes the complete purification of the defilements of the body, speech and mind, and the full blossoming of wholesome deeds in blissful liberation.

 

 

[dawei]

It looks like you mix wuji, where there is no differentiation, and xiantian.

 

That may be... and why I don't like to pander to neidan terminology.

 

My usage background is in Medical Qigong... and transmission/reception of divine light energy.

 

I gave my usage and experience and did a bad job of trying to tie it to neidan seeking results.

[dawei]

Man I just think that the secret of the golden flower is really the golden lotus of buddhist of lore...

 

The Chinese characters for Golden Flower (Jinhua 金华) hide the word light (光) in it. The lower part of the character for Gold (金) and the upper part for the character Flower (华) make up the character for Light (光)

 

 

Link: http://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/hide.html