Neidan vs Qigong

[Ilkka]

You mean after reading 20 pages you need someone to clarify it all ? Or you skipped the 20 and want someone to clarity it all?

Actually I have read about Nei kung from this certain book that no one in this forum wants to talk about at all, at least it seems that way, most likely they have already discussed about it more than they should have and so on. There are so many threads about so many different things in this site that I simply don't have enough time to go through of it all to get the "bigger picture". Because I am so late to join in to this site

 

I have also read about this bioenergy as they call it in that "pseudoscience" place/site. Bioenergy is therefore all of those different kinds of energies Jing, Chi and Shen, however their speed ranges are different. Jing being kind of stupid energy with lowest speed (sub light). Chi/Qi is intelligent energy on middle speed range (light speed). Shen is conscious energy on ultra high speed range(over light speed). With raising ones own intelligence and awareness one can get more in touch with ones own Chi, which in turn one could transform into Shen and with that could "build" or enhance its own "spirit body". At least this is what I think of it, at the moment. We all live in a constant change so I can too change my mind on somethings.

 

So in short I have no idea about most of the "Tao" discussions that you guys have in here since I haven't read any of the books about them. I have just some info from here and there, but I think I get the "bigger picture" or the conclusion of it all.

[Ish]

Nei Dan = Inner Elixir.

Qi Gong = Energy work.

 

 

So Nei Dan is essentially spiritual cultivation, as you say refining ones energy broadly jing -> qi -> shen until you get the inner elixir or immortal medicine.

 

As you can see one could call this "energy work" in a sense. Though the actual approach to achieve this is beyond techniques or formed approaches.

[Yae]

ooh dawei nice links thanks.

 

Another difference, Qigong Master Chunyi Lin teaches that in order to activate (or create, I'm not sure) the LDT, you should focus on it at all times. I think effilang said something like this, ~"Step 1: Focus on LDT. Step 2: When you lose focus on the LDT, focus back on the LDT."

 

But yeah I guess Wu Liu Pai Neidan wants nothing to do with that.

 

The one connection that I'm still seeing between the two it, Master Lin is ALL about focusing on the Emptiness, the Divine from which all things came. Which is of course, very pre-heaven/primordial.

 

But the elusive Neidan again sidesteps this, because trying to approach the Emptiness by focusing on it is "approaching perfection", using the post heaven faculties/qi instead of Neidan's "reverse perfection". I think that's it anyway.

[Yae]

Oh and the Emptiness is actually basically equal parts Yin and Yang right? But Yan Xin said too much focus on the Emptiness can make you too Yin.

 

Common sensically, Emptiness sounds Yin. Void, receptive, cold. But I was preeetty sure the concept is about the two blended, like matter and energy and void and all blending into... Well, some primordial stuff. So why would Yan Xin say that?

[dawei]

Actually I have read about Nei kung from this certain book that no one in this forum wants to talk about at all, at least it seems that way, most likely they have already discussed about it more than they should have and so on.

 

What is the item or topic(s) you read which are not mentioned yet in this thread?

[Taoist Texts]

Actually I have read about Nei kung from this certain book that no one in this forum wants to talk about at all,

 

Is it the Book That Shall Not Be Named?

[joeblast]

ooh dawei nice links thanks.

 

Another difference, Qigong Master Chunyi Lin teaches that in order to activate (or create, I'm not sure) the LDT, you should focus on it at all times. I think effilang said something like this, ~"Step 1: Focus on LDT. Step 2: When you lose focus on the LDT, focus back on the LDT."

 

But yeah I guess Wu Liu Pai Neidan wants nothing to do with that.

 

The one connection that I'm still seeing between the two it, Master Lin is ALL about focusing on the Emptiness, the Divine from which all things came. Which is of course, very pre-heaven/primordial.

 

But the elusive Neidan again sidesteps this, because trying to approach the Emptiness by focusing on it is "approaching perfection", using the post heaven faculties/qi instead of Neidan's "reverse perfection". I think that's it anyway.

elusive....ehwhat...the meaning of that second to last sentence....that was elusive

 

Oh and the Emptiness is actually basically equal parts Yin and Yang right? But Yan Xin said too much focus on the Emptiness can make you too Yin.

