Neidan vs Qigong

[dawei]

my point was that people ought not to treat it as if it is more special than any other type of practice.

doing that would ruin the whole wonderful point that all things are connected by the way.

 

anyway, i would also posit that one should never marry themselves completely to one aspect of daoism.

imagine getting a really great sandwhich but only eating one side of it because it is the side you chose first.

 

anyone who is interested in daoism owes it to themselves to research all areas of the practice.

lets say I practice mostly Quanzhen techniques, but I also take a great deal of information from dao de jing chanwei and luyutang, which existed well before quanzhen even began. we shouldn't close ourselves to the possibility of excellent things, just because our teacher told us not to look at them

 

Excellent point and one I agree with. In the end, each will speak from their interest, depth of research, and direct experience... the less the range the less they can intelligently really speak to a wide variety of topics and will tend to just repeat the same idea in different threads.

 

But we have to remember that each person's path is their own path and their journey is simply what it is... whether broad, informed, diversified or less so.

 

Although the title is somewhat of a broad comparison, the OP was speaking from a specific school. It would of been better to remind folks that this was really more about a school/lineage than a complete definition of comparisons.

[opendao]

can you please provide me with a textual reference in Chinese from a classic that differentiates post and pre heaven as being about qi channels and mind?

 

maybe I put it wrong, but the mind is not involved here at all: the difference is only in what channels are used. The nature of qi (wei qi, zhen qi, yuan qi etc) is also important.

 

My own understanding is that until you have accessed Zhenyi, your practice can't be considered as Xiantian.

That was given to me as an oral teaching, but perhaps I got it wrong, so I'm willing to consider other options.

 

it's because in quanzhen usually don't really work (or don't say they work) with any preheaven substances before the heart-xin is crystal clear. Then zhenyi is possible and xuanmen, as you described. In southern method it's possible to start using preheaven qi from day 1 without zhenyi and crystal clear heart-xin. So I summed it up and told that the real difference is not in zhenyi, but in the substances we work with. But the teaching you received is correct for Quanzhen.

 

houtian in a conscious level can be referred to as anything the mind does after it begins to formulate experience in the world.

So that means from the moment of birth, the body and mind will be in the houtian sphere of things.

Xiantian means anything that happens before birth, so at conception, and when the child is developing in the womb will be xiantian.

 

In that case, if we practice to develop the embryonic state in meditation, we are working on returning to the xiantian state from the hou tian state,

but when we direct the mind toward the xiantian, it does not mean that we have achieved it yet.

That is why I say that beginner level practice is not entirely xiantian, even if we are practicing dan dao.

 

I understand where it comes from, and if it works for you, then it's enough for the practice. But to get the full meaning of xiantian, we need to think not just about human body, but about the processes in the universe. Every moment the transition between xiantian and houtian is happening. Same in the body. And a child before birth also has postheaven qi. Maybe think about buddhist "form - no form" concept to understand what I mean.

 

There are also other methods to affect / conenct to xiantian except using the mind the way you described.

 

I'm not talking about qigong here, which is something that i don't frequently practice.

Qigong is an entirely post heaven practice and is determined as such because it is predicated on movement.

 

you see, in your classification it is impossible to distinguish qigong and initial neidan methods, as practised even in some Quanzhen schools and southern schools like Wu-Liu. For you they both are postheaven, because of the mind and movements. But as I see it, the main difference is what movements do, what energies they affect, in which direction etc.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I've also been taught the southern school (note the earlier mention I made to Chanwei and lu yu tang),

and I know about the early theory of dan existing everywhere.

You'll be able to see some reference to that in a book I'm releasing next year with Tamboli.

 

Anyway, if we start with the assumption that the body is all dan and the universe is also all dan, and that the place from which to start is xiantian, if that is ok for your practice, than good.

Where i was going with that idea initially was that when we do any practice that starts with the mind being put somewhere (in the qi xue for instance), then simply by the fact that we have put our intention there, it is a non xiantian occurance.

