Neidan vs Qigong

[ralis]

Opendao,

 

Regarding your statement that Neidan is based on logic and critical thinking. If the practices are secret, therefor, any analysis is within the select group and not open for general discussion.

[ralis]

And the reason why they're secret is because they work, and if someone doesn't have a "clean heart" and learns them it apparently could be dangerous for them and others. So you need a teacher to guide you on a personal level, because you are a unique flower with unique needs .

 

"Clean heart"? You have got to be joking! By positing a universal moral code on the universe is a mistaken view. This is just more authoritarianism stemming from dark age beliefs. If you need another parent then go right ahead, but don't foist that ideology on others.

[ralis]

ZOOM, what is the nature of your loyalty to Golden Flower, and the xing-only method? And what makes you think you can disprove the teachings of an ancient lineage that is willing to show you immortals in the flesh if you're willing to trust them enough to go see them?

 

Where are the immortals? If they truly are and are supposedly indestructible, then what are they afraid of?

Edited February 8, 2015 by ralis

[Yae]

"Clean heart"? You have got to be joking! By positing a universal moral code on the universe is a mistaken view. This is just more authoritarianism stemming from dark age beliefs. If you need another parent then go right ahead, but don't foist that ideology on others.

 

Hm, what he said was "It's like giving a shotgun to a child". I think that makes pretty clear sense. But would you teach a mass murderer such things if you were in that position?

[JinlianPai]

In Mahayana tradition Lotus flower characterizes regeneration, perfection, youthful bloom and immortality.

 

http://www.shaolin.org.cn/templates/EN_T_newS_list/index.aspx?nodeid=297&page=ContentPage&contentid=10479

 

Apparently there was a golden lotus lineage of Lu Dong Bin the JinLian ZhenZhong https://books.google.com/books?id=9dmf_fczMXwC&pg=PA259&lpg=PA259&dq=golden+lotus++immortality&source=bl&ots=HXiEmy5fgJ&sig=n6b73YVGJG4TsLpZ7OeDc9-IFdk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AKjXVO7-C4G5ggTMy4HAAQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=golden%20lotus%20%20immortality&f=false

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=9dmf_fczMXwC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=golden+lotus+lineage&source=bl&ots=HXiEmy5gaM&sig=TXlqz7AQyP6BkmYqOzYicAVDCgQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=K6jXVMyGIcGcgwS4iYPYDw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=golden%20lotus%20lineage&f=false

 

 

According to the Records of the Orthodox Sect of the Golden Lotus ( 金蓮正宗記 Jinlian Zhengzong Ji ), the Doctrine of Complete Perfection

 

http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/The_Five_Northern_Patriarchs

 

 

The Complete Perfection Tradition called for the Oneness of the Three Teachings from the very beginning, and had groups named after the Three Teachings, such as the Three Teachings Golden Lotus Society, the Three Teachings Jade Florence Society, the Three Teachings Equality Society, etc.. Such a concept was an important basis for accepting the Bodhisattva into Daoism. The Complete Perfection tradition was successful in this respect.

 

In short, the Guanyin cult originated in Buddhism and was absorbed by Daoism, and underwent changes during its spread among the common people. The Guanyin cult thus has a strong sense of folklore.

http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Guanyin_%28Avalokitesvara%29

 

 

the Golden Immortal of Grand Enlightenment, arhats into Reverends and Guanyin into Guanyin dashi, and they were all absorbed into Daoism.

http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Guanyin_%28Avalokitesvara%29

[Yae]

Where are the immortals? If they truly are and are supposedly indestructible, then what are they afraid of?

 

They're in China, and apparently they sometimes visit in Russia, where there's a lot of Wu Liu Pai and Yu Xian Pai schools.

 

Sorry it's in Russia. But for immortals maybe it's not a bad deal.

[JinlianPai]

The Golden Lotus tradition went from buddhist to taoist and became the secret of the golden flower.

 

But this came from the Guanyin Sect to Lu DongBin and he formed the JinLian ZhenZhong http://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Guanyin_%28Avalokitesvara%29

[opendao]

We have two legs, two arms, a head, a couple of eyes and a nose: there aren't many ways to exercise our body and mind indeed.

