Neidan vs Qigong

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Aetherous]

could you please quote something about TCM view on Ming?

 

I can't, although at my school it's discussed in a fashion similar to "destiny" or "fate", and from what I understand it's taught as something distinct from yuan qi or jing. It was recently discussed during a lecture on the chong ren and du.

 

Tian gui isn't explicitly called ming, but I suspect it's the same thing...what do you think?

[Yae]

Well, even Liu Yiming can be wrong, obviously!

 

His comment on The Secret Of The Golden Flower has nothing to do with the book per se,

which was written as a practice manual for lay people to achieve Immortality without master and without school,

as Thomas Cleary explicitly states in his translation.

 

As it was written for laypeople, there certainly nothing missing at all.

 

The "alchemical firing process" is more than clearly described.

 

You should do your research instead of blindly and mindlessly believing into authority figures.

 

In case you are unable to think for yourself, let me do it for you:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/37552-the-superiority-of-the-secret-of-the-golden-flower-method/?p=607519

 

 

I don't get why you trust the word of Thomas Cleary over Liu Yiming?

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[ralis]

I am still waiting for one of you "guru-boys" to explain,

why you allegedly need a teacher live in class

when you have a great practice manual written by a teacher?

 

Let's think this through logically:

 

If you have a book elaboratly describing a process in all details,

reading it is exactly the same as getting the process described in person by a teacher!

More likely, reading a book written by a teacher is even better than listening to him in a class, as the teacher and author of the book had much time to plan and write his book as explicit, exact and detailed as possible!

Also, you can read it again and again!

Is there a difference in reading a description or hearing the exact same description verbally from a teacher?

NO! There is no difference at all.

 

If you are inable to understand a well described process from a book,

a teacher live standing before you in class will also be unable to explain it to you!

 

Hearing words out of the mouth of a teacher instead of reading the exact same words in a book

will not increase your intelligence or understanding magically,

and your belief in a teacher will not further your understanding either!

 

What I have seen in this thread are willing followers that don't question authority and have made untenable remarks regarding knowledge of immortals in China with visits to Russia and so forth. The guru cult fixation was exposed years ago in several well researched papers and well documented in academic texts. I have met Sufi masters, myriad Tulku's/Buddhist masters, third eye masters that offer the quickest path to God and many other frauds that come and go. This guru fixation is a transfer of power from the student to the master.

 

Several points are relevant in this thread; authoritarianism in the guise of a teaching that will never be revealed given the secret nature of such, in this case Neidan, several participants have ignored the most basic questions, several of my questions have been answered with questions with no answer to mine, positing untenable belief systems such as immortals in Russia with no offer of proof. The cult of secrecy is what raises red flags for me.

 

I have always asked myself; what do these so called teachers want with me, especially when they have so much power?

Edited February 9, 2015 by ralis

[LaoZiDao]

 

No problem,

reading my in-depth analysis of The Secret Of The Golden Flower so far will probably increase your understanding of the text profoundly:

http://thetaobums.com/forum/414-zoom/

OK I gave you some time of my day and read through your analysis. I didn't see any mention of methods, ie what to actually do. Only description of some processes etc.

 

There is no method described. How come you have so much faith in this translation of GF?

 

"This simple and straightforward method created Immortals since ancient times!"

 

Where is it? Simply just concentrate the thoughts on the heart?

Edited February 9, 2015 by LaoZiDao

[LaoZiDao]

 

What I have seen in this thread are willing followers that don't question authority and have made untenable remarks regarding knowledge of immortals in China with visits to Russia and so forth. The guru cult fixation was exposed years ago in several well researched papers and well documented in academic texts. I have met Sufi masters, myriad Tulku's/Buddhist masters, third eye masters that offer the quickest path to God and many other frauds that come and go. This guru fixation is a transfer of power from the student to the master.

