Neidan vs Qigong

[Ish]

Nvm

Edited December 1, 2013 by Ish

[adept]

I have more energy going out the top of my head in one second than most people have going through their bodies in a week - so I know stuff without knowing why.

 

Whatever. With statements like that, it's obvious you view yourself as better than others. This thread has now run it's course and I'll no longer take part in it.

Edited December 2, 2013 by adept

[Starjumper]

Though I agree that qigong and neidan work with different sides of the pre and post heaven states, there may be error in saying that they can't work on both.

 

Now there's an understatement!

 

I'll continue reading this thread from the beginning looking for at least one description IN PLAIN ENGLISH of the difference between this pre heaven and post heaven bullshit words.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

 

Whatever. With statements like that, it's obvious you view yourself as better than others.

 

Hey, too bad there's a hierarchy of levels of advancement in cultivation. You admitted your own failure here already, so YES, I'm way better than you are*. Good observation, but you forgot about something: YOU think, I know. Have a nice day.

 

ps. To those without ego problems. I know of plenty of people who are more advanced than I am and it doesn't upset me when they mention this. Also, to use the word better is wrong, I simply have cultivated an ability.

 

All benefits come with burdens.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Starjumper

[johndoe2012]

Thinking is a waste of time. Also thinking of failing

 

"I have failed" is just a thought in your awareness and then we continue our meditation :-)

[adept]

YES, I'm way better than you are*. Good observation, but you forgot about something: YOU think, I know. Have a nice day.

 

What arrogance !

Yes thank you I will have a nice day now that I've put you on ignore.

Only the first time I've ever felt the need to use it in all the years I've been a member here.

[Starjumper]

Nice, now it's possible to discuss his inferiority without him knowing it. =)

 

Interestingly, I was thinking about ignoring him at the same time he did it to me, so I guess I was reading his thoughts.

[Brian]

LMAO

[ChiDragon]

Ya, well they're doing it all wrong, with their eyes open, sheesh.

 

Even though their eyes are open, but their minds are on focus to see what not to see. The stillness was all within their hearts. Thus they can put themselves in a blind state with the eyes open. That was considered to be in the highest state of stillness.

[Starjumper]

I agree, I was having a little fun there with that comment.

 

I myself am struggling with the eyes thing. I've done chi kung (really nei kung, which includes both chi kung and neidan if it's real nei kung) with my eyes closed for so long that I do tai chi with eyes closed too. I'm working on training my habit to have eyes open more.

[dawei]

OpenDao.... some questions to get back to a thread you started:

 

In previous posts:

 

Who knows about Xing and Ming and how they are related to Qi and Shen?

. . .

 

Ming is "fate" and Yuan Qi.

Xing is "nature" and Yuan Shen.

. . .

 

And it's a big mistake to think that Ming is Body or Ming can be restored in the meditation. MING is NOT A BODY.

MING cannot be restored using MEDITATION. MING cannot be restored using physical or Qigong exercises.

 

 

I tend to agree with Ming as 'fate' as it carries the further meaning of where this is supposed to be tied to.

Can you focus more on Ming and comment further on it?

 

 

Is the dual aspect also tied to 'fire and water', 'hun and po', 'heaven and earth' ?

[opendao]

OpenDao.... some questions to get back to a thread you started:

 

In previous posts:

 

 

 

I tend to agree with Ming as 'fate' as it carries the further meaning of where this is supposed to be tied to.

Can you focus more on Ming and comment further on it?

 

Let's discuss relations to the "fate" first. There are many layers of understanding here. But to be short let's say that Ming is Yuan Qi, the primordial energy people receive when they are born.

 

People are not equal when they are born, and their lives are very different as well. From the Daoist point of view, it depends on Xing and Ming, their qualities, these are 2 "souls" in any human being and sometimes they pull a person to absolutely opposite directions. Ming is like a battery, if it's "full" then things are "auspicious" and people have a fortune. When Ming is lost, then there is no fortune and people are dying. That's why it's translated as "fate".

 

But Dao teaching is not fatalistic, it clearly states that anybody can change the fate, return Ming.

 

Is the dual aspect also tied to 'fire and water', 'hun and po', 'heaven and earth' ?

 

Yes, they point to the same phenomena but with additional details (ming before restoring or after etc).

 

Terminology can be different in various Neidan schools or in different times, and even can be very obscure, but if we study these terms in the context of their authorship (same book / author / school / time ) then we will see same patterns in different schools.