What could be this special kind of exercises that neidan lineages discovered and it's so difficult to imagine?

 

come to any teacher and learn. Or read more. All hints were given hundred of times by different people.

 

Yin and Yang are of the Tao, not the other way around.

 

EDIT:

 

"It is out of yinyang" means it is out of separation when in the unified state of Tao.

 

Your statements aren't necessarily conflicting, but when yin and yang are merged they're not really yin and yang anymore.

 

yes, there are a lot of sayings like that, some of them describe the source, some - the result, some - the way to the result. Taoist Text doesn't believe in daoist texts, so he has troubles :-\

 

I don't care what a few elitist teachers think. Their ideology dates back to when it was believed the earth was flat and their world view was anthropocentric and still is. Further, let persons that are interested decide what is best for them as opposed to stating generalizations/judgments that the majority is too lazy, which is only your narrow opinion. The era of secret teachings is past and all texts should be made available without limit.

 

up to you. Then don't complain you understand nothing. Teacher doesn't come to students, students come to a teacher. If you don't care about past, your knowledge won't have any roots. You show disrespect to the tradition, naturally you get nothing.

Edited February 8, 2015 by opendao

[ralis]

up to you. Then don't complain you understand nothing. Teacher doesn't come to students, students come to a teacher. If you don't care about

past, your knowledge won't have any roots. You show disrespect to the tradition, naturally you get nothing.

 

 

I understand more than you know. I have taken many teachings from various traditions and realized the limitations of verbal/textual arguments. Also, I have been on personal retreats in very isolated places for lengthy periods of time. Have you? I respect no tradition that takes an adversarial position. You have stated that position in no uncertain terms.

 

IMO you are treating others here as if they are lower than you. Your statement at the bottom of the page sums your position; "avoid false Neidan schools with no lineage and without complete methods of Xing and Ming."

 

You have not entertained my question regarding universal laws.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ralis

[opendao]

xD That is so exciting. It's exactly what I've been looking for since middleschool. An answer to a simple "wait, wtf is going on?" Thanks for reposting it ralis, even next to a negative opinion.

 

ZOOM, what is the nature of your loyalty to Golden Flower, and the xing-only method? And what makes you think you can disprove the teachings of an ancient lineage that is willing to show you immortals in the flesh if you're willing to trust them enough to go see them?

 

ralis, the methodology is a secret. You already read that and just mentioned it yourself. the secrets your mentioned are the methods. From what's been explained so far as far as I know, neidan methods can appear to resemble things like qigong but are completely different. Timing is significant, constancy is significant, and apparently opening and closing the practices properly is significant.

 

And the reason why they're secret is because they work, and if someone doesn't have a "clean heart" and learns them it apparently could be dangerous for them and others. So you need a teacher to guide you on a personal level, because you are a unique flower with unique needs .

 

well put, but you see, it has no sense: they will never get such simple things. The main secret is inside of them, but they accuse people outside in their inability....

[ralis]

Hm, what he said was "It's like giving a shotgun to a child". I think that makes pretty clear sense. But would you teach a mass murderer such things if you were in that position?

 

Nice try, but a false equivalence. The ideology of so called 'dangerous practices' is bogus and makes me suspicious.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[ralis]

well put, but you see, it has no sense: they will never get such simple things. The main secret is inside of them, but they accuse people outside in their inability....

 

If you have truly seen 'the light' I doubt you would be discussing lineage positions. If you have seen 'the light' I challenge you to state such an experience. I will in another post. BTW, I am not talking about some New Age woo woo, but the real deal.

[Yae]

Nice try, but a false equivalence. The ideology of so called 'dangerous practices' is bogus and makes me suspicious.

 

10 points to Gryffindor for assuming something is wrong because you don't understand it.

 

Immortal "Golden dragon body", "Rainbow body", or "yang spirit body", we're not dealing with kittens and daisies here, nor fleeting magnetic sensations like in tai chi. It's a powerful energy. ZOOM has written about his experience with an internal energy that shook him and the metal bench beneath him violently.

