Neidan vs Qigong

[opendao]

The only evidence I need to prove that pure Xing Gong is enough to create not only immortals, but even Celestial Immortals,

is the statement of Namkai Norbu, given personally to a friend of mine,

that the Dzogchen exercises Trekchö, Thodgal and Yang-Ti, which are pure Xing Gong,

work to achieve Rainbow Body without having done preliminary exercises as tantric exercises like Tummo, which is Ming Gong.

 

did Namkai Norbu achieve Rainbow Body? maybe Tummo results? maybe at least renxian level? He is a public figure, he has a lot of students, his achievements are well known...

 

Xing is what creates Celestial Immortals if cultivated enough, not Ming.

 

yes, but BEFORE THAT there are other levels where xing doesn't help. You're trying to jump from ordinary state to celestial immortality by ignoring everything in between.

 

Ming Gong is useful to create Earth Immortals (personality surviving in an immortal physical body) and Spirit Immortals (personality surviving in an immortal energy body).

 

You speak about ming gong, but you don't know it... Spirit Immortality has no relation to ming gong, ming gong has to be done before that.

 

But only Xing Gong has the power to transform your whole being including your physical body into light and achieving the highest level of enlightenment and immortality, as the results of Dzogchen systems to this day prove.

 

Case closed!

 

amen. I have no wish to clean such a new-age mess in somebody's head.

 

P.S.: I read your downgrading comments concerning a video of tibetan monks which were practicing Thodgal and that they look "yin" to you. Well, I guess there is still lots to learn for you, as these are the guys ultimately realizing Celestial Immortality (Rainbow Body)!

 

any proofs? details? or just rumors?

[idquest]

I remember when CD's emerged to replace vinyl discs and how everybody got excited about them. And I remember very well how deeply I was disappointed when I first heard CD-quality sound. It was entirely lacking the richness of the analog vinyl disks with all the harmonics and subharmonics and sub-sub...

 

It is obvious for me that our goal has to be to fuse\integrate everything we have in our bodies because otherwise we'll get CD mechanical replica like a basic avatar picture. I don't intentionally study ancient text as I regard this as dangerous enterprise for obvious reason. Just use your common sense. Get full integrity.

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[opendao]

On the contrary, I studied very intensely and openly the source text of The Secret Of The Golden Flower and through that came to the conclusions which the text simply states very clearly.

 

no, you didn't explore the Chinese text at least. And you haven't met a teacher from the lineage where the text is canonical and used to achieve practical result. So it's too early to be so proud of yourself.

 

You instead believe blindly the dogma of your school and try to twist and misinterpret on purpose all texts which are counter-evidence against this dogma.

 

man, before writing something on forums, I kept silence for a long time, and checked practically everything I could, not only through texts. My teacher did that as well. His teacher. And so on. This is the only way to get rid of doubts. After that people see in texts a bit more then unaware readers of bad English translations made by people who has never practised anything. So I know my dogma works, but what you write - doesn't.

 

You are absolutely right. It describes aspects of shen, which will be important below.

 

But your statement, that Hun & Po are describing aspects of shen yet you deny that they are describing yuan shen & shi shen, is already enough to disprove this argument of yours by yourself! Thank you!

 

damn, do you see the difference between "describing" and "is"? Po has relations to shishen, but Po IS NOT shishen, as you claimed before. Shishen is a FUNCTION of Po. It's a small "twist" as you name it, but it breaks the picture and make you think that GF "contradicts" to the "dogma".

 

If there is spoken about "Water and Fire" in Alchemy, then there are addressed organ vitalities. But Fire (as all chinese words) is used in Alchemy also for processes, which have nothing to do with the organ vitality of the heart (Fire).

This ambiguity of chinese language is without a doubt known to you, but as I will show below, you ignore it consciously when it helps you to twist words to wrongly be able to enforce your agenda.

 

I think anybody who has finished elementary school can distinguish parts of the text where Fire is used in different contexts.

So instead of looking for my "twists", you can better read something about Water/Fire pair, houhou, fire of the heart etc.

 

Wow, did you have to close both eyes before the very clear evidence I compiled in my last post to be able to come to this conclusion?

That was a big mistake and proves how eagerly you are willing to twist words and clear evidence to enforce your agenda.

 

yuan shen = Hun

shi shen = Po

heavenly heart (seat of Hun) = sacret square inch (seat of yuan shen)

 

All the evidence from the source text to prove these equations without any doubt are quoted in my last post above!

 

read above

 

Ridicolus that you try to ignore these equations in hindsight that is is said in the quotes explicitly, that they are one and the same! You just need to read with an open mind, which is not diluded through a fanatical belief into the dogma of a school!

 

:-) see below

 

The evidence is here and you ignoring it is explicit proof that you are ignoring all evidence which does not help your agenda.

 

:-) see below

 

You are not here in this forum to help people to understand, you are in this forum as an enforcer of a dogma.

 

:-) See below your real level of knowledge.

 

 

As I already said above and as you very well know, the chinese characters are used in different contexts for different meanings.

And for that reason, you wont be able to talk your way out of the fact that you are trying dirty tricks now to enforce your agenda!

 

Let's see how "essence" / "jing" is used in the context of the text of The Secret Of The Golden Flower in other text passages, especially in the initial first phrases, which define the understanding of the chinese words for the rest of the text:

Master Lu Tsu said, the state of the Self is called Tao. The Tao has no name or form; it is just the essence, just the original spirit.

ch 1, par 1

 

Essence is here equated with Tao and it is equated with the original spirit.

Tell me, is the vitality "Jing" the same like the original spirit?

Is vitality "Jing" the same as Tao?

No, but Tao is the same as original spirit.

So what is the meaning of essence / jing in this context?

 

are you serious? There is no word Jing in that phrase!

 

祖师曰：自然曰道，道无名相，一性而已，一元神而已。

 

I think we can nullify your "evidences" after that or you will insist you've "studied very intensely and openly the source text of The Secret Of The Golden Flower "?

 

But your words are not nice, so it will be your fate now. Join Innersoundqigong's club.

 

I am 100% sure you knew this with your great chinese translation skills,

and yet you tried to trick me.

 

You use your chinese translation skills as a weapon to enforce your belief and your agenda on people,

and I have no respect for that.

 

I have no respect either to people who don't check things they sell to public.

 

To address the term "zhen qi": As "zhen qi" can here be translated as "the very energy of creation", it obviously describes something else than the "true qi" / "zhen qi" of Qigong, which has to be mixed out of the Qis of the organs.

Another case of chinese characters used for different things in different contexts.

 

same crap as above

Edited February 7, 2015 by opendao

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[opendao]

Is he dead yet? Most Dzogchen practitioners who achieve rainbow body do that at death and leave only behind hair and nails, what you would know if you were more open to other systems instead of just ignoring them because they don't work anyway in your opinion!

 

there are sign before passing to heavens... Even if the appearance is not young, it's possible to see who is who.

 

Plenty!

https://m.facebook.com/notes/dzogchen-khenpo-choga-rinpoche/auspicious-news-my-teacher-lama-karma-attains-rainbow-body/10151794778007773/

 

So, does this master who achieved Rainbow Body look young to you and if he went through the stages of Earth Immortal, Spirit Immortal etc. by concentrating on Ming Gong?

Obviously not!

This alone prove that you can skip stages like Earth Immortal and the necessary Ming Gong training and directly work successful towards the highest goal of Celestial Immortality!

 

let's take a look:

 

"As you know from my recent message, my precious teacher Dzogchen Lama Karma Rinpoche passed away on the 11th of November, 2013. Yesterday I received extraordinary news from my Dharma friends in the holy Dzogchen area of Tibet that the sacred body of my kind teacher Lama Karma has obviously and dramatically shrunk in size. Lama Karma’s body was about 175cm (approx. 5’9”) tall, but two weeks after he passed away, his seated body has now shrunk to about 20cm (approx. 8”), which means his body, including his skeleton, shrank nearly 80%. According to Dzogchen tantra, this kind of miraculous display shows he has attained the Small Rainbow Body, which is a sign that he has attained the supreme accomplishment of Buddha in this very life. "

 

well, that's what you mean by Rainbow Body? Then no, it has no relation to Celestial Immortality in Daoism.

 

This description has more resemblance: "The first is the Great Rainbow Body, which means directly transforming the present body into a luminous Rainbow Body, just like Buddha Shakyamuni in India, Padmasambhava in Nepal, Shri Singha in India, Vimalamitra in China, Yeshe Tsogyal and Chetsun Senge Wangshuk in Tibet, and so on. Those who attain the Great Rainbow Body eternally retain their present life’s body appearance until all beings become Buddha."

 

But we see only legendary names, not names associated with the modern Buddhism / Dzogchen. So just rumors...

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[opendao]

Before you post any more of your absurd claims,

you first have to explain how this Dzogchen Master (and all others) can achieve Rainbow Body (Celestal Immortality),

if he obviously did skip "Earth Immortal" level as he looks very old!

 

We are waiting!

 

It's obviously for anyone he hasn't achieved any immortality. So there is nothing to explain to exalted adepts who speak about dogma and twists, but dodging as soon as they are pointed to obvious factual mistakes in their so called "interpretations".

 

What's about the first phrase? Epic fail?

Maybe you found proofs that trigram Qian is Dao?

Maybe you found proofs that trigram Qian is Taiyi?

Maybe you found proofs that Taiyi is "creative"? Btw, which Taiyi, there are many of them :-)))

 

About Po and shishen I see you're stubborn, so I don't even ask. Keep us informed how the process is going. Merging "yuanshen with shishen to return to ling". I'm very interested to know and destroy my "dogma". I got that by texts you can't prove it, but maybe some practical results will change the picture...

Edited February 7, 2015 by opendao

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[Brian]

I'd be curious as to the autopsy report on that 8" tall corpse...

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[opendao]

In my studies of neidan I have found that certain systematization is needed, and to put some concepts in the right (or near) place and to distinguish some ideas that seem mixed is compulsory.

 

In this particular, I think that here Opendao has shown some of the principles needed to understand neidan in general and Daoism in particular.

 

1º: Plurality of models, in Daoism there are several models working in different texts and for different purposes.

2º: Distinction between function and form. We can find it in many texts. Even in SGF we have these two classical components plus the basis of foundation:

 

 

So, an understanding of form and function is fundamental in every daoist study, especially in neidan. For instance, in the Lung Hu jing -Dragon-Tiger Classic- and in the Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji - Dialogues between Zhong Li Quan and Lu Dong Pin- this distinction is used constantly.

3º Inside yang is yin, and their different phases (tai yang, tai yin...) etc.

4º Distinction between initial yang-yin and ulterior combinations.

 

right, and it' just a beginning of the list. I've explained some mistakes ZOOM made just to show that Neidan is VERY complex. It is not something somebody can learn as a hobby, or quickly create an own system. It needs a lot of commitment, a lot of efforts and a lot of ATTENTION to details. Lack of that has lead to the waterdown process, that affected and Neidan, and Qigong. So today it's hard to find a working version of both.

[Brian]

Villager: She turned me into a newt!

Boromir: You don't look like a newt.

Villager: I got better.

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[Yae]

Hmm, I have read about a method where a practitioner births a yin spirit body outside his/her own body from the start (no spirit body is ever birthed from the head in this case) and somehow it can then be turned into a yang spirit body. But I also read that this method is very challenging and maybe dangerous.

 

I'll see if I can find which source it was from - _ -

Edited February 7, 2015 by Bluemind

[dawei]

 

yuan shen (original / pre-natal / pre-heaven spirit) = Hun (celestial higher self) = yang

shi shen (discriminating / post-natal / post-heaven spirit) = Po (earthly lower self) = yin

 

The terms Hun (celestial higher self) and yuan shen (original spirit)

are used as synonyms in The Secret Of The Golden Flower

as are po (earthly lower self) and shi shen (discriminating spirit).

 

I don't agree with this but I'll have to think about why later...

 

but part of it has to do with Hun / Po are Yang / Yin associations ; Yuan Shen is above such distinction...

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[MooNiNite]

Max Christensen interview (1:24:59) for those who became depressed after opendao's claims that Alchemy has to be extremely complicated and include many methods and that only his school holds the keys to successfuly achieving Immortality / Enlightenment!

 

http://www.bbsradio.com/sites/default/files/delivered_shows/show_upload/New_Realities_2014-04-08.mp3

 

i remember telling you this, back when you were also preaching complex methods

Edited February 7, 2015 by MooNiNite

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[Yae]

You live and learn.

Why don't you tell that to opendao?

 

opendao said this:

 

Xing + Ming = Dao, what can be more profound?

Yuanshen + Yuanqi = Dao, what can be more precise?

"Only Qi and Shen, that's it": Teachers of the past wrote about it a lot.

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM