opendao Posted November 30, 2013 Nothing wrong with sitting meditation nor using other methods that some call "non-contrived". What is your relation to Neidan, so you can prove that "nothing wrong" with sitting meditation? Can you describe what's happening during a proper Dazuo, why it is considered dangerous and how your school solve such problems? Why can't people just do their thing and not force their truth on others? Why don't you follow your advice? The theme started with the fact that people like you started to force others to believe that sitting meditation is Neidan and the main method. So far they have nothing to reply, so let's see what arguments you have... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted November 30, 2013 Neidan is a most natural 'non-practice' It is beautifully explained in the works of Liu I Ming, The Secret Of The Golden Flower (Thomas Cleary translation !), The Yijing, The Dao De Jing, The Zhuangzi, The Yin Convergence Classic, as well as in non-daoist works such as the teachings of Japanese Zen master Bankei. It has absolutely nothing to do with contrived practices such as sitting meditation. Anyone interested in such a 'non-practice' should also read the marvelous posts of deci belle. If I understand you correctly, then you are wrong: Neidan practice is a practice that students do. If you refer 'non-practice' as wuwei, then nobody on this forum reached that level yet, so it has no big sense to discuss it. Liu I Ming defined quite accurate when 'non-doing' is possible. But WuWei in Neidan is also a practice! But I agree with you that sitting meditation is unnatural for the human nature. That's why btw it produces quick effects (not results) that people start to discuss on forums and build their sects around such effects. From Neidan perspective it's wrong, it has to be clear for people that it's wrong, that's why masters of the past obviously warned about it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted November 30, 2013 And how do you know ? you will know it when you got what wuwei is and what is the result of such practice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted November 30, 2013 What is your relation to Neidan, so you can prove that "nothing wrong" with sitting meditation? What is your relationship to neidan, so that you can prove there's something wrong with sitting meditation? Can you describe what's happening during a proper Dazuo, Can you describe Dazuo in English, or are you too cool for that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted November 30, 2013 What is your relationship to neidan, so that you can prove there's something wrong with sitting meditation? I did it many times on this forum, my dear friend. Good morning :-) Are you too cool to dare to read the entire thread? You will find the quotes from my lineage and why Dazuo is wrong according to Neidan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted November 30, 2013 What I meant by my question: How do you know that "nobody on this forum reached that level yet ?" by logic, just by logic, nothing supernatural, don't worry. Wu Wei people are not ordinary people, they don't like to discuss on forums. There is a reason for that, and the reason is the result of Wu Wei. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted November 30, 2013 (edited) OK, I'll slog through it again. I guess I have to look up Dazuo online then. Edited November 30, 2013 by Starjumper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted November 30, 2013 (edited) OK then, it looks like Dazuo is zazen,the zen posture. I agree that practice by itself has fail written all over it. Before I look for your other posts in this thread I'll shred Adept's earlier comments, some of which you appear to agree with. (you know what's stupid on this forum, the smiley face that you click at the top of the write box isn't included in the ones available to post, and it's the best one. Now that's stupid) Edited November 30, 2013 by Starjumper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted November 30, 2013 Perhaps they do come here. Mainly for the humor (my guess). Instead of watching TV. You are free to believe in shenxians watching TV or writing on forums :-) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted November 30, 2013 OK, I'll slog through it again. I guess I have to look up Dazuo online then. example of Dazuo, obvious stillness, obvious quietude, no thoughts : Is it obvious that there is too much Yin? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antares Posted November 30, 2013 But Shamatha and Vipassana are the part of their tradition. It' not Neidan. There are many dynamic practices that you forgot to mention here. I hope you won't state here that tummo is nothing to do with real transformation. Don't ask me to prove it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
opendao Posted November 30, 2013 But Shamatha and Vipassana are the part of their tradition. It' not Neidan. There are many dynamic practices that you forgot to mention here. I hope you won't state here that tummo is nothing to do with real transformation. Don't ask me to prove it. We discussed Dazuo, the video shows what Dazuo is by the results! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted November 30, 2013 example of Dazuo, obvious stillness, obvious quietude, no thoughts : Is it obvious that there is too much Yin? Ya, well they're doing it all wrong, with their eyes open, sheesh. Yes, I can tell, not one of them has the inner smile. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted December 1, 2013 Oops, oh my gosh. Don't think for one second that when I mention the inner smile that I think Chia knows anything about it, he doesn't. It has nothing to do with his BS. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adept Posted December 1, 2013 (edited) Adept, I have a question. You speak as if all methods are contrived. Can you point to any method that is not contrived? Self inquiry. Maybe what I've been posting is more in line with Advaita Vedanta than with Neidan ? Edited December 1, 2013 by adept Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted December 1, 2013 Perhaps they do come here. Mainly for the humor (my guess). Instead of watching TV. Watching TV, no. Reading Taoist forums for humor, yes, probably sometimes rolling on the floor laughing. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted December 1, 2013 (edited) Self inquiry. The best self inquiry happens when a person is attempting to stop thinking during meditation but 'fails' and thoughts arise anyway. This is actually not failure, it is the process a person has to go through to know themselves, for with some practice, the thoughts will come from a deeper place in the emotions. It isn't until all these aspects of your life have been reviewed that it is then easier to stop thinking. Maybe what I've been posting is more in line with Advaita Vedanta than with Neidan ? I'm not qualified to answer that since my grasp of the lingo in both cases is scant. Notice that Wu Ming Jen 'liked' my comment where I said it looked like neidan is like arriving at the formless in practice. To me this is not the same as having no method but I'll get to that later. Edited December 1, 2013 by Starjumper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ish Posted December 1, 2013 example of Dazuo, obvious stillness, obvious quietude, no thoughts : Is it obvious that there is too much Yin? You have no idea what their internal state is, so why pretend? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antares Posted December 1, 2013 We discussed Dazuo, the video shows what Dazuo is by the results! What' wrong with theirs results? Do not look young? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted December 1, 2013 You have no idea what their internal state is, so why pretend? Well, evidently someone has no idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ish Posted December 1, 2013 Well, evidently someone has no idea. care to explain Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted December 1, 2013 (edited) Well, what you said about them is really about yourself, and you said this: "You have no idea what their internal state is" There is a thing called face reading, which you can learn, but those with a more opened crown point can do it instinctively. I have more energy going out the top of my head in one second than most people have going through their bodies in a week - so I know stuff without knowing why. Also, we hear lots of BS, from BSrs, about a chakra being 'opened' or 'closed', but that just BS - as if there are only the two absolutes and no gray area, which is, of course, BS. There is only more energized or less energized. Edited December 1, 2013 by Starjumper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted December 1, 2013 (edited) There can be no other starting point ! One thing certain to us is that we are human, and as such, have certain contemplative qualities. It is human nature that drives us to look for answers to life's BIG QUESTIONS. Without human nature we become detached and emotionless. A shell without any substance. This is incorrect, mental jerking off is not original human nature. Awareness and thinking are mutually exclusive, I chose the one and you chose the other, but it's awareness that is closer to original human nature. In the past I meditated every day and even took to attending Buddhist monasteries for what I thought was correct instruction. After a time I noticed I was becoming more and more detached from the world, something I never wanted to happen when I started my spiritual journey. I never found my true nature by meditating. I realized it didn't need to be found when I stopped meditating. Ah, but detachment is precisely one of the signposts along the Way. That is why Lao Tzu sez that the sage treats people like straw dogs. In other words, the sage treats them kindly but doesn't really give a damn if they burn in hell or not. Edited December 1, 2013 by Starjumper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ish Posted December 1, 2013 Well, what you said about them is really about yourself, and you said this: "You have no idea what their internal state is" There is a thing called face reading, which you can learn, but those with a more opened crown point can do it instinctively. I have more energy going out the top of my head in one second than most people have going through their bodies in a week - so I know stuff without knowing why. Also, we hear lots of BS, from BSrs, about a chakra being 'opened' or 'closed', but that just BS - as if there are only the two absolutes and no gray area, which is, of course, BS. There is only more energized or less energized. If you could actually read their energy, you wouldn't have made the comment "that they are doing it all wrong". There's no debate here - since its based on our own abilities and we can't prove it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted December 1, 2013 (edited) Sorry, I wasn't serious about them doing it all wrong, it was a joke, exageration, hyperbole, sarcasm, or something. However, they did not have the kind of joy that would show as an inner smile, and you can see an inner smile if you know where to look, and how. There may be debate but I don't expect to see anyone prove anything on a forum. Please, never use the word 'prove' on a forum, it's all hearsay. Edited December 1, 2013 by Starjumper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