[opendao]

I understand more than you know. I have taken many teachings from various traditions and realized the limitations of verbal/textual arguments. Also, I have been on personal retreats in very isolated places for lengthy periods of time. Have you? I respect no tradition that takes an adversarial position. You have stated that position in no uncertain terms.

 

IMO you are treating others here as if they are lower than you. Your statement at the bottom of the page sums your position; "avoid false Neidan schools with no lineage and without complete methods of Xing and Ming."

 

You have not entertained my question regarding universal laws.

 

yep, you got everything right, Great Master Who Saw The Light :-\

 

You won't get any answers from me, same way as I finished any discussions with ZOOM or Innersoundqigong. You already know everything. To go in circles is not what I have time and wish to do. One time is more then enough, in my humblest opinion.

 

I think for the rest of us it would be better to return to the topic and stop reacting on all attempts to derail it.

[ralis]

10 points to Gryffindor for assuming something is wrong because you don't understand it.

 

Immortal "Golden dragon body", "Rainbow body", or "yang spirit body", we're not dealing with kittens and daisies here, nor fleeting magnetic sensations like in tai chi. It's a powerful energy. ZOOM has written about his experience with an internal energy that shook him and the metal bench beneath him violently.

 

I have had the so called highest teachings of Dzogchen, 'rainbow body and so forth. Stop your patronizing attitude claiming I don't understand it. Dangerous is a relative term in the context of any discussion. The practices are dangerous only to one's own sense of self.

[opendao]

There are obscure concepts out there, from Chinese medicine for instance, that ming also has some to do with the heart and head and ling, although it's kept between the kidney area.

 

could you please quote something about TCM view on Ming?

[ralis]

yep, you got everything right, Great Master Who Saw The Light :-\

 

You won't get any answers from me, same way as I finished any discussions with ZOOM or Innersoundqigong. You already know everything. To go in circles is not what I have time and wish to do. One time is more then enough, in my humblest opinion.

 

I think for the rest of us it would be better to return to the topic and stop reacting on all attempts to derail it.

 

You start a thread and expect not to be challenged as if you have all the answers. I have never claimed that I know it all. Have you gone to college and had your papers challenged by your peers? Same thing is happening here. Given your reticence to be straight with your peers here, it does make me suspicious as to what you claim to be. Opendao? You have yet to live up to that name.

 

You do do come across as some sort of teacher. Why not answer my questions.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ralis

[opendao]

that the taoist temples sects are deeply connected to the taoist astrology.

 

that's an important point, right

 

So my question to you is what does the golden dragon mean to your sect and have you heard anything else about the golden dragon outside of feng shui legend and max?

 

I haven't heard such term in Neidan context.

[opendao]

Hmm, I have read about a method where a practitioner births a yin spirit body outside his/her own body from the start (no spirit body is ever birthed from the head in this case) and somehow it can then be turned into a yang spirit body. But I also read that this method is very challenging and maybe dangerous.

 

I'll see if I can find which source it was from - _ -

 

it would be interesting to read

[ralis]

Opendao,

 

I am still waiting for answers to several questions from previous posts.

[opendao]

I remember when CD's emerged to replace vinyl discs and how everybody got excited about them. And I remember very well how deeply I was disappointed when I first heard CD-quality sound. It was entirely lacking the richness of the analog vinyl disks with all the harmonics and subharmonics and sub-sub...

 

It is obvious for me that our goal has to be to fuse\integrate everything we have in our bodies because otherwise we'll get CD mechanical replica like a basic avatar picture. I don't intentionally study ancient text as I regard this as dangerous enterprise for obvious reason. Just use your common sense. Get full integrity.

 

yes, it's obviously much better to get text explanations AFTER we get practical results. Then it sounds in full, all riddles become clear and it's a fantastic experience. But sometimes texts are all we have, and it's important to know how to "listen" to them. Same as CDs... Good analogy if I got it right :-)

[ralis]

What puzzles me regarding the OP, is the comparing and contrasting of Neidan vs Qigong which is not a real analysis given that Neidan teachings are secret.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Yae]

it would be interesting to read

I can't find it . In case it rings bells for anyone, the yinshen was initially birthed in the astral, and then somehow was filled with yuan___ to become the yangshen.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Bluemind