[exorcist_1699]

Although China is such a big country and Taoist alchemy has a history of over 2,500 years, Taoist alchemical jargons are strangely very coherent . Terms and jargons appear in those Taoist main writings are always precise , for example, when we see Xing ('性') , Ming ('命') , primordial qi ('先天氣') , Magic Gateway ('玄關') , Gold-in-water ('水中金') ... followers know clearly what they refer to , and should not have too many otherwise interpretation .

 

How about the term " Micro Cosmic circulation"? people may challenge me .

 

MCC likely comes from the Wuliu school , which is originally referred as an important step related to refining the Dan ( essence that gives us immortal life ), so its later re-interpretation by people like TCM doctors or medical qigong practitioners can only be viewed as some kind of vulgarization , some kind of compromise because most people really can't initialize the primordial qi ; so even they can initialize the 'post-heavenly' one and circulate it , Taoists may passively be forced to agree that it be called MCC, provided that it is nothing to do with immortality ...; fortunately such kind of relatively quarrelsome terms are not so many..

Edited August 7, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

... initialize the primordial qi, ...

I know I have never mentioned this before but I really do love the concept of "primordial qi".

 

To the above I would add: "Internalize and initialize primordial qi". (That is because most of us just let primordial qi pass through us rather than internalizing it.)

[exorcist_1699]

I know I have never mentioned this before but I really do love the concept of "primordial qi".

 

To the above I would add: "Internalize and initialize primordial qi". (That is because most of us just let primordial qi pass through us rather than internalizing it.)

 

Hi, Marblehead,

 

Glad to come across you again here ...

[Marblehead]

Hi, Marblehead,

 

Glad to come across you again here ...

Thanks. I normally don't get involved in these kinds of threads but I am a Steward of them so I thought I should make my presence known. Hehehe. (What I said was a truth though.)

[dawei]

Let's discuss relations to the "fate" first. There are many layers of understanding here. But to be short let's say that Ming is Yuan Qi, the primordial energy people receive when they are born.

 

I'm going to paraphrase my understanding why your school follows the idea not to start with Xing Gong;

 

As that simply alters one's Yin to be more Yin. Although there can be preparatory work (whether Xing Gong or Xin Gong), ultimately one is really starting the core practice with Ming Gong. if one doesn't start with Ming (Yang Energy) then there can be no merging to Xing (Yin Soul).

 

 

As Ming is a yang part, the goal is to first restore Yuan Jing which can then be transformed to Yuan Qi (Ming restored); Then this yang energy can be merged to Xing aspect (Yuan Shen) to create a Yang-Shen.

 

 

This is generally what I also understood as the proper way to 'reverse the process' which seems logical if one thinks of the unfolding:

 

Unfolding: Dao > Wu Ji > Yuan Shen > Yuan Qi > Yuan Jing

 

Reversing/Restoring: Jing > Qi > Shen > Wu Ji > Dao

 

 

So it seems to me that the only differences between Yang-first methods and your schools is that you call them Ming Gong and have specific results which will identify it as a true method vs false method.

[opendao]

I'm going to paraphrase my understanding why your school follows the idea not to start with Xing Gong;

 

As that simply alters one's Yin to be more Yin.

 

Plus such practices spends Yang (yuan qi/jing in this context) tremendously. So it moves the practitioner in an opposite direction: instead of collecting and restoring, he/she spends even more then before.

 

Although there can be preparatory work (whether Xing Gong or Xin Gong), ultimately one is really starting the core practice with Ming Gong.

 

Correct, but Xing Gong cannot be a preparatory work, it doesn't have sense (practically) in the beginning. Xin Gong is different though.

 

if one doesn't start with Ming (Yang Energy) then there can be no merging to Xing (Yin Soul).

 

Yes. There are 2 obstacles here, as I see it:

 

1) if Yuan Jing is not restored then it's really hard to bring Xing and Ming back together. There is no "point" where to go.

2) if Yuan Jing is not restored then we have no "fuel" to direct Xing to Ming

 

So it seems to me that the only differences between Yang-first methods and your schools is that you call them Ming Gong and have specific results which will identify it as a true method vs false method.

 

There are no "yang-first methods" outside Neidan schools... Yang in this context means Yuan Jing. All Ming methods in any Neidan school are supposed to accumulate Yuan Jing to a certain extent. False methods cannot do that, for various reasons.

[dawei]

if Yuan Jing is not restored then we have no "fuel" to direct Xing to Ming

 

Yes, I get this point and it is probably the crux which is overlooked. The way to direct Xing to Ming is to start with Ming... this makes Xing easier (later) to arise and merge with Ming. that is my read so far.

 

 

There are no "yang-first methods" outside Neidan schools... Yang in this context means Yuan Jing. All Ming methods in any Neidan school are supposed to accumulate Yuan Jing to a certain extent. False methods cannot do that, for various reasons.

 

I think this is a hard sell from a historical point of view... I mean: Neigong has a long history not just a particular Quanzhen branch of teaching.

 

Do you recognize the last 5,000 years of energy practices which result in, as Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji lists five classes of immortals?

 

Whether it be Nie Ye or Baopuzi or Laozi or Zhuangzi.... they mention those who have 'attained dao'.

[opendao]

I think this is a hard sell from a historical point of view... I mean: Neigong has a long history not just a particular Quanzhen branch of teaching.

 

Do you recognize the last 5,000 years of energy practices which result in, as Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji lists five classes of immortals?

 

Whether it be Nie Ye or Baopuzi or Laozi or Zhuangzi.... they mention those who have 'attained dao'.

 

Yes. And when I say "Neidan schools" I don't mean just Quanzhen or any other "particular branch". I hope I've never ever told that Quanzhen or Wu-Liu Pai are the only Neidan school exist, right? So I don't really understand based on what you made such conclusions...

 

Dmitry Artemyev (my teacher) has spent a lot of time to research and prove that ancient Huang-Lao teaching had the same principles and methods as later Neidan schools. That's why Neidan teachers always highlight that there is only one true method, and this method is the same throughout the history of Dao teaching till our days.

That's also why we speak about Tradition so often... And about lineages that can be tracing back to that ancient time.

 

So for sure there were a lot of people who have practised Neidan and got extraordinary results. And in ancient times it was possible to meet such people much more often then nowadays...

[GrandmasterP]

"Our teaching is based and follows the curriculum of Dao De Daoist Center, founded in Russia in 1993 by Dmitry Artemyev."

 

21- years old.

Venerable.

How those long Russian winters must simply fly by.

Canada too, they've a place in Vancouver.

That can be chilly there.

 

Edited August 7, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[opendao]

"Our teaching is based and follows the curriculum of Dao De Daoist Center, founded in Russia in 1993 by Dmitry Artemyev."

 

21- years old.

Venerable.

How those long Russian winters must simply fly by.

Canada too, they've a place in Vancouver.

That can be chilly there.

 

Come to Van bro, you will see it's much cooler here then "traditional well-being" in UK. We love old trolls like you.

Anything else to say about topic?

[GrandmasterP]

No, you've summed it up nicely.

 

[opendao]

No, you've summed it up nicely.

 

If somebody can explain me what this man is trying to say, I would really appreciate that... Seriously. I don't follow his logic, he explains nothing. Just trolling, sarcasm and no any support for any word in different threads...

 

Yes, the Daode center was founded 21 years ago. So what? Does it change anything I say and what can be supported by texts of various schools founded even when UK was occupied by Vikings?

[dawei]

Yes. And when I say "Neidan schools" I don't mean just Quanzhen or any other "particular branch". I hope I've never ever told that Quanzhen or Wu-Liu Pai are the only Neidan school exist, right? So I don't really understand based on what you made such conclusions...

 

Dmitry Artemyev (my teacher) has spent a lot of time to research and prove that ancient Huang-Lao teaching had the same principles and methods as later Neidan schools. That's why Neidan teachers always highlight that there is only one true method, and this method is the same throughout the history of Dao teaching till our days.

That's also why we speak about Tradition so often... And about lineages that can be tracing back to that ancient time.

 

So for sure there were a lot of people who have practised Neidan and got extraordinary results. And in ancient times it was possible to meet such people much more often then nowadays...

 

I only meant that in the 5,000 years of history, which past writings do you say reflect such teachings? My point was that Quanzhen is quite modern relative to the history... so it must be based on something. I would not suggest it made it all up.

 

But you seem to suggest in 5,000 years, there is only one true method?

 

Huang-Lao is not really ancient as it arose after all the writings I mentioned... it is the summation of thinking which joined Huang Di and Laozi into a philosophical thought, most notably found in the Huainanzi and the great historian Sima Qian was a follower of it.

 

I was suggesting, but I'll say it more explicitly: If you can't relate your current Ming methods, which specific writings of the past reflect neigong?

 

You have said:

 

I ask all that because it's a very common mistake to substitute Pre Heaven by Post Heaven, replace Xin by Mind and Ming by Body. Many schools do that, and I've heard it many times even in China, but it's just so wrong. They don't understand the important difference between Pre Heaven and Post Heaven. But even in DDJ it's described explicitly... Now thousands practice Qigong, but who can achieve Ren Xian level, as it is defined in Neidan? Maybe something important is missed?

 

Ok... so spell it out from the DDJ