Neidan vs Qigong

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[LaoZiDao]

 

I understand! So a personal issue because I disproved your buddy Cozma single-handedly!

Btw:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32561-the-teaching-of-quanzhen/?p=498703

 

You have obviously a Qigong teacher, not a Neidan teacher!

I didnt even see you saying this, I guess you added it in as an edit. What gave you the impression my teacher has anything to do with this?

 

And in reply to your questions about reading Chinese, I do read some Chinese and translate. All examples from Zhongludaoji were my own translations, but also with input from my teacher, its the only way.

 

Why would doing this make me a teacher?

 

I don't understand where you're coming from..or what's your point.

[ralis]

I didnt even see you saying this, I guess you added it in as an edit. What gave you the impression my teacher has anything to do with this?

 

And in reply to your questions about reading Chinese, I do read some Chinese and translate. All examples from Zhongludaoji were my own translations, but also with input from my teacher, its the only way.

 

Why would doing this make me a teacher?

 

I don't understand where you're coming from..or what's your point.

 

Some Chinese? No academic background, obviously. That leaves much room for error. The Chinese nor any other culture own the real nature of reality. The real teachings are in the public purview if one is paying attention. All phenomena are symbolic of what lies beneath.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ralis

[LaoZiDao]

your teacher is a Qigong teacher, not a Neidan teacher, which would disprove your claim.

 

And once again, where you get the idea that you know anything about my teacher?

 

I think you assume laoziacademy.com is Wangliping's website? I believe their website is laoziacademy.us

 

No relation between them.

 

 

[Wells]

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Edited February 8, 2015 by ZOOM

[JinlianPai]

 

Follow your heart if its true to you then follow that truth

[opendao]

And once again, where you get the idea that you know anything about my teacher?

 

I think you assume laoziacademy.com is Wangliping's website? I believe their website is laoziacademy.us

 

No relation between them.

 

Just one more little mistake, ZOOM thinks it's all right :-\ no excuses, but he edited his post. Kindergarten....

 

I think it points to the difference in Taiyi and Taizhe.

 

Taiyi - primal illumination (big bang); original light and fire... Pure Unity

 

pure unity is wuji, any creation is a destruction (or actualisation) of unity...

 

Taizhe - creates life

 

I've found nothing so far to prove that 太乙 creates anything and it's the main difference with 太一.

 

TO me, the latter is Yuan Shen, Yuan, Qi, Yuan Jing in motion... creating... but already split up.

 

yep, split up, not unity and not "creativity". Moreover it's a yin process (and 乙 points to yin, interesting), while Qian is yang... Nevermind, I think Taiyi in Golden Flower can be translated directly, without relying on any deities.

 

IMO, and this is probably unfair, I think Taizhe was meant to represent Taiyi (of historical lore) but it was misrepresented.

 

or vice versa... Btw, 太乙 is still Taiyi, not Taizhe...

[opendao]

Some Chinese? No academic background, obviously. That leaves much room for error. The Chinese nor any other culture own the real nature of reality. The real teachings are in the public purview if one is paying attention. All phenomena are symbolic of what lies beneath.

 

The speech is not about quality, but about "paying attention" to the source versions in Chinese. ZOOM didn't do that and made mistakes, so LaoziDao correctly mentioned that. Obviously people don't pay attention to details, so basically your sarcasm about quality has no point here. There are many translations made by scholars, and they show nothing but errors in understanding basic principles of Daoism. So the practice with a teacher is the must, knowledge of Wenyan and the explanations made by a teacher come second. Academic background is good to have, no questions here, but not necessary to learn and practice.

[ralis]

The speech is not about quality, but about "paying attention" to the source versions in Chinese. ZOOM didn't do that and made mistakes, so LaoziDao correctly mentioned that. Obviously people don't pay attention to details, so basically your sarcasm about quality has no point here. There are many translations made by scholars, and they show nothing but errors in understanding basic principles of Daoism. So the practice with a teacher is the must, knowledge of Wenyan and the explanations made by a teacher come second. Academic background is good to have, no questions here, but not necessary to learn and practice.

 

Actually my point was valid. To posit that Chinese is the only source material is a bogus argument. I don't read Chinese and probably never will. Further, most persons will never have a resource of a so called authentic Chinese Taoist teacher. Where does that leave the majority? The ideology of the exclusive group is ad nauseum.

 

Do you have exact instruction to offer here?