 

In the big picture of Daoism is doesn't matter that much if you follow Southern, Northern, Middle or even later ideas like xian xue, because the basic concept for the whole thing is taken from the laozi.

 

I''m going to get textual here for a minute:

 

是以聖人後其身而身先；外其身而身存。

 

that is why the sage observes beyond his body and before his body,

outside his body and in his body's existence (trans me),

 

so we can say that even laozi was talking about the relationship between xian and hou tian in the early chapters of ddj.

 

now lets take it another step further and consider that he seems to be saying that we have to be aware of the time after our body's exist (after we die), and the time before our body's existence, basically being the same thing. The area around our body (da zhoutian/universe) and our body itself (xiao zhoutian).

 

If we go from that concept (assuming that the xiao zhoutian is the human body/mind/shen/hun/po/zhi etc... and the universe is dazhoutian), then we can infer that the goal of someone who is very skillful is to merge his body with the universe.

Note that he doesn't say "baixing yi blablabla" or "intermediate student blablabla." He's referring to a really high level of practice.

 

So lets say that a couple really early strains for thought in Southern Daoism were that you could treat the whole body like one dantian, and the you really only need to focus on the lower dantian to achieve this - that is a very legitimate form of practice and I work with that along side working with Quanzhen methods, which are, as you say, a little bit more mechanical at the start, but lets not get dan dao practice in quanzhen confused with qi gong, fasting, martial arts, or whatever, because Quanzhen also works with pure neidan methods too.

 

I can understand why you want to make the connection between the Southern school and pure xiantian practice, but I don't see the textual evidence for it (unless I missed it).

 

I think saying that Zhengyi based methods are purer than Quanzhen methods is just such a pile of crap.

It is exactly the same as saying that Venus Williams is more of a pure tennis player than serena because she was born first (I actually don't know which one was born first hahahaha).

 

I just want to point out for the record that i don't belong to either Quanzhen or Zhengyi, and nor does my teacher.

I was taught both methods and use them both without any serious conflicts.

 

Anyhow,

if it works for southern people to say that their method is completely pre birth, I can accept that, but it doesn't stack up well against either Laozi or other xian/houtian ideas in Chinese philosophy.

 

I'd love it if you could provide me with a good Chinese classic that has that information, because that way I could read it over and if I'm wrong about this, and southern methods really do start with xiantian, then I will gladly take back everything I just said.

[allinone]

different terms are for that you would not need to speak the whole story over and over again. The terms therefore or locations are all concepts and you can't take them as "this is how it is done".

 

inner alchemy, you start from scratch starting out as nobody with no skills. If you reach somewhere you would still not know what the terms are and how far you are.

 

if you open the heart?(what is the heart really, no idea), you will know only through your own signs and if sign does not arise you can't make your move too.

Edited December 27, 2014 by allinone

[allinone]

and after i have done some progress, can go to impress others with dharma and then got beaten up, so i can feel shame of myself.

 

PS: i already know that my energy is on horns, that means i am arrogant at defeault for now.

Edited December 27, 2014 by allinone

[Yae]

the less the range the less they can intelligently really speak to a wide variety of topics and will tend to just repeat the same idea in different threads.

 

Lol this sounds like me. I don't think I work that way (speaking to a wide variety of topics in a detailed way), I just intuitively filter through things and look for words that come up as gold (complete approach that aims for the depths of truth like experientially returning to the state of Tao oneness), like (Qigong Master) Chunyi Lin's teachings. I'm just like who do I trust, what do they want me to do, ok let's do it.

 

I think he's really a true alchemist even if his teachings are focused more on healing. Considering he has a story of his heart stopping for 5 minutes, and he's meditated in a cave for multiple months and wants to for a year but is busy healing people, and people have seen his yang body working on his lawn at home when he was in China doing a cave meditation. Not arguing the truth of that, I've validated it enough for myself and don't care to try to convince people.

 

In the case that this is true, could he achieve these things using only post-heaven qi?

Edited January 11, 2015 by Bluemind

[Astral Monk]

Thanks for the replies to my query. This is indeed a fascinating topic. So much to learn.

 

From what I gather, a person who practices qigong might initially recognize some elements of neidan practice, but soon that practice would take them into other areas, and encompass a much larger scope. So contemplating how a qigong-esque practice might look the same as neidan but be internally entirely different is probably like debating the merits of a brass vs gold door knob on a 3000sq mansion.

 

8)

[LaoZiDao]

I've also been taught the southern school (note the earlier mention I made to Chanwei and lu yu tang),

and I know about the early theory of dan existing everywhere.

You'll be able to see some reference to that in a book I'm releasing next year with Tamboli.

 

Anyway, if we start with the assumption that the body is all dan and the universe is also all dan, and that the place from which to start is xiantian, if that is ok for your practice, than good.

Where i was going with that idea initially was that when we do any practice that starts with the mind being put somewhere (in the qi xue for instance), then simply by the fact that we have put our intention there, it is a non xiantian occurance.

 

In the big picture of Daoism is doesn't matter that much if you follow Southern, Northern, Middle or even later ideas like xian xue, because the basic concept for the whole thing is taken from the laozi.

 

I''m going to get textual here for a minute:

 

是以聖人後其身而身先；外其身而身存。

 

that is why the sage observes beyond his body and before his body,

outside his body and in his body's existence (trans me),

 

so we can say that even laozi was talking about the relationship between xian and hou tian in the early chapters of ddj.

 

now lets take it another step further and consider that he seems to be saying that we have to be aware of the time after our body's exist (after we die), and the time before our body's existence, basically being the same thing. The area around our body (da zhoutian/universe) and our body itself (xiao zhoutian).

 

If we go from that concept (assuming that the xiao zhoutian is the human body/mind/shen/hun/po/zhi etc... and the universe is dazhoutian), then we can infer that the goal of someone who is very skillful is to merge his body with the universe.

Note that he doesn't say "baixing yi blablabla" or "intermediate student blablabla." He's referring to a really high level of practice.

 

So lets say that a couple really early strains for thought in Southern Daoism were that you could treat the whole body like one dantian, and the you really only need to focus on the lower dantian to achieve this - that is a very legitimate form of practice and I work with that along side working with Quanzhen methods, which are, as you say, a little bit more mechanical at the start, but lets not get dan dao practice in quanzhen confused with qi gong, fasting, martial arts, or whatever, because Quanzhen also works with pure neidan methods too.

 

I can understand why you want to make the connection between the Southern school and pure xiantian practice, but I don't see the textual evidence for it (unless I missed it).

 

I think saying that Zhengyi based methods are purer than Quanzhen methods is just such a pile of crap.

It is exactly the same as saying that Venus Williams is more of a pure tennis player than serena because she was born first (I actually don't know which one was born first hahahaha).

 

I just want to point out for the record that i don't belong to either Quanzhen or Zhengyi, and nor does my teacher.

I was taught both methods and use them both without any serious conflicts.

 

Anyhow,

if it works for southern people to say that their method is completely pre birth, I can accept that, but it doesn't stack up well against either Laozi or other xian/houtian ideas in Chinese philosophy.

 

I'd love it if you could provide me with a good Chinese classic that has that information, because that way I could read it over and if I'm wrong about this, and southern methods really do start with xiantian, then I will gladly take back everything I just said.

 

There is a lot of good classics, maybe try later texts from Liuyiming

[Taoist Texts]

if it works for southern people to say that their method is completely pre birth,

but ...

southern people do not say that

northern entrepreneurs do

[opendao]

I've also been taught the southern school (note the earlier mention I made to Chanwei and lu yu tang),

and I know about the early theory of dan existing everywhere.

You'll be able to see some reference to that in a book I'm releasing next year with Tamboli.

 

Anyway, if we start with the assumption that the body is all dan and the universe is also all dan, and that the place from which to start is xiantian, if that is ok for your practice, than good.

Where i was going with that idea initially was that when we do any practice that starts with the mind being put somewhere (in the qi xue for instance), then simply by the fact that we have put our intention there, it is a non xiantian occurance.

 

sure. More then that, if there is no xiantian qi in qi xue, then we can point our mind forever without any success. The true mechanism is different then just "pointing the mind".

 

In the big picture of Daoism is doesn't matter that much if you follow Southern, Northern, Middle or even later ideas like xian xue, because the basic concept for the whole thing is taken from the laozi.

 

I''m going to get textual here for a minute:

 

是以聖人後其身而身先；外其身而身存。

 

that is why the sage observes beyond his body and before his body,

outside his body and in his body's existence (trans me),

 

so we can say that even laozi was talking about the relationship between xian and hou tian in the early chapters of ddj.

 

now lets take it another step further and consider that he seems to be saying that we have to be aware of the time after our body's exist (after we die), and the time before our body's existence, basically being the same thing. The area around our body (da zhoutian/universe) and our body itself (xiao zhoutian).

 

it's interesting, I will try to reply later on that.

 

If we go from that concept (assuming that the xiao zhoutian is the human body/mind/shen/hun/po/zhi etc... and the universe is dazhoutian), then we can infer that the goal of someone who is very skillful is to merge his body with the universe.

Note that he doesn't say "baixing yi blablabla" or "intermediate student blablabla." He's referring to a really high level of practice.

 

So lets say that a couple really early strains for thought in Southern Daoism were that you could treat the whole body like one dantian, and the you really only need to focus on the lower dantian to achieve this - that is a very legitimate form of practice and I work with that along side working with Quanzhen methods, which are, as you say, a little bit more mechanical at the start, but lets not get dan dao practice in quanzhen confused with qi gong, fasting, martial arts, or whatever, because Quanzhen also works with pure neidan methods too.

 

I can understand why you want to make the connection between the Southern school and pure xiantian practice, but I don't see the textual evidence for it (unless I missed it).

 

I think saying that Zhengyi based methods are purer than Quanzhen methods is just such a pile of crap.

 

Right. And I haven't told that as far as I see. Especially knowing the fact I learn and teach Yuxianpai, which is Quanzhen Dao :-)

 

It is exactly the same as saying that Venus Williams is more of a pure tennis player than serena because she was born first (I actually don't know which one was born first hahahaha).

 

I just want to point out for the record that i don't belong to either Quanzhen or Zhengyi, and nor does my teacher.

I was taught both methods and use them both without any serious conflicts.

 

Anyhow,

if it works for southern people to say that their method is completely pre birth, I can accept that, but it doesn't stack up well against either Laozi or other xian/houtian ideas in Chinese philosophy.

 

I think some clarification is needed:

 

1. Nanzong southern school by Zhang Boduan, not Zhenyi.

 

2. The method in Quanzhen and Nanzong is the same. Same as Zhong-Liu and Wang Chongyang legacy. The difference is only in some details about how to teach, explanations and exact exercises.

 

3. The method of Neidan works with xiantian san bao, that's why it is opposite to qigong's methods. I've already wrote about subject vs object though. It's quite different from "their method is completely pre birth", right? At least for me it sounds way different.

 

4. You can start with Liu Yiming, but I really suggest to read something from Wu-Liu Pai's canon. The theme of xiantian vs houtian is central there.

 

I think we have a conclusion that qigong is not neidan Everything else is just a nice discussion. Thanks for it, pls write more, it's always a pleasure to read something wrote out of direct knowledge and experience, not "thoughts inspired by books", as it's popular here.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

thanks for the suggestions on classics,

 

I'll have a look.

 

my personal understanding (and what I was taught) about achieving good xiantian practice was that one of the key features stopping qi gong and other types of methods from achieving dan cultivation is that when a physical movement is manifested by the mind, the body will not be able to go into a neutral state. In that case, we won't be able to achieve wu wei, and thus go from wubuwei to xiantian and xuanqiao.

On the other hand (and I think this is quite important), Qi gong is a great additive to good neidan.

if we practice neidan but don't exercise our bodies, it will be difficult to obtain optimal health.

