Neidan vs Qigong

[ralis]

What opendao does not realize is, that I know more about Wu-Liu Pai than he thinks I do.

For example, I know for sure that the russian teacher has no chi powers like John Chang.

This disproves any "shotgun to a child" argument, which would be true in Mo Pai but not in Wu-Liu Pai.

I also know for sure that they set a high value an genealogy. I don't remember why, but I bet that the reason is that Ming is inherited from your ancestors.

 

As JinlianPai brought up chinese astrology in this thread, I am thinking about the possibility if the stars (as they are "in heaven") determine your Xing then...

 

Excellent point regarding genealogy. Then it is not much different than the ancient European ideology of the 'divine right of kings'. Same way with the Tibetan dharma kings.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ralis

[ralis]

10 points to Gryffindor for assuming something is wrong because you don't understand it.

 

Deferring to a character in a 'Harry Potter' movie as a way to criticize me, has no standing whatsoever.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ralis

[Daeluin]

As JinlianPai brought up chinese astrology in this thread, I am thinking about the possibility if the stars (as they are "in heaven") determine your Xing then...

 

Liu Yiming says the post-celestial Ming is the destiny/fate granted by heaven.

 

Based on my own humble understanding, if one only cultivates Xing, one's Yin Ling is unable to ascend. I've also read accounts of the hun and po separating at death, and the po remaining earthbound. Sorry, I can't recall the source of that, and I too would like further clarification.

 

Again, from my own (and clearly questionable) understanding, one needs to cultivate and refine one's Ming into the pre-celestial state, to a point of full body embryo/pore breathing, at which point one has restored and refined the three dan tiens and is able to utilize this fullness by opening the lesser and/or greater celestial circuit, at which point further refinement is done, and so on.

 

The point of this Ming work seems, in my opinion, to be necessary for containing the Xing and nurturing the embryo. As I understand it, one's body cannot fully contain one's Xing, which is as available to you as you are prepared to receive it.

 

Naturally this type of highly detailed understanding is going to feel wrong for many people. Great! That means they should find the understanding that works for them. I am quite happy for others to think my understanding is mistaken.

[Daeluin]

"Clean heart"? You have got to be joking! By positing a universal moral code on the universe is a mistaken view. This is just more authoritarianism stemming from dark age beliefs. If you need another parent then go right ahead, but don't foist that ideology on others.

 

Something I remembered from the longmenpai blog:

 

Once I put Channel SHO into the context of Zhong and Lu Dandao in order to understand it and with my own recovery of strength and energy, opening up Channel SHO has become straightforward. Since I was only concentrated on the technical aspects of opening up the Channel SHO and ignored the important of the students' personalities and De (virtues), it had brought me a lot of trouble, it was a hard lesson taht I would not forget.

 

When one gets to higher level in one's cultivation, one can get a deeper appreciation of the importance of De (virtues) in cultivation. Cultivation doesn't just mean doing the practice, it also includes the cultivation of one's De. The two aspects complement each other and both must be worked on simultaneously. For examples:

 

During the Yin Xian Fa stage, one needs the "De of gong" i.e. confidence, perseverance, honesty and empty heart etc.

 

During Human Immortal Method stage, one needs the "De of Man" i.e. respect for teachers and parents, manner, knowledge and clear thinking.

 

During the Terrestrial Immortal Method stage, one needs the "De of Earth", i.e. kindness, softness, endurance, modesty and willingness to give.

 

During the Celestial Immortal Method stage, one needs the "De of Heaven", i.e. big hearted, depth, no desire and magnanimous.

 

If any aspect of the De cultivation has been deficient, it will be reflected in one's practice. The higher the gongfu also means the higher level requirement of De, the imbalance between the two can hinder the progress of one's cultivation. I have seen too many examples in my own teaching and these have happened in the students who had their SHO opened. This is all very real.

 

I imagine it is possible for one to ignore virtue and just cultivate Xing... but my suspicion is that as one begins circulating it in various places within the body, so as to dissolve the body, the more balanced one will need to be emotionally. In my opinion, the higher one gets, the more one has dissolved one's body. I'm pretty sure it is possible to just leave the body behind once Xing has been cultivated to a certain point, and enjoy where-ever that takes one in the heavenly realms. But to fully transcend heaven and earth, I get the idea one isn't able to leave anything behind. So in my opinion, it is just a matter of where one is trying to go.