 

BTW, I am well known on this site for tearing down arguments that are based on irrational BS. Present clear instruction for all or leave the thread. Deferring to a teacher that is not present is not in keeping with this discussion.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ralis

[ralis]

At least in my view, Zoom's detailed posts are much appreciated.

[opendao]

Actually my point was valid. To posit that Chinese is the only source material is a bogus argument.

 

did you read my post? did I tell that it's the only source material needed for everyone? We teach people without necessity to learn Chinese, but any research of the texts cannot be done without a proper translation.

 

I don't read Chinese and probably never will. Further, most persons will never have a resource of a so called authentic Chinese Taoist teacher. Where does that leave the majority? The ideology of the exclusive group is ad nauseum.

 

so what do you suggest? Publish "everything" in plain English in spite of the will of the Daoist teachers (and break the possibility to learn anything new from them)? Visit every village and teach everybody for free? Maybe pay people to force them to learn qigong? So do it, show us an example. Where I can learn about your results? How many schools you've opened, how many students, how many books?

 

Do you have exact instruction to offer here?

 

I do. Look at my nickname and figure out that's everything is ready for the masses, but the "majority" is too lazy to open their eyes and do even minimal efforts.

 

BTW, I am well known on this site for tearing down arguments that are based on irrational BS. Present clear instruction for all or leave the thread. Deferring to a teacher that is not present is not in keeping with this discussion.

 

tone down, ok? I don't owe you anything, and the only reason I reply to your post is that it's very common, so maybe some people will find my words useful to plan their life.

Edited February 8, 2015 by opendao

[Cheshire Cat]

Qigong methods are well known: standing and sitting meditation, dynamic exercises, Dao Yin, various work with imagination. There are many books and video about it.

 

Neidan methods are kept in secret. It creates a false illusion that it's possible to use Qigong-like exercises to get the results, described in Neidan books.

 

If Neidan methods doesn't involve standing and sitting meditation, dynamic exercises, Dao Yin and various work with imagination, then it's legitimate to speak like that.

 

But I seriously doubt that the Neidan methods you're celebrating aren't about some special visualizations, bizarre body movements, focus on body spot while regulating the breath and such.

 

And if its' about taming the mind in the buddhist way, then it may involve almost everything as a mean to settle the mind... therefore, one could freely practice qigong and neidan.

 

We have two legs, two arms, a head, a couple of eyes and a nose: there aren't many ways to exercise our body and mind indeed.

What could be this special kind of exercises that neidan lineages discovered and it's so difficult to imagine?

Edited February 8, 2015 by DAO rain TAO

[LaoZiDao]

If Neidan methods doesn't involve standing and sitting meditation, dynamic exercises, Dao Yin and various work with imagination, then it's legitimate to speak like that.

 

There is more things to it than just an exercise. Timing, consistency, repeatability, etc etc.. there is many requirements.

 

We have two legs, two arms, a head, a couple of eyes and a nose: there aren't many ways to exercise our body and mind indeed.

What could be this special kind of exercises that neidan lineages discovered and it's so difficult to imagine?

 

 

I know what you mean, but even the same exercise looking the same from outside with maybe some minor differences can make a huge difference to the results. Same in Qigong, someone doing pole standing may get result of X, someone else doing another way of pole standing which looks the same, but has some additional things added (visualisations for example) may get results Y.

 

About the method I know and practice, I have learned that there are several exercises from other teachers / temples around China which look very similar to it, but is not real Neidan at all. Small differences and important details making a huge difference to the result.

 

 

But I seriously doubt that the Neidan methods you're celebrating aren't about some special visualizations, bizarre body movements, focus on body spot while regulating the breath and such.

 

Correct they are not the highlighted - they are popular false methods, and I would not call it "bizarre body movements".

 

You can find it out easy though, just takes some effort on your part to meet a teacher and see what its all about

[Taoist Texts]

Tao is tao, it is out of yinyang.

 

 

 

According to a famous statement, found in one of the appendixes to the Book of Changes (Yijing),

"one Yin and one Yang, this is the Dao."

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/taoism/yin_and_yang.html

Fabrizio Pregadio

[Yae]

 

 

Yin and Yang are of the Tao, not the other way around.

 

EDIT:

 

"It is out of yinyang" means it is out of separation when in the unified state of Tao.

 

Your statements aren't necessarily conflicting, but when yin and yang are merged they're not really yin and yang anymore.

