Neidan vs Qigong

[JinlianPai]

Sorry forgot to post sources so ill post this

 

this is for the lotus sutras http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Sutra

 

Which mostly correlates to the Mahayana Tradition

 

Edited February 11, 2015 by JinlianPai

[JinlianPai]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Sutra

Shakyamuni himself. In the vision of the Lotus Sūtra, Buddhas are ultimately immortal

 

This lead me to believe that it was the Lotus sutra is what lead to bhuddha becoming immortal but what of the 3 vehicles and vajrayana

 

and then I read this.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Sutra

that there are not actually Three Vehicles (three kinds of teachings, each tailored to the capacity of a specific set of practitioners) as previously taught, but only One Vehicle (Skrt. Ekayāna, the Buddha’s ultimate teaching transcending limitations in the capacity of practitioners) leading to Buddhahood.^[20]

 

So then I understood that there is no difference between great power and great attainment because buddha is said to belong to another well known powerful sect.....

[Daeluin]

Stop insulting my intelligence! The earth or it's yellow dragon is not the center of the universe.That view is anthropocentric.

 

I think what is trying to be said here is that in five element theory earth is the center. Not the planet, the "element." This applies to any layer, be it the earth, the universe, the body, the spirit.

 

In Neidan people cultivate the golden elixir, or golden light, which cannot come into being until everything else is in balance, and is directly related to the mysterious gate, which is like a gateway beyond 3 dimensional reality back to the center of the universe, which is everywhere and nowhere all at once. Who knows how many dimensions there are - is there a limit? The point of Neidan is to return to the tao, not explore other facets of creation, however spiritual they may be.

 

To really get there on a deeper level, it helps to recognize how that gravity thing pulling us down to the Earth (planet) is a part of the dynamic of balance we are operating in. Likewise, the Earth is connected to the gravity of the Sun, the Sun to the gravity of the center of the Milky Way, and so on. By rooting to this gravity we are able to connect more deeply with this physically oriented center that is in polarity with the celestial center. By cultivating earthly receptivity, we increase our capacity to contain heavenly light, and when we mix them all together we are able to create a golden light that blooms in balance. And to truly transcend our physical bodies, rather than just sending the light off like a cut flower and leaving behind a corpse, we need to root all the way back to what some call the Central Sun. Is this anthropocentric?

 

The WuJi posture in taiji, etc, is directly related to this, as Wu is the yang of celestial energy, and Ji is the yin of celestial energy. The "10 celestial stems" are considered to be very pure, celestial "five element" energies. Their counterpart are the "12 Earthly branches," Earthly in this context referring to more base planet-bound energies, which are just combinations of the "10 celestial stems," much as molecules are combinations of atomic elements. Both stems and branches contain all five element phases, including that of earth (center). However earth of these more pure celestial stems is considered to be the center of these celestial energies (which are contained within the physical and spiritual realms), and the yin and yang earth celestial stems are named Wu and Ji. When one is able to refine all their energies back to this central polarity of yin and yang, Wu and JI, one finds tao. So transcending in both the physical and spiritual senses.

 

In Chinese Astrology, there are 4 seasons - Winter (water), Spring (wood), Summer (fire), and Autumn (metal). Between each of these seasons is a month for the phase of earth, which helps to transition between the other phases, brining harmony. In Neidan, before the five phases have been balanced and there is still major polarity between water and fire, earth is called the "yellow woman go between," residing in the middle and receptively assisting everything to remain in balance. The earth phase is associated with the color yellow, so all references to gold are references to this phase. The emphasis is not on just light, but golden light. The trigram of earth ☷ is associated with the planet Earth in terms of Earth's receptivity to allowing all manner of things to be grown upon it, stored within it, built upon it, etc, and ultimately it is also connected in the same way with Emptiness (time and space) and Stillness. In Emptiness and Stillness we develop the capacity to harness spiritual power. Even as people focus on the blooming flower or body of yang, they so easily miss that which has been developed in order to receive and hold these things.