 

But on that point... I think the more one is able to listen to one's heart and intuition, the clearer idea one will have of where they will get the most benefit from going. We all have different paths - in my opinion.

 

Again, just my opinions. They're all probably wrong, so no need to cut away at them. Yes indeed, it was probably pointless to even post them to begin with. Please accept my apologies.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Daeluin]

If you'd like to read more, here's some of what Liu Yiming wrote about pre-celestial and post-celestial Xing and Ming.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Daeluin]

I see neither "celestial" nor "pre-celestial" in this, but rather "earthly", "genetic" and "inherited".

 

It is there.

[dawei]

Ling / Xing is yang (celestial),

Ming is yin (earthly).

 

I don't think that is the correct associations... you put Ling with Xing, but what spirit component do you put with Ming?

 

Here is what I see:

 

Ling><Po><Yin

Shen><Hun><Yang

 

I don't apply them to Xing / Ming because they are not spirits... Hun and Po are spirits so we can associate Ling and Shen.

 

I would accept this:

 

Xing><Shen><Yin

Ming><Jing and Qi><Yang

 

 

 

 

And:

The Primordial Unity Taiyi, that has to be restored, is the one of yuan shen and shi shen as Ling,

as Ming was never part of the celestial soul Ling in the first place!

 

Ming is not spirit per se, so I would not personally attempt to fit it with Ling.

[dawei]

But the Hun is not earthbound as it is the "celestial yang higher self".

What happens, if the Po (yin, earthly) is dissolved in the Hun (yang, celestial)?

The result is, that the Po, dissolved into the Hun, can rise up to wherever it wants, obviously.

 

An earthly energy as Ming won't help to get higher up.

 

Hun and Po are a interdependent split Spirit. One Yang and One Yin. They do not dissolve into each other. Upon death, Hun arises and Po descends. They will merge with another life.

 

 

Perhaps into its pre-natal state.

As Ming is obviously inherited, there is no "celestial" or even "pre-celestial" version of Ming!

 

From Daeliun's link:

 

[Post-natal:]

The [ming] that is the destiny given by Heaven can last a short or a long time, and can meet exhaustion or can flow without hindrances. Wealth and honor, hardship or prosperity differ in range and are dissimilar.

 

[Pre-Natal:]

The [ming] that is the Breath of the Tao is firm and strong, pure and flawless; it takes life and death as equal, and grows and preserves itself for numberless kalpas. Heaven and Earth do not go against it. and Yin and Yang do not adhere to it.

[Songtsan]

Fascinating thread! So what I am taking from it is that if you want to study Neidan, a teacher with a verifiable lineage is required. As in, there are no texts translated into English that one can trust?

 

Checking out Wu liu pai...anyone have any strong criticisms?

Edited February 8, 2015 by Songtsan

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Taoist Texts]

And what makes you think you can disprove the teachings of an ancient lineage that is willing to show you immortals in the flesh if you're willing to trust them enough to go see them?

 

Bluemind

 

so have you signed up and gone to see them ?

[Daeluin]

I think people get easily confused when trying to place neidan components into yin or yang boxes. In my opinion, it changes a lot depending on how you look at it.

 

In terms of the golden elixir, which is something of the utmost yang, the yuan jing/qi/shen are all yin. Liu Yiming refers to the one that becomes three, and emphasizes how these three are one, not giving more weight to any of the three.

 

If we are clinging to which is which, I think it prevents us from working towards their unification, which requires surrendering the thinking mind to some extent anyway.

 

Point in case, all this thinking I'm doing here is just taking me away from unity, and thus is likely to do the same for anyone reading, alas...

[dawei]

First of all: Thanks!

 

So, we have:

1) Xing (Shen)

2) Ming (Qi, Jing)

 

 

IYO:

Shen is yin,

Jing and Qi are yang?

 

Let's make it more obvious by reducing it to:

 

Shen = Yin

Jing = Yang

 

Still sure of the correctness of your equation...?

 

(Lol, I'd like to hear Taomeow's opinion concerning that equation... )

 

I was representing the split of Shen from Jing/Qi.