 

My opinion.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Bluemind

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[dawei]

pure unity is wuji, any creation is a destruction (or actualisation) of unity...

 

I agree. And to me, TaiYi is prior... I was moving forward a little to describe the next step.

 

I've found nothing so far to prove that 太乙 creates anything and it's the main difference with 太一.

 

I misspoke. I meant that 太乙 is created Unity... what I think Laozi meant by Dao creates One... but I take 太一 as true unity.

 

yep, split up, not unity and not "creativity". Moreover it's a yin process (and 乙 points to yin, interesting), while Qian is yang... Nevermind, I think Taiyi in Golden Flower can be translated directly, without relying on any deities.

 

 

or vice versa... Btw, 太乙 is still Taiyi, not Taizhe...

 

yes... 太乙 is Taiyi (as in heavenly stem Yi)... applying wrong pronounciation...

 

but I think they were equating 太乙 as 太一 to appeal to the earlier notions of it.

[ralis]

did you read my post? did I tell that it's the only source material needed for everyone? We teach people without necessity to learn Chinese, but any research of the texts cannot be done without a proper translation.

 

 

so what do you suggest? Publish "everything" in plain English in spite of the will of the Daoist teachers (and break the possibility to learn anything new from them)? Visit every village and teach everybody for free? Maybe pay people to force them to learn qigong? So do it, show us an example. Where I can learn about your results? How many schools you've opened, how many students, how many books?

 

 

I do. Look at my nickname and figure out that's everything is ready for the masses, but the "majority" is too lazy to open their eyes and do even minimal efforts.

 

 

tone down, ok? I don't owe you anything, and the only reason I reply to your post is that it's very common, so maybe some people will find my words useful to plan their life.

 

I don't care what a few elitist teachers think. Their ideology dates back to when it was believed the earth was flat and their world view was anthropocentric and still is. Further, let persons that are interested decide what is best for them as opposed to stating generalizations/judgments that the majority is too lazy, which is only your narrow opinion. The era of secret teachings is past and all texts should be made available without limit.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ralis

[ralis]

Let's get back to Zoom's posting.

[ralis]

I think or at least in my limited experience, that when the third eye fully awakens, it happens in a top down manner. Therefor, every channel/the entire being, fully awakens.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ralis

[ralis]

The purpose and goal of the practice is not immortality, but transforming to Shen Xian, so it's possible to directly know the laws of the Universe and own way there.

 

The last part of your statement makes no sense, but my question is regarding "to directly know the laws of the universe". Will you elaborate on that? Perhaps you are positing that gravity can be controlled by such practices? How does the 'uncertainty principle" fit into your world view? Other dimensions? Relativity?

[ralis]

OP,

 

I read the first ten pages or so of this thread, and see no summary of practice methodology for Neidan. Further, your original post starts out with an adversarial position of you and your teacher/lineage vs. other schools, false assumptions, the sum of all ignorant persons whose fate does not position them to be in the true oneness of an exclusive school, somewhere in the middle of nowhere.

 

I forgot to add the exclusive ultra secret teachings, somewhere in the middle of nowhere.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ralis

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Aetherous]

There are obscure concepts out there, from Chinese medicine for instance, that ming also has some to do with the heart and head and ling, although it's kept between the kidney area. No clue if opendao's school goes into such ideas at all. There are a lot of differing views on "ming", as can be seen here.

[Yae]

The purpose and goal of the practice is not immortality, but transforming to Shen Xian, so it's possible to directly know the laws of the Universe and own way there.

 

xD That is so exciting. It's exactly what I've been looking for since middleschool. An answer to a simple "wait, wtf is going on?" Thanks for reposting it ralis, even next to a negative opinion.

 

ZOOM, what is the nature of your loyalty to Golden Flower, and the xing-only method? And what makes you think you can disprove the teachings of an ancient lineage that is willing to show you immortals in the flesh if you're willing to trust them enough to go see them?

 

ralis, the methodology is a secret. You already read that and just mentioned it yourself. the secrets your mentioned are the methods. From what's been explained so far as far as I know, neidan methods can appear to resemble things like qigong but are completely different. Timing is significant, constancy is significant, and apparently opening and closing the practices properly is significant.

 

And the reason why they're secret is because they work, and if someone doesn't have a "clean heart" and learns them it apparently could be dangerous for them and others. So you need a teacher to guide you on a personal level, because you are a unique flower with unique needs .