 

I mostly posted this as it is tiring to see all of this back and forth dancing when it is all so simple. No need to cultivate earthly energy if you do not feel so drawn - the heavenly dominant path is also full of glorious beings and such, but this is not what the ultimate goal of Neidan is all about. Neidan focuses on reaching the root and considers all else to be a side path. But hey, without all those side paths, of which some are extremely highly evolved, there'd not really be much at all to do in this universe. May everyone get to where their divine way leads as they are able, without tripping over terminology and dogma. Peace out.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Daeluin

[JinlianPai]

In neidan people cultivate the golden elixir, or golden light

 

Very very very correct

[JinlianPai]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Light_Sutra

The Golden Light Sutra became one of the most important sutras in Japan because of its fundamental message, which teaches that theFour Heavenly Kings (Chinese: 四大天王; pinyin: Sì Dàtiānwáng) protect the ruler who governs his country in the proper manner.^[6]

Edited February 11, 2015 by JinlianPai

[JinlianPai]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Light_Sutra

the sutra describes four Buddhas who dwell in the four cardinal directions.

[JinlianPai]

Now what of the 5th guardian the most powerful the golden dragon of the earth?

 

This is what i was running into....

[JinlianPai]

Well then the question became and just to be sure does the practitioners of Mahayana buddhism attain rainbow body?

 

The answer is Yes.

 

 

http://www.jamesabarrett.com/page1/rainbow.html

Mahaparinirvana, meaning, "great complete, Nirvana", where as Parinirvana is the “final nirvana”. Mahaparinirvana on the other hand is the sublime state realized by the soul; a state in which the Buddha being full attains "the Eternal Pure" no-self state of awareness.

It is considered the ultimate attainment of Buddhist practice and implies a release from the bhavachakra, Saṃsāra, karma and rebirth as well as the dissolution of all worldly physical and mental aggregates.

This level of release has the potential of dissolving the physical form completely beyond three dimensional time based reality.
In fact in Dzogchen there are four general classifications called "appearances".

[Chang]

Now what of the 5th guardian the most powerful the golden dragon of the earth?

 

This is what i was running into....

Moderator Message

The hijacking of threads by use of staccato posting is not encouraged on the forum and adds nothing to discussion.

Please discontinue this practice.

[Astral Monk]

This thread is a real education, if not hard to keep up with Thanks to all who are moving the discussion along.

 

One take away I got from this is to be aware of the distiction between processes and methods when refering to textual descriptions of neidan and qigong. Many paths might agree on a process to experience or a gate to pass through, but only a few have tangible methods that bring results. The rest are stuck with poetry, which leads to interpretation, which leads to speculation, which results in deviation.

 

One signpost to help us navigate the complex world of neidan.

 

8)

[LaoZiDao]

which leads to interpretation, which leads to speculation, which results in deviation.

 

Well said Astral Monk.

[JinlianPai]

 

Moderator Message

The hijacking of threads by use of staccato posting is not encouraged on the forum and adds nothing to discussion.

Please discontinue this practice.

Gothcha wasnt my intent please side step my post I dont want to ruin any prior conversation.

[JinlianPai]

When it comes to the Jindan the golden elixir

 

The Gum Guang or golden light....

 

Does anyone see this when they train either internally or externally?

 

My other point is Ive seen on here that a lot of qigong teachers like and respect the secret of the Golden flower but there methods are different and the book is used as a reference.

 

Then this becomes the questions is there just a direct method that culitvates the Jindan as Gum Guang golden light?

[damdao]

When it comes to the Jindan the golden elixir

 

The Gum Guang or golden light....

 

Does anyone see this when they train either internally or externally?

 

My other point is Ive seen on here that a lot of qigong teachers like and respect the secret of the Golden flower but there methods are different and the book is used as a reference.

 

Then this becomes the questions is there just a direct method that culitvates the Jindan as Gum Guang golden light?

I don't think that in neidan, golden light could be cultivated directly, at least not through visualizations (that are post-heaven).

There is a golden light meditation and golden light mantra, some schools use it as part of a mystical qigong.

I think that in neidan the golden light surrounding the practitioner is a sign of progress.

By the way, as you seem interested in comparing sources, the metaphor of the flower of the soul is even found in Proclus, in the neoplatonism.

[JinlianPai]

I don't think that in neidan, golden light could be cultivated directly, .

 

Why?

 

Practitioners of the Secret of the Golden flower the descendants of the Golden Lotus. If there are practitioners of this then why cant the golden elixir be made manifest?