 

Several points are relevant in this thread; authoritarianism in the guise of a teaching that will never be revealed given the secret nature of such, in this case Neidan, several participants have ignored the most basic questions, several of my questions have been answered with questions with no answer to mine, positing untenable belief systems such as immortals in Russia with no offer of proof. The cult of secrecy is what raises red flags for me.

 

I have always asked myself; what do these so called teachers want with me, especially when they have so much power?

 

It's been said they are not secret, just you need to do some work on your own part and see for yourself - get proof yourself.

Edited February 9, 2015 by LaoZiDao

[opendao]

I can't, although at my school it's discussed in a fashion similar to "destiny" or "fate", and from what I understand it's taught as something distinct from yuan qi or jing. It was recently discussed during a lecture on the chong ren and du.

 

Tian gui isn't explicitly called ming, but I suspect it's the same thing...what do you think?

 

no, it's related but not the same.

 

Do you know who did the Huangdineijing translation? There are phrases like: 歧伯曰：此其天壽過度，氣脈常通，而腎氣有餘也。此雖有子，男不過盡八八，女不過盡七七，而天地之精氣皆竭矣。In the translation we see pre-heaven and post-heaven, but in the source there is nothing about it, only 腎氣 and 天地之精氣... Anyway, xiantian 腎氣 is the key to Ming understanding.

[ralis]

It's been said they are not secret, just you need to get off your lazy ass and see for yourself - you can get proof yourself.

 

That is an ad hominem attack and is not tolerated on this site. If you don't change the above, I will report you.

 

FYI, I practiced outside in the sun today i.e, qigong and have continued without interruption an internal practice to this very minute.

 

If it is not secret, then where on this thread did I miss it?

Edited February 9, 2015 by ralis

[Daeluin]

The era of secret teachings is past and all texts should be made available without limit.

 

This concurs.

 

I've been mulling over this stuff a lot lately, and it is difficult to find an answer I feel good about.

 

Knowledge is an attachment. Over time it builds new layers, and not everyone will understand what it means unless the truth is kept alive by teachers. Science appears to be doing all right with keeping everyone on the same page, as there is so much energy focused on doing that.

 

When it comes to religious or historical knowledge, which describes what is not always easy to describe, things can become confused. There is less assurance as to what is right or wrong. The people with a loud voice and desire to disseminate their perspective of the truth are not necessarily those who see the clearest, and yet their version is likely to be exposed to more people and remembered better. We can see how histories do not always paint the fullest picture of what really happened. And with the Bible, etc, we can see how wars have been fought based on what people attached to in the teachings.

 

Perhaps we've come to a more even playing field now, and will be able to share deep secrets without allowing their perversion over time. Perhaps there will be so many versions and interpretations that the ones reaching the true depths will be hidden in plain sight, while the most prevalent versions merely reflect the average person's grasp. Perhaps some secrets will be sensationalized to the extent that their true messages are forgotten and people seek out and compete over what was sensationalized.

 

***********************************

 

But that concerns knowledge, which is not the same as methods. How does one even accurately describe a method with words? Sure one can stand like so and do this and that. But in my experience what is important comes from the teacher seeing you approaching a point where something needs to happen, and they guide you so that you don't miss the opportunity.

 

The teacher has selected their methods and has familiarity with how to use them as a tool for guiding their students. These methods may all do everything that neidan theory requires, but may focus on different aspects. We can see the golden flower method focuses on turning the light around, which keeps things simple, but ultimately does the same thing as schools that focus on holding horse stance to open the leg vessels and rebuild ming prior to doing meditative work.

 

Many of these methods are available everywhere in books. What is lacking is an achieved master who knows what is needed to use these tools to guide a student to their own self-mastery. This guidance may be audible, but primarily is probably energetic. When as student's energy has advanced to a new stage, it might be easier for the teacher to simply guide the energy slightly in the right direction, so that the student feels what the next stage feels like, than for the teacher to speak words that would draw the student into their mind.

 

For example, Wang Liping describes helping students to know when to adjust their qi so that it flows properly through their meridians at the right timings:

 

When the training started, what Mr. Wang Liping first paid attention was to transfer the student body’s vitality vigor, he said that Taoism cultivation takes the Xing Gong achievement as the ultimate goal but must take the Ming Gong as the foundation, if one does not have the Ming Gong foundational merit he could not reach high level in cultivation. Therefore initial several days he took the Ming training as the primary coverage, observed and controlled the changes of students’ bodies emphatically, after several times exercise, all students had the phenomenon of Qi (气) movement through meridians, although each student’s Qi movement is different from others, identically they had a common rule: Qi at first started from legs, the three meridians of foot started to generate, at this time the movement of Qi is in the leg, along with practice, the movement of Qi climbed to the abdomen gradually, at this time Wang Liping guided the students to make a little change of gesture, afterward obviously the Qi reached three yin meridians of hand by going up from the foot, then the movement of Qi was in the meridians of the upper body and arms, later to the yang meridians from yin meridians of hands, finally from the hand yang meridians rose to the head, then finally returned to the three yin meridians of foot. On each transfer point of meridian, Wang Liping would guide them to make a little change in gesture, in order to lead Qi to change route, which is very important. So how to grasp or seize the right time or opportunity is the key. When the Qi has not arrived at the switch point of transfer one cannot do something to lead Qi, only when the Qi reached the transfer point of meridian, at this time to doing something is effective. Wang Liping said,”some people do not know this, as they do not understand the principle of Qi movement of body, they could not grasp the transfer point to go forward, so their Qi always repeatedly move in the same meridians, the whole meridians of body could not be connected well to form a circle, thus they could not go further, always stay at the same stage in cultivation. So the ability of grasping the transfer point to do something or just waiting without action is the key in practice: when to do something or when to do nothing during practice? These depend on your understanding of the mechanism of body. If you have learned some knowledge of Chinese medicine, to master it will become easier for you, because Taoism’s’ theory is consistent with Chinese medicine theory, the two stems come from the same root.

 

So perhaps having some advanced knowledge regarding the meridians would help, but is not likely a path that all must take to reach the same level. Teachers perhaps can help eliminate the time it takes to find one's own way through trial and error, but even then if one is not ready for such training it is likely going to have many challenges.

 

Further, it strikes me that hidden schools are like rare exotic plants. If one uproots them and attempts to cultivate them everywhere, well, we know what will happen. In some places the plant will die. In some it will take over, killing off other plants and ultimately threatening balance. We can see how some spiritual schools publish large amounts of material and have also developed a high amount of criticism when the methods don't work, etc. Perhaps those people had different paths awaiting them, with different teachers. Who knows?

 

The plant isn't keeping itself secret at all... it's just rare. But anyone can find it. The same is true of schools - as one cultivates themselves closer to the tao, one will be naturally led to find a teacher that is right for them. I've experienced this many times... usually if I'm slacking in any way, the tao starts connecting me to different teachers. But at first it took a little time, and I had to listen to my heart, which drew me to live in a new city, where I immediately found my teacher. Anyone can do this, and be led where they need to be, if they just surrender a bit of their ego to flow with the tao. Where they need to be might not be a teacher, but something else. The heart will lead true, if one can get past the ego. It's the same with finding rare plants. If one is only looking for ginseng, they might be blind to everything else.

 

 

Opendao,

 

Regarding your statement that Neidan is based on logic and critical thinking. If the practices are secret, therefor, any analysis is within the select group and not open for general discussion.

 

 

In my experience, the first time I read the secret of the golden flower, I was confused. But after 3 years in training with a teacher who uses this method, I re-read it and suddenly it all made sense, based on my experiences. I even tried to point out the method used to someone here, but he laughed it off.

 

So I'd say, after one experiences what is described in Neidan, the theory can be discussed logically enough, but the methods one uses are likely to be different form school to school, and the techniques the master uses for guidance are also likely to be subtly different. So speaking of these things is only going to add confusion and expectation.