 

Common sensically, Emptiness sounds Yin. Void, receptive, cold. But I was preeetty sure the concept is about the two blended, like matter and energy and void and all blending into... Well, some primordial stuff. So why would Yan Xin say that?

the emptiness IS the yin cultivation.

 

the white ground plug on your electrical is larger than the black for a reason.

 

yang cultivation, consider it cultivating the top side of a sine wave, yin cultivation, the bottom side,

 

when both are in balance, the highest amplitude potential is possible.

 

yang more than you yin, you dont absorb it all properly, and if the imbalance is great enough, burn yourself in whatever myriad fashion;

 

yin more than you yang, and you could push yourself easily for more "gains", and if the imbalance is great enough, lose a measure of the yang you have cultivated and it affects the body, tough to sit for long periods of time, tough to do lotus, and yin cultivation is not yang enough for good proper mixture of ingredient, you will never gain significant amplitude potential.

 

somewhat vague and generalized on purpose there

[dawei]

Another difference, Qigong Master Chunyi Lin teaches that in order to activate (or create, I'm not sure) the LDT, you should focus on it at all times. I think effilang said something like this, ~"Step 1: Focus on LDT. Step 2: When you lose focus on the LDT, focus back on the LDT."

 

But yeah I guess Wu Liu Pai Neidan wants nothing to do with that.

 

I can't speak to WLP...

 

School differences will always exists, but there must be some individual goal in mind, or specific path or practice. Any one can experience Qi or energy exchange without the LDT activated... but that is the foundational step in most practices so that the body has sufficient Qi to move on to higher level practices. It might be similar to saying, otherwise, your car is running on fumes.

 

What you should understand is 'why the focus' seems to help (or work). It is no one thing... Let's just say, as Ecclesiastes did: 'a cord of three strands is not easily broken'. IT seems an ancient formula, when in doubt, keep the mind on the LDT... in some of the earliest practices, 'deity visualization in the LDT' was performed.

 

My advice is someone should chart out what they want to do, where they want to go with it and find the practices which fit it... and review/revise as you go. In general, the more you try to self-teach the further you can veer off a proper/successful path.

 

I would recommend Yang Jwing-Ming... easy to find cheap, used books at Amazon:

Amazon Link

 

The two I would start with are:

1. Qigong for Health & Martial Arts: Exercises and Meditation (Qigong, Health and Healing)

2. The Root of Chinese Qigong: Secrets of Health, Longevity, & Enlightenment

 

 

 

The one connection that I'm still seeing between the two it, Master Lin is ALL about focusing on the Emptiness, the Divine from which all things came. Which is of course, very pre-heaven/primordial.

 

I think this gets beyond simple descriptions because the focus (whether LDT or emptiness) is all local at first... it is only occurring in your mind, however successful in getting you where you want.

 

Interesting you mention Emptiness and Divine; so what is one focusing on (rhetorical)

 

In simple terms: If your mind is in one place, it is not scattered or lead astray. One is trying to put their mind 'in its place'.

 

But the elusive Neidan again sidesteps this, because trying to approach the Emptiness by focusing on it is "approaching perfection", using the post heaven faculties/qi instead of Neidan's "reverse perfection". I think that's it anyway.

 

Neidan's "reverse perfection": Do you mean because the order is: Jing > Qi > Shen > Emptiness ?

[Ish]

Would you say that there is a specific moment when the immortal medicine reveals itself? Like a switch? A spark? Or, more a gradual unfolding, where a little more is revealed, steadily, day by day, week by week.... And you wake up one day with an "A-ha!"?

 

For sure i feel it to be the second one. Rather than an instant enlightenment that some may proclaim, as you say a gradual progression, with many a-ha's along the way!

[Ilkka]

Is it the Book That Shall Not Be Named?

Yes

Not really no.

 

What is the item or topic(s) you read which are not mentioned yet in this thread?