 

I think that in neidan the golden light surrounding the practitioner is a sign of progress.

[blue eyed snake]

hmm,

 

I don't think that scientists would have gone into a frenzy, an able neurologist would probably have diagnosed you with pseudo-epilepsy. A relatively common condition in people suffering from prolonged stress.

 

I've experienced this several times in the first months of my qigongtraject. And one of the first times was just about as strong as what you describe. Happily I was laying on a soft mattress and not on a hard medical bench.

 

My teacher is very dry about it, he says it's simply blockages getting removed, like sneezing. Good riddance with old shit so to say. He would say it is common.

 

Probably not what you want to hear...

 

Bes

 

Yesterday-evening I saw that zoom replied to my post, he gave a polite answer and a more detailed description of his experience. But I decided to reply today. He has emptied that post but I find I still want to reply, because I recognize some things that I have also questions about.

 

firstly, because of that description I find that the concept pseudo-epilepsy doen't fit his description.

 

second, he tells something like: by focusing on the upper dantien his lower dantien became fiercely activated. This producing two effects 1) a falling sensation in his head, 2) a moving of the bench he was laying on while at the same time he said that his body was relaxed.

 

This set me to thinking. I once ended up lying on the floor of the dojo...while I am sure that I started standing up No idea how I came on the floor, someone who had seen me doing it told me that I did a beautiful prostration ( grin). But there is no memory whatsoever, these things happen oftener, i know from myself, I've read it here on the forum.

 

So I have to conclude that Zooms body involuntarily moved, moved by input of flowing energy through his body.

 

( just like the hopping followers of the maharishi ( no insult meant here) they are quite sure that they are experiencing the first stage of levitation, research has been done ( video etc) and they do use the muscles of their legs. Without being it aware of it. I find that very interesting. And it feels good that I'm not alone in these things.

 

Further, even though I never consciously start focusing on the upper dantien, sometimes in meditation/standing posture, the upper dantien knocks on my door so loudly that awareness just travels there. With results remarkably close to zooms experience.

------------

 

Even though I'm an absolute beginner I find that remarkable things are happening to both mind and body. It goes fast for me, right now I have, on advise of my teacher, almost stopped exercising, because my body simply can't handle the amount of energy that comes into it when doing standing posture.

 

And some of these things tended to make my ego inflated, like, whew.... in three big steps I will have reached the top of that mountain.... ....Now I know better, there just road-signs of what ( I think) open dao so aptly calls the zeroth stage

I thank my teacher for the gentle ways in which he is able to deflate that ego to healthy proportions....when I'm driving home the deflated variant always feels better than the inflated variant driving to the dojo, strange but true.

 

Open dao says something like: teachers care about results, not experiences. That maybe so for his teacher, i don't know. I tend to see these things as signs of progress, and I'm sure that my teacher wants to see progress ( remember, medical qigong, goal here is giving people the ability to heal their bodies)

 

On the other hand, having read this thread, (and having wondered why people who are looking for enlightening or something like that do squabble so much ) I start wondering what my teacher teaches to the students of his other class, the class you have to ask admittance for, and motivate why you want to get into it.

 

I've had a long talk with one of his senior students and what I hear comes close to some things that are here termed Neidan.

Edited February 12, 2015 by blue eyed snake

[Daeluin]

In my experience, extreme experiences were exciting, but not helpful. They were more akin to chemically encouraged experiences - temporary and out of our control.

 

After having many such temporary experiences, all of them different and educating, but none permanent, I began to realize how important constancy, refinement, and gradual progress were, in terms of cultivating the conditions to lead to stable, harmonious and permanent results.

 

I've had one run-in with the golden elixir, and it happened when I was in a more stable, egoless, very refined and calm state, and even then I could not maintain the delicate balance enough to slip into the mysterious pass. But it was enough to understand, and was unmistakable. But the key is not to attach to the experience, to put it on a pedestal, but to learn from the experience. Any experience is just a stepping stone for the next experience - if we attach to it, it becomes more difficult to get beyond it. Even the golden elixir is just a minor blip on the way.

 

Refinement is key. Refinement is balance. One needs to be fully balanced and harmonized in every aspect of themselves in order to work with the golden elixir and mysterious pass. Extremes tend to work like a sine wave, drawing you up and down repeatedly. Even when you think you are stable, an extreme from the same time last month or last year might can pull one out of balance. This is why it helps to pay attention to the solar and lunar cycles - the more balanced we become, the more we can tangibly feel the ebbs and flows of these cycles.

[JinlianPai]

In my experience, extreme experiences were exciting, but not helpful. They were more akin to chemically encouraged experiences - temporary and out of our control.

 

After having many such temporary experiences, all of them different and educating, but none permanent, I began to realize how important constancy, refinement, and gradual progress were, in terms of cultivating the conditions to lead to stable, harmonious and permanent results.

 

I've had one run-in with the golden elixir, and it happened when I was in a more stable, egoless, very refined and calm state, and even then I could not maintain the delicate balance enough to slip into the mysterious pass. But it was enough to understand, and was unmistakable. But the key is not to attach to the experience, to put it on a pedestal, but to learn from the experience. Any experience is just a stepping stone for the next experience - if we attach to it, it becomes more difficult to get beyond it. Even the golden elixir is just a minor blip on the way.

 

Refinement is key. Refinement is balance. One needs to be fully balanced and harmonized in every aspect of themselves in order to work with the golden elixir and mysterious pass. Extremes tend to work like a sine wave, drawing you up and down repeatedly. Even when you think you are stable, an extreme from the same time last month or last year might can pull one out of balance. This is why it helps to pay attention to the solar and lunar cycles - the more balanced we become, the more we can tangibly feel the ebbs and flows of these cycles.

 

Thanks for the reply and that sounds like a cool exp.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Now heres my question to the board in general. Shouldnt the Jindan alchemy fill you to over abundance of the golden elixir?

[JinlianPai]

My question is extended to the WuliPai guys as well....

 

Do you see Golden light when you train internal or externally?

 

Given your training what do you think the golden elixir is?

[Daeluin]

Thanks for the reply and that sounds like a cool exp.

 

Not really anything special.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Putting yourself out there, exposed to the the criticism of others is an easy way to get humbled. But I'm not worried about that at this point as I have some clarity. I hope what I share is able to lead others more towards clarity than confusion, and overall I would advice caution in regards to sharing of experiences.

 

Now heres my question to the board in general. Shouldnt the Jindan alchemy fill you to over abundance of the golden elixir?

 

Interesting question. One I do not feel qualified to answer. The Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji seems to suggest the need to circulate the golden elixir to refine the body. But I would need to study a bit more to speculate with any clarity.

 

Do you have ideas about this you'd like to share?

[ralis]

I think what is trying to be said here is that in five element theory earth is the center. Not the planet, the "element." This applies to any layer, be it the earth, the universe, the body, the spirit.

 

In Neidan people cultivate the golden elixir, or golden light, which cannot come into being until everything else is in balance, and is directly related to the mysterious gate, which is like a gateway beyond 3 dimensional reality back to the center of the universe, which is everywhere and nowhere all at once. Who knows how many dimensions there are - is there a limit? The point of Neidan is to return to the tao, not explore other facets of creation, however spiritual they may be.

 

To really get there on a deeper level, it helps to recognize how that gravity thing pulling us down to the Earth (planet) is a part of the dynamic of balance we are operating in. Likewise, the Earth is connected to the gravity of the Sun, the Sun to the gravity of the center of the Milky Way, and so on. By rooting to this gravity we are able to connect more deeply with this physically oriented center that is in polarity with the celestial center. By cultivating earthly receptivity, we increase our capacity to contain heavenly light, and when we mix them all together we are able to create a golden light that blooms in balance. And to truly transcend our physical bodies, rather than just sending the light off like a cut flower and leaving behind a corpse, we need to root all the way back to what some call the Central Sun. Is this anthropocentric?

 

In terms of the five elements, it is the five senses that are the basis of the elements. That is to say, these so called elements are physical qualities as opposed to what is found in the periodic table of elements. A very simple way of relating to the external world.

 

You stated being "rooted to this gravity"; how can one be more rooted when gravity is a constant here? Perhaps more aware?