 

It is just too easy for people to want to jump in and try something, thinking it will lead to this or that. Perhaps they don't get anywhere and complain that it doesn't work or hurt them. Perhaps they tried one exercise because they thought they could skip some other steps, when they really hadn't built their foundation yet, or weren't patient enough before moving on, etc, etc. Or perhaps students of another school will say oh that doesn't work, that will hurt you... simply because this method might indeed hurt them in the way their school works, even though it may work just fine for its purpose in the other school. It might not even be clear what the purpose is without knowing the entire context of the school, so if people are talking about a particular stage and a method is described, that method might be designed to build upon a skill that was already developed by another method, and using this secondary method might only partially work, or might cause issues. On top of all of this, the exchange and practice of these methods, their criticism, praise, positive and negative health effects, etc, all are an energetic exchange with the lineage holder and lineage of that school. By sharing its methods freely, it would be connected to the karma of anyone who used those methods, and it would end up creating a lot of noise. Some schools like this path, others prefer to stay invisible, and so attract students who might have deeper reasons for coming to the school.

 

Just my 2 cents. If this would be more appropriate in a new thread, that's fine.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Daeluin

[Yae]

OK I gave you some time of my day and read through your analysis. I didn't see any mention of methods, ie what to actually do. Only description of some processes etc.

 

There is no method described. How come you have so much faith in this translation of GF?

 

"This simple and straightforward method created Immortals since ancient times!"

 

Where is it? Simply just concentrate the thoughts on the heart?

 

The one key method is "turning the light around". ZOOM just explained to me that light= awareness, and that turning the light around = focusing your awareness inwards on the upper tantien in your head.

[LaoZiDao]

 

no, it's related but not the same.

 

Do you know who did the Huangdineijing translation? There are phrases like: 歧伯曰：此其天壽過度，氣脈常通，而腎氣有餘也。此雖有子，男不過盡八八，女不過盡七七，而天地之精氣皆竭矣。In the translation we see pre-heaven and post-heaven, but in the source there is nothing about it, only 腎氣 and 天地之精氣... Anyway, xiantian 腎氣 is the key to Ming understanding.

Question, 腎氣 kidneyqi in this way is meaning postnatal based on the nature of the character used? 氣

 

Where as prenatal would be 炁?

[ralis]

ralis, what an appropriate phrase: "universal moral code." To view the universe with a lens like this can be highly valuable to one's spiritual cultivation without being doctrinaire.

 

"To a highly achieved spiritual person, being moral exists every moment; it cannot be evaded. The practice of following Tao in one’s life thus implies living in a natural moral way. The natural moral way is a state of high spiritual energy rather than a social code of educated morality. The social code is what you learn to accommodate. Spiritual morality means natural expression without decorating yourself." --Ni, Hua-Ching

 

What I meant was that humans project morality onto the universe where none exists. I spend as much time in nature as I can and nowhere do I see what humans project on nature. 'Clean heart' varies culturally and seems to me to be about moral relativism as opposed to anything universal. From the quote, 'high spiritual energy' could mean living without rules.

[opendao]

The one key method is "turning the light around". ZOOM just explained to me that light= awareness, and that turning the light around = focusing your awareness inwards on the upper tantien in your head.

 

same "method" as in TY book. Same symptoms. Again, "clean heart" is not even on the horizon. But it's just a beginning. And they think they understand something, claim teachers are not necessary any more, we live in times with no secrets? So lame. Time will fix it, anyway.

[ralis]

same "method" as in TY book. Same symptoms. Again, "clean heart" is not even on the horizon. But it's just a beginning. And they think they understand something, claim teachers are not necessary any more, we live in times with no secrets? So lame. Time will fix it, anyway.

 

Have you experienced 'turning the light of awareness' around? I have. So far you have not answered my simple questions. Am I that far beneath you that you are unable to answer?

[LaoZiDao]

 

The one key method is "turning the light around". ZOOM just explained to me that light= awareness, and that turning the light around = focusing your awareness inwards on the upper tantien in your head.