 

And my association is in relation Ming and Xing:

 

Ming><Doing><Yang><Form=Jing, Qi

Xing><Non-Doing><Yin><No Form=Shen

 

If the association is to Hun and Po:

 

Hun><Qi><Yang

Po><Jing><Yin

 

I've got no problem with being wrong... and TM would be good to hear from

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[dawei]

Hun = yuan shen : stillness, passive, percepting -> ?

Po = shi shen: passion, active, doing -> ?

 

line of evidence that Hun = yuan shen , Po = shi shen:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/37473-thesecretofthegoldenflowercom-in-depth-analysis-discussion/?p=606628

 

As above, so below...

 

I'm not saying I am preaching the gospel here but this is how I tend to fit the parts together

 

GRAND PRIOR UNITY: HENGXIAN, TAIYI: SHEN: Pre- (immaterial unity before even Dao)

POST UNITY: ONE as in Laozi: QI: Post- (material unity; Dao is the process of this unfolding)

TEN THOUSAND: JING: Manifest world (space, time, consciousness exists)

 

There are too many splits that occur in each stage above and equating all these levels back and forth is messy, as you say

 

When the spirit was dividing down further and further, in order for creation to occur, there is a level at which SHEN and LING divide... Higher and Lower. Ling keeps going lower to Hun and Po...

 

Hun and Po are the spirit guardians to stage 2-3... Hun retains the rights to ascend; Po keeps going lower to descend...

 

 

 

I don't think I am answering any questions and probably not furthering the thread... but sharing my point of view.

[JinlianPai]

http://lostsecretofimmortality.tumblr.com/

In China the secret of enlightenment was called “the secret of immortality.” There are actually five different types of immortals – ghost immortals, human immortals, earthly immortals, celestial immortals and golden immortals, which represent different levels of self-cultivation. The golden immortals would be similar to Buddhas. What meditation practitioners were seeking was inner illumination. When Taoists speak of immortals they are not actually describing someone who lives in a physical body forever. An achieved one may be able to keep their body for 100 or even 200 years but the most important point is that they have achieved true inner illumination through the inner alchemical firing process

 

 

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2006/09/secret_of_the_g.html

The golden flower symbolizes the quintessence of the paths of Buddhism and Taoism. Gold stands for light, the light of the mind itself; the flower represents the blossoming, or opening up, of the light of the mind.

Edited February 8, 2015 by JinlianPai

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[LaoZiDao]

Your statement at the bottom of the page sums your position; "avoid false Neidan schools with no lineage and without complete methods of Xing and Ming."

 

Why its important to avoid schools with no linage and why you need a teacher. From ZOOMs favourite link: http://www.thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/summary.html

 

 

The firing process spoken of in the alchemical classics and writings of the masters is a metaphor for the order of practical spiritual work.

-- Liu Yiming

 

 

The firing process is not openly described in the Secret of the Golden Flower, because according to Liu Yiming, one needs to be guided by an enlightened teacher.

 

 

The moon waxing to fullness is a secret passed on by word of mouth. The medicinal substances are hard to know, and the firing process is not easy to understand. Students should hasten to find a genuine teacher. -- Liu Yiming (commentary on Understanding Reality)

[Aetherous]

.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Aetherous

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[LaoZiDao]

 

Well, even Liu Yiming can be wrong, obviously!

 

His comment on The Secret Of The Golden Flower has nothing to do with the book per se,

which was written as a practice manual for lay people to achieve Immortality without master and without school,

as Thomas Cleary explicitly states in his translation.

 

As it was written for laypeople, there certainly nothing missing at all.

 

The "alchemical firing process" is more than clearly described.

 

You should do your research instead of blindly and mindlessly believing into authority figures.

 

In case you are unable to think for yourself, let me do it for you:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/37552-the-superiority-of-the-secret-of-the-golden-flower-method/?p=607519

Why such aggressive tone? Can't we just discuss in a calm manner.

 

"as Thomas Cleary explicitly states in his translation."

 

Luiyiming is an achieved immortal..

 

What weight does Clearly hold on this matter? Even clearly can be wrong

 

Clearly's statement is not correct. There is no such thing as methods described in books..you can find several writings mentioning this. But you can insist on this of you like.

 

You don't respect the Daoist tradition, or have any relation to it.

 

Are you practicing a method from GF?

 

Can you help us laypersons to understand the steps, how to do it, when to do it, deviations etc. Its all in that book, then I'm interested to see what you can tell me about the method.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM