Neidan vs Qigong

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Daeluin]

Speaking of human projections.... I was taught that it is pretty common for humans to project their beliefs all over the place, and that things like our planets are full of loaded human projections. Certainly their gravities have a pull on us that is very specific, but our in-depth reading into this can be a major participant. For instance, since Pluto's discovery there have other Kuiper belt dwarf planets of a similar size discovered, and yet Pluto holds a very dominant role in western astrological interpretation while these others do not. How much of this role is our deliberate willing of patterns onto this planet versus its energetic tug on us? Hard to say.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Daeluin

[ralis]

Speaking of human projections.... I was taught that it is pretty common for humans to project their beliefs all over the place, and that things like our planets are full of loaded human projections. Certainly their gravities have a pull on us that is very specific, but our in-depth reading into this can be a major participant. For instance, since Pluto's discovery there have other Kuiper belt dwarf planets of a similar size discovered, and yet Pluto holds a very dominant role in western astrological interpretation while these others do not. How much of this role is our deliberate willing of patterns onto this planet versus its energetic tug on us? Hard to say.

 

Regarding projections is the reason I posted the Andromeda video which quickly puts things in perspective.

[LaoZiDao]

 

In the next days, I will extract all text passages concerning practical instruction

from The Secret Of The Golden Flower (the translation on http://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/ )

and consolidate them into a new thread in my PPD forum.

Then everybody can study the included practical instructions from the source text in an easy accessible form.

Include Chinese references as well. And none of your own ideas or conclusions.

 

All from the text plain and simple.

[Taoist Texts]

It's been said they are not secret, just you need to get off your lazy ass and see for yourself - you can get proof yourself.

 

I find it remarkable that this dynamic duo has been working this forum for quite some time already, without producing a single customer for themselves. My esteem for human intelligence went up another notch.

[ralis]

I find it remarkable that this dynamic duo has been working this forum for quite some time already, without producing a single customer for themselves. My esteem for human intelligence went up another notch.

 

What persons are you referring to regarding the dynamic duo?

Edited February 9, 2015 by ralis

[opendao]

Include Chinese references as well. And none of your own ideas or conclusions.

 

All from the text plain and simple.

 

haha, and all versions, all other texts from xubian, associated with this school. Plus all Buddhist sutras mentioned in GF. Plus all comments... Well, this can be called a Research then.

[ralis]

haha, and all versions, all other texts from xubian, associated with this school. Plus all Buddhist sutras mentioned in GF. Plus all comments... Well, this can be called a Research then.

 

It is most unfortunate that you have chosen to ignore serious questions addressed to you by several here, but have formed a little exclusive clique. Not opendao, but closed off.

Edited February 9, 2015 by ralis

[Taoist Texts]

What persons are you referring to regarding the dynamic duo?

the neidan sales dept.

[ralis]

the neidan sales dept.

 

Sales of ultra secret teachings for sure.

[Taoist Texts]

Sales of ultra secret teachings for sure.

STOP THE PRESSES! CORRECTION! Apparently they got one customer who wishes not to be identified.

 

[LaoZiDao]

Do you offer any value, or just troll?

[Chang]

Moderation Mesage

Please keep to the topic in question without falling out over differing views.

[Cheshire Cat]

There is more things to it than just an exercise. Timing, consistency, repeatability, etc etc.. there is many requirements.

 

This is true also for Qigong practices: timing, consistency an repeatability aren't exclusive of your practices.

 

 

I know what you mean, but even the same exercise looking the same from outside with maybe some minor differences can make a huge difference to the results. Same in Qigong, someone doing pole standing may get result of X, someone else doing another way of pole standing which looks the same, but has some additional things added (visualisations for example) may get results Y.

 

This is true, we're talking about exercises that are mostly internal and for this very reason any additional things could potentially change the outcome.

But how could you say that Qigong practitioners cannot understand and reach the same goals of your school?

Everyone can easily adjust his practice to stimulate a certain channel for example, or produce a certain healing.

 

...and this adjustment may remain hidden since from the outside, the practice never changed.

 

 

About the method I know and practice, I have learned that there are several exercises from other teachers / temples around China which look very similar to it, but is not real Neidan at all. Small differences and important details making a huge difference to the result.

 

Can you elaborate on the differences of results?

 

 

 

You can find it out easy though, just takes some effort on your part to meet a teacher and see what its all about

 

A lot of effort indeed and since I have no idea of what I could get from this mysterious practices, I think that I will investigate more before looking for a teacher of your lineage.

[Yae]

STOP THE PRESSES! CORRECTION! Apparently they got one customer who wishes not to be identified.

 

*sigh* I'm happy to be identified. I didn't want to spam this thread.

[damdao]

I was looking for a post of Zoom, but it seems that it was erased, so my reply has to be more general and perhaps it is not addressing one of the points under discussion.

The point I wanted to remark is that in Daoism yin-yang are not static things, and most of time we have to bear in mind what yang and what yin is, in which phase or moment of its development is, how is the relation inside-outside, function-form, etc. Daoism is not binary mode of thinking, I presume.

So, Lu Dong Ping (the very same author of the SGF) ask to his master:

 

 

"The way of ch'ien is manifested in heaven and it follows the function of yang. Since yang governs ascent, how can it sink and interact with earth? The way of k'un is manifested in earth and it follows the function of yin. Since yin governs descent, how can it rise and interact with heaven?..."

The Tao of Health, Longevity..., translated by Eva Wong, p. 38

So, although heaven and earth seem to be yin or yang, in its interactions for the purpose of alchemy they have to follow certain movements that perhaps are not the obvious ones.

[soaring crane]

 

So, although heaven and earth seem to be yin or yang, in its interactions for the purpose of alchemy they have to follow certain movements that perhaps are not the obvious ones.

 

This is nice, thank you :-)

 

When standing upright, if we let first the ankles give way, then the knees, then the pelvis, then the vertebrae one after another, then the skull, we can experience and incorporate exactly that. The sinking rises. And when sinking, we can start at the top and allow the rising to sink. It gets quite profound, standing on this planet of ours.

[damdao]

Well, even Liu Yiming can be wrong, obviously!

 

His comment on The Secret Of The Golden Flower has nothing to do with the book per se,

which was written as a practice manual for lay people to achieve Immortality without master and without school,

as Thomas Cleary explicitly states in his translation.

I think that Cleary's translations are far of being objective.

So, even his version is far better than Wilhem's, still it is made from a psychological point of view, intending to demonstrate some kind of world view with Zen Buddhism and Sufism mixed.

In fact, his translation of SGF is filtered by his readings of Idries Shah's version of Sufism (the same goes for his translation of Wang's Liping story).

Speaking of the Devil (Shah), he had a very interesting trick:

 

 

2. Since ancient times, those who realized spiritual immortality have passed on the Tao by word of mouth, from one to another.

(...)

5. The degeneration of the teaching has reached an extreme. Extremes give rise to reversions. Therefore there was a certain master Xu who bestowed his kindness to liberate people, especially setting up the teaching of a special transmission outside of doctrine, for those who had the highest capability to understand. For everybody who heard, it was a rare opportunity.

 

http://www.thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/ch1.html

 

The italics are mine.

[damdao]

This is nice, thank you :-)

 

When standing upright, if we let first the ankles give way, then the knees, then the pelvis, then the vertebrae one after another, then the skull, we can experience and incorporate exactly that. The sinking rises. And when sinking, we can start at the top and allow the rising to sink. It gets quite profound, standing on this planet of ours.

Now that you mention that, I remember Tom Bisio's explanation of Neigong exercises, and goes similar to what you said.

And I think that this turns the practice a deeper, either static postures or movements.

[Songtsan]

 

 

Where I wrote "human" and "beings," please replace with: "all formed and formless permutations of universal energies."

Its interesting to look at herd/flock/pack/etc. animals vs. solitary animals and see the differences. Read a good book on Evolutionary Psychology and you will see some fascinating discussions on the topics of morality in various species...including topics of rape, fratricide, infanticide, stealing, cheating, and so on.

[Aetherous]

*sigh* I'm happy to be identified. I didn't want to spam this thread.

 

Yeah there is absolutely nothing at all wrong with wanting to learn from these schools.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Aetherous]

TCM view on ming

 

Just found ming used a lot in the Shang Han Lun (the classical herbal text) with the meaning being, one's life. Cool to see the actual character being used there.

[Yae]

ZOOM, I would argue that your interpretation of the linked comment is very selective reading. For one thing:

 

Think a bit, the answer is very simple, what "ming raises" really means and why Neidan goes in an opposite direction.

 

"Opposite direction" is not downplaying the statement, it's directly contradicting it.

 

Hm, I'm not sure what "ming raises" really means but I think it doesn't mean replenishing. What do you think it means?

[thelerner]

There's are practices that cause the body to shake up and down quickly. That's what several spontaneous qigongs, especially Kunlun and Sifu's Jenny's practice are all about. It takes a few hours to get it, but its an interesting phenomena. People bounce and sometimes the chair flexes up with them.

 

I wasn't there.. Its a good sign but it may not be a 'powerful psychokinetic experience'. Rather the result of the body expressing energy.