Qi gong, gongfu, a healthy diet, and all that good stuff, although being totally houtian, are a bloody grad addendum to meditation.

One of the reasons why I'm not very keen on decreeing neidan as better than qigong (which was never said here, but of course it was inferred), is because for most people, qi gong is a much more realistic practice.

neidan is quite rare, and because it is a very scholarly practice, it won't be useful to people unless they are very serious.

 

Anyway, I've already

言者不知

 

way too much,

so i'm out.

[Daeluin]

my personal understanding (and what I was taught) about achieving good xiantian practice was that one of the key features stopping qi gong and other types of methods from achieving dan cultivation is that when a physical movement is manifested by the mind, the body will not be able to go into a neutral state.

 

I've come across this belief before, and find myself questioning it. I would think it more difficult to go into a neutral state while moving, but not impossible.

 

I suppose I'll need to discover this for myself.

[Brian]

but ...

southern people do not say that

northern entrepreneurs do

Curious that China and the US have developed similar divides.

[Ya Mu]

I've come across this belief before, and find myself questioning it. I would think it more difficult to go into a neutral state while moving, but not impossible.

 

I suppose I'll need to discover this for myself.

Yes, not impossible. In fact, if one "moves with the qi" in harmony and has learned to still the mind, more than not impossible - indeed, very possible & enjoyable.

[Taoist Texts]

Curious that China and the US have developed similar divides.

The sound of Kaa-ching is The Great And Universal Divider.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Wohoo! Twenty five pages of reading later, i have pssed through excitement, concentration, discomfort, doubt, cofusion, disgust, detachment, refocusing and now, nowhere near the end of this (i hereby predict a 139 page discussion before someone accidentally writes what Neidan actually is and the internet implodes), i keep wondering what on earth or in heaven you people are talking about. The line is a dot to me, and yet this thread is captivating on so many levels!

 

But ah, now i know what the (para)phrase "those who do not know speak, and those who know wont say." truly means

 

So many questions to ask but non of them formulated right, no question has the possibility of even being correctly phrased for an answer to make sense, except maybe "can i join your club?" to wich the answer is of course "No."

Right now, Neidan has the appearance of highest degree Masonics or even the Bilderberg group.

 

However, this was fun, you have 114 pages to go, i'll be cheering you guys on and drinks are on me afterwards!

Edited December 31, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Rocky Lionmouth]

+1 to that because it's still nowhere near completion according to my ever so humble prophecy.

 

Also, in the wakes oft his thread a lot of new topics seem to have done a better service to those seeking information and answers, i think this one cleared some blockages so to speak.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[Wells]

.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[opendao]

Well, after reading this thread through completely for the first time (without doubt, I will reread is several times more),

the first question I would like to pose to you, opendao:

How do you explain the following claim from The Secret Of The Golden Flower (which is an authentic Neidan source text an an important part of the Wu Liu Pai canon):

 

Let's discuss this first, because it's not totally correct. Such opinion came from the fact that Richard Wilhelm has translated (in 1928?) a book published in China. In that book, for some reasons, 2 treatises were combined: Huiminjing by Liu Hua Yang (from WLP) and Golden Flower. That's how the book mistakenly became "a part of Wu-Liu Pai canon".

 

I would like to know, how you explain this in hindsight of the fact that the Wu Liu Pai school

emphasizes that Ming has to be replenished specifically through Ming Gong training

and that Xing Gong practiced without accompanying or preceding Ming Gong

diminishes Ming.

 

Same names can point to different practices in different schools. So it's not very correct to compare, for example, Longmen's xinggong and Wu-Liu Pai's xinggong. Moreover, ming and xing have to be balanced in all practices until they are unite... So even though the principle is the same, classic books are hard to compare. I hope later this year some articles will be published about the differences between methods/schools so it will be not so confusing.

 

If we read the book careful then it's possible to understand what "light" is about and that it cannot be a by-product of xinggong alone....

 

P.S.: Don't get me wrong, I personally believe that the Wu Liu Pai school method works, creates Immortals to this day and is likely the only Neidan school available to Westerners which does so. Therefore the Wu Liu Pai school is possibly the first Neidan school in history to create in fact "Westerner Immortals". But what I ask myself (and believe at the moment) is if the Wu Liu Pai school method is not possibly unnecessary complicated through mixing The Secret Of The Golden Flower method with other methods instead of simply following The Secret Of The Golden Flower method exclusively.

 

to make your life harder I can say that WLP has collected various methods of various schools. Some resemble Golden Flower, others - not. But all of them work and share the same principles (described in Golden Flower as well to a certain extent). I understand your wish to find something simple that works, but believe me, real neidan is VERY complex.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[MooNiNite]

is the golden flower like the blooming on top of the head?

[opendao]

To make this absolutely clear:

 

The Secret of The Golden Flower is NOT a part of the Wu Liu Pai school's canon.

The Huiminjing is a part of the Wu Liu Pai school's canon.

 

yes

 

The Secret Of The Golden Flower is a part of the Quanzhen school's canon.

 

only for some local schools. Try to find Esposito's materials, she made some researches about Golden Flower, its versions, role in different schools etc.

 

The Huiminjing is a part of the Quanzhen school's canon.

 

no

 

Do you mean that in your interpretation the "light" is a mix of Xing (yuan shen) with Ming (yuan chi)?

 

no, I don't think so: 是先天太乙之真气

 

And in previous steps, Ming has to be replenished and then combined with Xing?

 

yes.

 

Has Xing also to be replenished in the Wu Liu Pai system?

 

there is nothing really to replenish in Xing...

"Vitality and energy degenerate along with the universe, but the original spirit is still there; this is the infinite."

 

In conclusion: From your point of view, the statements in the text of The Secret Of The Golden Flower, that the method discussed works only with "essence" (= yuanshen, Xing) but nevertheless results into the state that "vitality-water will be sufficient" can not be true?

Because the premise, that it only works with "essence" is wrong?

 

The phrase about "Xing only" is just to underline that it's a true method to attain Dao, not a "side gate". You can see it by the context.

 

In the text you can see a lot of hints about vitality, qi etc, so obviously that work is not just with Xing.

 

In my opinion, the book emphasises the balance between Xing and Ming, by using the same practice on different levels, which changes internally, but still has the same meaning of 回光.

 

The method in the book relies (or emphasises) more on Xing but Ming has to be returned anyway. So the principle is the same as in Wu-Liu Pai books, the accents are different. WLP approach is better for clarity, Golden Flower's explanations may work for people of the "high virtue" who can get the meaning more by their intuition.

 

Also we need to mention that Golden Flower doesn't have such term as Ming Gong. It even uses different terms to speak about Xing and Ming duality.

 

Are some of these source texts available in english?

 

Huimingjing only, but the translations are poor.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[opendao]

??? Translation: "Tai 's innate infuriating"

 

very close :-) Just search www.thesecretofthegoldenflower.com for that text.

 

So the Wu-Liu Pai method "simply" replenishes Ming and then merges it with the Xing you already have to form the "holy embryo"?

 

yes. And this is the only method :-)

 

Btw, how is Qian supposed to exist already before Xing merging with Ming (vitality),

if Xing is "yin shen" (and can't therefore be Qian) before merging with vitality-water?

 

right. Then maybe something else is merging, not Xing and Ming?

 

So, the text seems not coherent with your explanation that the Neidan method in that text is equivalent with the Wu-Liu Pai method but just badly explained.

 

I didn't tell that. Different explanations for different purposes, but the principle is the same.

 

The main duality addressed in Golden Flower is that of yuan shen and shi shen, which have to be merged so just yuan shen in its "pre-incarnated state" (Ling) remains. Merging with (or absorbing) vitality is dealed with later.

 

Why do you think it's a main duality in the text?

 

Because yuan shen merging with shi shen is what "replenishes" yuan shen.

 

Why?