Any textual references where it says to do this? And any details on what is actually is "awareness"? Very vague term. Also what is the Chinese character from the text used as "awareness" so we can check the meanings in more detail.

 

Still no method described, very, very vaugue.

 

Stages of progress? Should all be in the book according to ZOOM and I'm not seeing it yet.

[Yae]

same "method" as in TY book. Same symptoms. Again, "clean heart" is not even on the horizon. But it's just a beginning. And they think they understand something, claim teachers are not necessary any more, we live in times with no secrets? So lame. Time will fix it, anyway.

 

Just for ZOOM's sake: I think the difference between GF and TY is TY builds up jing using horse stance (or was that just Innersound's added idea or* "guidance from a teacher"...?). GF thinks it's ok/better to skip that.

 

It sounds like pure qigong to me.

 

*of***

Edited February 9, 2015 by Bluemind

[opendao]

Question, 腎氣 kidneyqi in this way is meaning postnatal based on the nature of the character used? 氣

 

Where as prenatal would be 炁?

 

Suwen is not an alchemical text, so probably this rule cannot be applied here?

[ralis]

Even though I have many disagreements with the entire Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy, at least the ultra secret teachings have been made public in many places. I received many of those back in 1989 on a week long retreat with a Dzogchen master. I can't say the same for the ultra secret Neidan practice gurus.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Yae]

Any textual references where it says to do this? And any details on what is actually is "awareness"? Very vague term. Also what is the Chinese character from the text used as "awareness" so we can check the meanings in more detail.

 

Still no method described, very, very vaugue.

 

Stages of progress? Should all be in the book according to ZOOM and I'm not seeing it yet.

 

Hopefully ZOOM can supply the Chinese character.

 

No this is the method. Here's the exact explanation I got (I'm sure he's ok with me sharing this):

 

"Your awareness is the light.

You have to concentrate your awareness inwards on the upper tantien in your head,

or more exactly:

http://thetaobums.co...ssion/?p=606916

 

You have to achieve deep concentration, so you are only aware of that point in your head and completely unaware of everything else, so the practice has a significant effect."

[opendao]

Just for ZOOM's sake: I think the difference between GF and TY is TY builds up jing using horse stance (or was that just Innersound's added idea or "guidance from a teacher"...?). GF thinks it's ok/better to skip that.

 

It sounds like pure qigong to me.

 

I think the only position described in TY is a full lotus pose and a bit about lying down...

[Daeluin]

What I meant was that humans project morality onto the universe where none exists. I spend as much time in nature as I can and nowhere do I see what humans project on nature. 'Clean heart' varies culturally and seems to me to be about moral relativism as opposed to anything universal. From the quote, 'high spiritual energy' could mean living without rules.

 

I am fascinated by old growth forests, how the older the ecosystem becomes, the more harmonious it is. After a clear-cut, everything tries to grow back at once, struggling for dominance. After decades, the trees start to thin out, but usually there is still plenty of rampant undergrowth. After more decades, we start to have older growth trees providing a more protective area for a vast variety of medicinal species, while the rampant undergrowth has died back and nothing is really struggling for life any more and you can actually walk around between plants without stepping on them or brushing them out of the way.

 

The closer to the edges of roads and other disturbances, the more poison ivy I see. On trails sometimes I see moss and other things that don't look healthy energetically, but when I dip into areas I know no-one has come in years, I see thick lush mosses and vibrant health everywhere. It's the same with animals... those I see nearer to human scents don't look so healthy, while those more remote a the picture of full health.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[ralis]

In actuality, it is the universe that projects its morality onto humans. We are not separate from the universe.

 

Living with high spiritual energy means voluntarily and willingly abiding by the rules, aka "natural law of the universe", that promote positive spiritual growth and harmony amongst all beings.

 

I agree that we are not separate. However, that view is anthropomorphic and not tenable. This is an old philosophical argument and has no standing or solution.

 

I fail to see the self importance of the human species in this short video of Andromeda.

 

Edited February 9, 2015 by ralis