The book that I read is called "Nei Kung The Secret Teachings of the Warrior Sages - Danaos, Kosta". I finished it already, haven't got a chance to read the first one though.

 

If you want to know more about this "pseudoscience" stuff I can give you a link to this other forum, which has more knowledge and knowing people in it than I. For the term pseudoscience I use because no scientist would never accept Chi or Shen into common science.

[dawei]

The book that I read is called "Nei Kung The Secret Teachings of the Warrior Sages - Danaos, Kosta". I finished it already, haven't got a chance to read the first one though.

 

The teaching/practices of Mo Pai by John Chang have been much discussed, so there is a lot of history to that here... much of the discussion devolved into the Pit...

 

It is Indonesian method which traces to China... neigong with 72 levels.

 

If you want to know more about this "pseudoscience" stuff I can give you a link to this other forum, which has more knowledge and knowing people in it than I. For the term pseudoscience I use because no scientist would never accept Chi or Shen into common science.

 

No reason to apply negative labels to it. Any alchemy or Neigong (or Qigong) does not claim to be scientific and it would be silly to try to force a mutual understanding at this point but some attempts have been made and continue... as they should.

 

If you have another site to learn more or discuss it, it is probably better to do so there than here. Some of the Indonesian students have respectfully asked that their lineage not be discussed here as their is no proper representation. I tend to agree on a certain level but this is a discussion forum and as of yet we do not prohibit it, should the discussion arise.

[Andrei]

This guy is amazing, he shows abilities similar to John Chang (except maybe putting on fire a newspaper). He just uploaded on facebook a video, which unfortunately I cannot link here, but if you search his page on facebook you'll find it. I like his explanation on what neidan is. The traditional Neidan schools claim that one sign of Pre-Heaven Jing-Qi-Shen replenishing is when the hair grows dark and the teeth grow back, which in my opinion is possible if you really start producing again melatonin and growth hormone and whatever hormones define a youthfull body. Anyway I am kind of dissapointed since even this guy shows some gray hair even after this dedicated cultivation... I am still searching for the fountain of youth. And I agree with Joeblast, the light at the niwan should be a sign that the melatonin and DMT are produced in the pineal gland. But I still think it is much more complicated than that.

 

ACHE Research Dr. Leung YK Phd aka Shidelon

4 hrs ·

HongKong University 1.12.2014 (pt.1)

For faculties of Western Medicine; TCM; psychiatry & Social science

Topic: Daoist Medicine & Insomnia

There are two therapeutic approaches to the case study of

Insomnia. Firstly, the Daoist Medicine practitioners can induce his/her energy, (which has been recorded by the BeiJing Institute of Science as either electro-magnetic field or low frequency infra-red energy waves) directly into the third party via energy points the natural interactions between the two human bodies will trigger the unusual spontaneous reactions. Secondly, patients have to be taught with proper Daoist GongFa methodology to trigger the same spontaneous reactions for the self-healing abilities of human psychological & physiological problems. Today, the particular Internal medicine NeiDan can be identified as the inborn hormone of melatonin the problem is how can a person induce such hormone at will?...

During the seminar, faculty of TCM, HongKong University, has sent some patients who are suffering with Insomnia. Patients brain waves appeared to have been changed from consciousness to sub-consciousness In sleep pattern term, EEG machine should register both beta & alpha brain wave frequencies the visual data recorded when external energy WeiQi was being induced via the KeGu energy point directly into the patients (mechanical); some forms of (electrical) signal must have been activated to shut down the brain in a few seconds finally, there must be the release of melatonin (bio-chemical) that change the brain waves into alpha light sleep pattern mode whereupon major self-healing property has been registered

From Daoist Medicine & TCM, imbalance of the kidney YinQi is responsible for sleepless problem. Since, both Yin/Yang Qi of the kidneys must be balanced in order to regain equilibrium. Therefore, Doaist GongFa methodologies that manipulate the [Lungs] & [spleen] Qi energy level have to be used as training exercises to be continued Dr. YK Leung PhD. (aka Shi DeLon)

Edited December 23, 2014 by Andrei

[Jox]

This guy is amazing, he shows abilities similar to John Chang (except maybe putting on fire a newspaper). He just uploaded on facebook a video, which unfortunately I cannot link here, but if you search his page on facebook you'll find it.