 

There is no basis for a so called central sun, but there is evidence for a massive black hole i.e, event horizon, in the center of our galaxy. A non rotating phenomenon which distorts space/time in the local vicinity. The scale of such a black hole is upwards of billions of solar masses. Your implication that a central sun is the basis of gravity and rotation of our galaxy simply is not true. That would require a mass not yet observed.

 

Returning to the Tao is not mutually exclusive for exploring infinite aspects of the Tao.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ralis

[ralis]

Perhaps Brian our resident physicist can expand on what I just stated.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ralis

[JinlianPai]

Interesting question. One I do not feel qualified to answer. The Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji seems to suggest the need to circulate the golden elixir to refine the body. But I would need to study a bit more to speculate with any clarity.

 

Do you have ideas about this you'd like to share?

 

Yes.

 

That the golden elixir is luminous and radiant and can be directly cultivated.

 

To transmute the bodies energies to pure spiritual gold that resonates with the core of this planet.

[Daeluin]

I don't feel scientific knowledge reaches the root. On a scientific level I agree with what you say, but my intuition says it is much deeper than that. I wonder how accurately scientific thinking really understands what is beyond this event horizon. I know we have some very brilliant theories, and I am humbled by the great minds who understand these things. But deep within me I sense there is something beyond. I'd love to hear what Brian feels.

 

As far as rooting goes, when the vessels in the legs open up and circulate, one can energetically pull into a deeper connection to gravity. In doing so one also increases the energetic depth and capacity within the body, and ability to root more deeply to heaven from the top of the head.

 

Some masters will demonstrate rooting by standing in a neutral stance and having people attempt to push them over, which cannot be done. They don't appear to resist physically at all - it comes from energetic strength on the physical level, controlled by the mind intent. So even as gravity is a constant, perhaps this is like being able to make oneself heavier? It'd be curious to see if this type of rooting changes the reading of a scale... chances are it wouldn't be that simple to detect.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Daeluin

[voidisyinyang]

There's been several references to my comments so I will reply.

 

Bluemind stated that the super-secret Neidan school dude was "arguing" with me about what Taoist Yoga meant. I have argued plenty times before - like when I was in graduate school at the U of MN I argued with the General Counsel at the University - in nine meetings that took place over a year. I won the argument. The super-secret Neidan school quoting half-sentences from the Taoist Yoga book is not an "argument" and so I have to disagree with Bluemind. The super-secret Neidan school not only resorted to quoting half sentences - the examples were a half sentence about the penis standing erect, a half sentence about generative force, and a false reference to farting - all three of those examples were then lied about. The lie about the penis standing erect was that it meant energy had been lost. In fact the rest of that sentence said to gather the energy when the penis is erect. The lie about the generative force was again that energy had been lost when in fact the rest of the sentence says the generative force changes to fluid which is lost. And finally the secret-super Neidan school claimed that Taoist Yoga says farting causes loss of energy - in fact the book says that farting is fine but that shen can be lost out of the anus - so just be careful you are actually just passing gas and not shen. That is not so crazy - the same information is discussed in Bill Bodri and Master Nan, Huai-chin's tome, "Measuring Meditation."

 

So my question to Bluemind is - yes the super-secret Neidan school is super-secret but they have to resort to lying about other Neidan teachings. That is no longer super-secret.

 

O.K. so then someone else commented that if I am so focused on spirituality then why did I have to write "penis" so many times? That is a logical error. I didn't write "penis" so many times - I was quoting the Taoist Yoga book which writes penis so many times. See the difference? Now I have seen on the advertised Neigong Forum that they agree that celibacy in itself is not essential to the spiritual training. Again the Taoist Yoga book completely disproves this by detailing the physiological reasons of how jing is purified into qi energy and so it is stored up and without constant attention it can also then be deconverted back into fluid. So for the Neigong people to say - yeah Mopai says just don't practice alchemy until 3 days after sex - this is silly. As Taoist Yoga details - you have to store up your jing energy for at least 3 months just to start filling up the lower tan tien. So once you blow that stored up load - it will be a big blow of load that has been deconverted. You won't even know that unless you do the training. For example I went 6 months last year without ejaculation - so I know from experience how much energy is lost.

 

O.K. so - then also the super-secret Neidan school says yes qigong is o.k. to just restore your jing energy before you even start the "real" training. Wow - big news! (sarcasm). Again Taoist Yoga points this out in detail - there are different stages to the small universe practice. But the super-secret Neidan school thinks that 100 days of celibacy is enough (for immortality). What a joke! haha. Even the qigong courses also teach this 100 days foundation training. Yes before that the small universe is just building up "yin chi" and is not yet the "real" yang qi energy. Yes I know that most people never even reach the "yang qi" level. This is called Nirvikalpa Samadhi in Vedia Yoga and Vivekananda said the same thing - it is actually an advanced state that most people never reach but in actuality it is just the start of real meditation! I realize that qigong doesn't emphasize advance training - like I said Chunyi mentioned it once that I heard - saying no thoughts about sex are allowed for advanced training. That was in 2000. Obviously not many can hold that standard - just writing or talking about this subject goes against it. The real training is going to be done in silence in a purified environment. But then again - the real training is available for anyone who wants to do it.

 

O.K. so then ZOOM shared his enlightenment energy experience and said that I could probably quote from Taoist Yoga to confirm his experience. Indeed Taoist Yoga shares a similar experience of the person's face seemingly falling back into his head, down into his body, and then he experiences the Tai Chi. So Zoom though insists that Taoist Yoga teaches in the first chapter that the energy is somehow "shot down" to the lower tan tien. Zoom has made this claim several times but he has never quoted from Taoist Yoga to back up his claim. I urge him to do so - I have no idea what you are referring to Zoom.

 

In terms of the lower tan tien as the Cavity of Spirit-Vitality and the Cavity of Spirit as the heart expressed out of the eyes and the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality as the pineal gland - when we connect the latter two then the lower tan t'ien is created as a new energy center. So in your experience Zoom you say that the MING was pulled up to the upper tan t'ien based on the yang qi in the jing getting pulled out as a like-like principle - by focusing on the spirit light energy in the brain. So in Western science a good analogy for this is a laser that resonates based on frequency of light - so you create the same frequency and then there is a feedback as a harmonic oscillator and through resonance the laser builds up in amplitude intensity - the number of photons increase, just like pushing a swing, the increase in amplitude is from the timing of the pushing (or in this case the immutable thought that goes into the Emptiness as Taoist Yoga teaches). If the light is a higher frequency then the frequency energy intensity increases, etc. In terms of the lower tan t'ien - it is created out of the Cavity of Vitality which is below the abdomen. ZOOM referred to the lower tan t'ien as below the abdomen but in fact the lower tan t'ien is behind the abdomen. So the cavity of Vitality is the stored up yin jing energy that is ionized by the Cavity of Spirit fire descending - the yin chi converts the yin jing into yang jing or yin chi. This in turn is pulled up, yin chi, sublimated into the pineal gland as the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality which then turns it into yang chi as light energy - yin shen - which is seen internally in the brain. This, in turn, increases the spirit of the heart, the Cavity of Spirit - the yin shen, which in turn has more yin chi energy to better convert more of the yin jing energy into yang jing (yin chi). So that is the positive feedback loop of energy creation.

 

So that is the cycle of alchemy - how it works. So Zoom then referred to how other traditions just focus on light in the third eye as enough. This is true but the problem is that it can cause kundalini syndrome because too much energy stuck in the brain and Taoist Yoga even refers to this - saying when the qi rises up from the heart into the brain it causes too much energy for the person. This can work from the top down also - for example Poonjaji shot shakti energy into a young Western male - shakti being the shen laser energy - and the man was running around for a couple days in a manic state screaming that he was Jesus. That is detailed in the memoir of Poonjaji, Nothing Ever Happens. So after that Poonjaji did not use as much energy. The same thing has been described by the qigong master - when I told him how he made the center of my brain on fire - he said that back then (in 2003) he used to use a lot more energy but then the original qigong master told him not to use so much.

 

Whether Zoom had enough energy for his macro-psychokinetic experience - it is possible. My new blogpost describes the qigong master recently having some amazing macro-psychokinetic experiences. http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/02/my-latest-greatest-with-qigong-master.html

 

But what we have to realize is that when these enlightenment experiences happen as a taste of what Taoist Yoga calls "positive spirit" - yang qi, yuan qi, yin shen energy - they in fact are a nondual experience that fills the body with strong electromagnetic energy and also moves the spirit out of the body. So the answer to this is to store the energy better in the lower tan tien. As the small universe practice focuses on - the lower tan tien is the safe store battery of the body and so for example in chapter 11 of Taoist Yoga it states that if your yin shen spirit leaves the body without enough yang qi enveloping it then this causes dizziness. I had this happen to me but at the time I didn't understand why - (the dizziness is actually a spacetime vortex) because I never thought I could experience something described so much later in the book. So I had not studied the book well enough that far along into it. haha.

 

So then readers of ZOOM's statement said yes but he needed to stabilize that experience - or as the super-secret Neidan school said about another person reporting the opening of their small universe channels - there needs to be a permanent transformation. This is true - it is true for whether it is qigong training or neidan training. Those are just terminologies - they don't change the actualities on the ground. As the original qigong master says - there first has to be a foundation built up in the lower tan tien - as the foundation for the higher frequency energy.

 

This stuff (the N/om of the belly as the fire hot electromagnetic snake energy) has been going on since the original human culture that all humans arise from - the Bushmen in Africa have a N/om snake energy statue that some date back to 70,000 BCE) - all the males were required to undergo the spiritual energy training and it is the same as the Neidan training. haha. But the thing to remember is that original the spiritual energy was used to heal the females. It's only that some males went off by themselves to store up their energy and by doing so developed the yang shen abilities - to shapeshift into lions, etc. So then the rest of the tribe became afraid of these males. Then from that origin, alchemy spread into Egypt from Ethiopia - but that is its original roots. It was picked up by Arabic culture based on the ancient Greeks studying in Egypt and then also it spread into India, China, etc. but obviously its original roots are in Africa. The point is that the energy development process starts from the Emptiness and ends in the Emptiness also - that is the nondual nature of it - it develops via the complementary opposite male-female principles expressed as body-mind transformation.

 

So sure we can all hope to learn from the super-secret Neidan school but information is not much use without practice. Since this is a forum it's based on information sharing but the Neidan school remains super-secret (except for their necessary lies about qigong and other Neidan teachings). For me personally - Emptiness is infinite energy - if someone is dependent on attacking others to put them down - in order to raise themselves up - this is by definition not a nondualist approach to reality as being a win-win infinite situation. Instead it's a typical materialist Western dualist approach to reality.

 

Against the Taoist Yoga book it's been said it contains a lot of practical information - but that on its own is nothing wrong. haha. People for the Neidan school have referenced the ancient Taoist teachers as the real lineage. This is true but then the Ch'an Buddhist debates with the Taoists record these differences which in fact are not really different - the nondualist foundation of the teaching remains and people can argue all they want about the fancy terms used in Chinese or whatever other language. haha. The Bushmen when they use their magical singing to induce the trance dance training - the words are almost always just mumbo-jumbo meaningless words. Chuang-Tzu makes this same point when he says that human language is no different than birds chirping or other animal noises that seem more or less meaningless to us humans. But as Taoist Yoga states - there is one type of dream that is real and not just a dream. Neidan can say that the small universe is fake - but the storing up of yin chi energy is measured by real results.

 

So the only real way to test the validity of the Taoist Yoga book is to try it out - practice it and see what happens. But then again the standards are very strict so success will be rare. Is it dangerous? I suppose - as I've reported I made the errors that are warned against in the book. But I only learned of those errors by going back to study the book more - despite seeking out advice from the qigong masters. They indeed help me though - more than the book - because the qigong master actually cleared out all the bad energy - the lower emotional yin jing energy blockages I had sucked in through my perineum from people over about 8 years experience. The Taoist Yoga book refers to this as "bad air" that is taken into the body. But the good news is that with continued practice and persistence then the errors can be fixed and improved upon. I am working to do so. I don't have any regrets but has it been dangerous? Yep - I accidentally pulled a lady's spirit out of the top of her head - without touching her - and she bawled nonstop for at least 15 minutes. As the qigong teaches - it is good, better and best - why? Because again we are working from the nondual reality as the foundation of the teaching - call it whatever fancy Neidan term you want. haha.