 

Under what name should we search on FB, to be able to watch a video?

[Andrei]

ACHE Research Dr. Leung YK Phd aka Shidelon

Or just YK Leung

[Yae]

elusive....ehwhat...the meaning of that second to last sentence....that was elusive

 

"The ways of Alchemy and Qigong have very many differences, but the most fundamental difference is that alchemy is the process of reverse perfection, while qigong – is a process of onward perfection. Perfecting the way of alchemy is collection of primordial pre-heaven jing, thereby fulfilling the lost post-heaven jing, restoring the destroyed body, adding oil (tianyu) and prolonging destiny (zeming). The primordial jing is collected for melting and transforming it into qi; using the primordial qi make melting qi and transforming it into shen, then moving farther and melting shen and returning to Emptiness; by melting Emptiness completing Tao. All this leads to the fact that the men who perfect themselves overcome the old age and return to youth, and realizing the reverse perfection become the All-wise. But qigong, by contrast, is unable to collect the primordial jing, and therefore there is no way of reverse perfection; it only possible that a man slightly decreases the loss (continually ongoing), slow decreasing of post-heaven jing, whereby regulating the physiology of their body, achieving the effect of escape from diseases and a small extension of life."

 

(^ reply to joeblast and dawei)

 

the emptiness IS the yin cultivation.

 

Alright... Then what is the opposite of the emptiness? I thought it was analogous to the Tao, the blending of both.

[Andrei]

One thing is for sure: if your body is decaying you're doing it wrong (Qigong). Too much Qigong leads to Qi sickness, it burns Jing and accelerates ageing. If you know what are you doing then you do Neidan, the inner medicine, you replenish the jing and revert to youth or at least stop ageing since the moment you are doing it right. There is no other way to know for sure.

[Andrei]

I don't know, all claims are speculations. To verify them you have to test them on yourself. There is nothing much to say, just to verify what the Neidan texts say. I mean the classic texts, not the pop qigong books.

[MooNiNite]

proper meditation for a little while each day is all one needs

[ChiDragon]

"Proper meditation?" What's that?

Zazen(打坐). That's all it takes for one to know....!!!

Edited December 23, 2014 by ChiDragon

[MooNiNite]

what about BodhiDharma one of the greatest masters on earth whose teachings clearly tell people to sit in meditation....

[MooNiNite]

"Proper meditation?" What's that?

 

well the indians actually have a famious list of 72 different types of meditations, i just practice awareness and letting the mind calm.

 

this video series is pretty good. it uses breath awareness meditation which is a little different

 

 

 

 

the kundalini chakra methods work too, it is like an indian neidan. if one can get the first 6 major chakras open they can do true meditation, but before that, normal meditation works too. This really isnt a black and white thing. meditation will take one there, but also so will methods, but eventually meditation is the best method. but that isnt exactly true because people can do external meditations through art and music, dont be close minded and think neidan/alchemy practice is the only way to immortality. ok im ranting....

Edited December 24, 2014 by MooNiNite

[MooNiNite]

Here are some spirit immortals whose neidan is simply making rock music.. these guys are 40 years old. .. there are many paths, but truth and getting to know oneself is what i recommend.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVFYjcKrPNc

Edited December 24, 2014 by MooNiNite

[Yae]

I don't know where I read it recently, but I think I read that sitting facing the wall for 9 years is a very late-stage Nei Dan practice. But, extended seated practices aren't used until very advanced stages.

[Ilkka]

well the indians actually have a famious list of 72 different types of meditations, i just practice awareness and letting the mind calm.

 

this video series is pretty good. it uses breath awareness meditation which is a little different

 

This is exactly the same video that I first learned how to meditate, but it got lost and got found once and then lost again. Maybe this time it will stay on my list on youtube

[ChiDragon]

This is exactly the same video that I first learned how to meditate,.............

 

Are you breathless now.....???