Neidan vs Qigong

[Brian]

Racist... I spoke about situation in China.

 

 

Didn't,seem like a racist question to me, given your statement.

[Starjumper]

Opendao, in your school what is the purpose of cultivating towards immortality?

 

Schucks, i know that, it's to achieve immortality.

 

Same thing in my 'school'.

[opendao]

Opendao, in your school what is the purpose of cultivating towards immortality?

 

There are different levels of immortals, it's covered in details here: http://www.all-dao.com/immortality-achievements.html

Btw, you can compare it with Buddhism, maybe there is something similar.

 

The purpose and goal of the practice is not immortality, but transforming to Shen Xian, so it's possible to directly know the laws of the Universe and own way there. Next stage, Tian Xian is to transform the physical body to the body of light. Remember the legend about Damo and the shoe left? That's about it.

[ChiDragon]

 

The purpose and goal of the practice is not immortality, but transforming to Shen Xian, so it's possible to directly know the laws of the Universe and own way there. Next stage, Tian Xian is to transform the physical body to the body of light. Remember the legend about Damo and the shoe left? That's about it.

 

Immorality(長生不老) is an indication for one to be a Shen Xian(神仙). A Shen Xian(神仙) resides in Heaven, thus it is also called Tian Xian(天仙).

[opendao]

 

Immorality(長生不老) is an indication for one to be a Shen Xian(神仙). A Shen Xian(神仙) resides in Heaven, thus it is also called Tian Xian(天仙).

 

folk pov

[ChiDragon]

folk pov

 

Poor excuse

[opendao]

 

Poor excuse

 

Read more Neidan classics, not modern fantasies, maybe then you will understand the difference between 神仙 and 天仙, and why people spend so many years to go from one to another.

[ChiDragon]

Read more Neidan classics, not modern fantasies, maybe then you will understand the difference between 神仙 and 天仙, and why people spend so many years to go from one to another.

 

Okay, I can settle with that but it is still very argumentative. I tend to agree toward your thinking though.

Edited November 17, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

There are different levels of immortals, it's covered in details here: http://www.all-dao.com/immortality-achievements.html

 

And another link:

http://www.taoiststudy.com/content/zhong-l%C3%BC-chuan-dao-ji-%E9%90%98%E5%91%82%E5%82%B3%E9%81%93%E9%9B%86%E9%92%9F%E5%90%95%E4%BC%A0%E9%81%93%E9%9B%86

 

The Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji (鐘呂傳道集/钟吕传道集; Anthology of the Transmission of the Dao from Zhong[li Quan] to Lü [Dongbin]) is associated with Zhongli Quan (second century C.E.?) and Lü Dongbin (ninth century C.E.), two of the legendary Eight Immortals. It is part of the so-called “Zhong-Lü” (鍾呂) textual tradition of internal alchemy (neidan). The text, which probably dates from the late Tang (618-906) dynasty, is in question-and-answer format, containing a dialogue between Lü and his teacher Zhongli on aspects of alchemical terminology and methods.

 

The book Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji lists five classes of immortals:

 

Guǐxiān ("Ghost Immortal"): A person who cultivates too much yin energy. These immortals are likened to Vampires because they drain the life essence of the living, much like the fox spirit. Ghost immortals do not leave the realm of ghosts.

 

Rénxiān (“Human Immortal”): Humans have an equal balance of yin and yang energies, so they have the potential of becoming either a ghost or immortal. Although they continue to hunger and thirst and require clothing and shelter like a normal human, these immortals do not suffer from aging or sickness. Human immortals do not leave the realm of humans. [21] There are many sub-classes of human immortals.

 

Dìxiān (“Earth Immortal”): When the yin is transformed into the pure yang, a true immortal body will emerge that does not need food, drink, clothing or shelter and is not effected by hot or cold temperatures. Earth immortals do not leave the realm of earth. These immortals are forced to stay on earth until they shed their human form.

 

Shénxiān ("Spirit Immortal"): The immortal body of the earthbound class will eventually change into vapor through further practice. They have supernatural powers and can take on the shape of any object. These immortals must remain on earth acquiring merit by teaching mankind about the Tao. Spirit immortals do not leave the realm of spirits. Once enough merit is accumulated, they are called to heaven by a celestial decree.

 

Tiānxiān (“Celestial Immortal”) – Spirit immortals who are summoned to heaven are given the minor office of water realm judge. Over time, they are promoted to oversee the earth realm and finally become administrators of the celestial realm. These immortals have the power to travel back and forth between the earthly and celestial realms.

Edited November 17, 2013 by dawei

[LaoZiDao]

There are different levels of immortals, it's covered in details here: http://www.all-dao.com/immortality-achievements.html

Btw, you can compare it with Buddhism, maybe there is something similar.

 

The purpose and goal of the practice is not immortality, but transforming to Shen Xian, so it's possible to directly know the laws of the Universe and own way there. Next stage, Tian Xian is to transform the physical body to the body of light. Remember the legend about Damo and the shoe left? That's about it.

 

I was wondering if you know what the Chinese characters are for 'Jen' in Jen Xian as mentioned in this paragraph below:

 

Di Xian...

"From this stage the achievements are irreversible in a way of returning transformation (the exception is the phase of Jen Xian where it’s easy to become an ordinary person again after having wasted Ming). But if due to external conditions or because of the body destruction the practice is not completed, it may be needed to revert to the previous level"

[opendao]

 

I was wondering if you know what the Chinese characters are for 'Jen' in Jen Xian as mentioned in this paragraph below:

 

Di Xian...

"From this stage the achievements are irreversible in a way of returning transformation (the exception is the phase of Jen Xian where it’s easy to become an ordinary person again after having wasted Ming). But if due to external conditions or because of the body destruction the practice is not completed, it may be needed to revert to the previous level"

 

Sorry, it's a mistake because of Russian transcription system, it has to be Rénxiān

[dawei]

Sorry, it's a mistake because of Russian transcription system, it has to be Rénxiān

 

I have actually seen many places where Jen seems synonymous with Ren... but don't know why they don't just use Ren. I don't think it is simply a reverting to Wades-Giles notation as in many passages one sees Ren... and then Jen...

 

But, IMO, it does mean Ren as context dictates it.

 

Examples I found:

Sheng Jen = Sheng Ren Sage, or

Chen Jen = Zhen Ren = Realized Being

[LaoZiDao]

Sorry, it's a mistake because of Russian transcription system, it has to be Rénxiān

 

Thank you for clearing that up, I thought it may have been a mistake as I had never heard such thing before

[LaoZiDao]

Thanks, I will visit Wudang prolly next Spring.

Don't want to come across as a blunt knucklehead, but as far as I know, real teachings are not to be sold, not sure what exactly you guys teach to foreigners. Expensive is not okay either, I'm just a student, not a businessman

 

I would not bother with going to Wudang... you wont get authentic Neidan teachings.

[宁]

Hey Wudang is a good place to travel, I'll prolly go just to kinda arogantly sneer at the learning 'authentic Daoism' crowd lol

Don't care much for 长城 兵马俑 等 but I'll take a shot at the new and improved Wudang. Even the bricks and cement there couldn't be older than 10-15 years... So much was lost. I remember the last trip at the Shaolin temple, the Pagoda Forest had some new additions, aside the traditional old brick constructions you can witness monstrosities made of concrete that have new religious simbols drawn, like camera and laptop. Couldn't believe it myself!

[Tarmander]

I am new to these forums, but I have read this thread and think I can add an experience that may help move the topic along. What perked my interest in this thread was the discussion of xing vs ming. I am still new to Taoism, so I will perhaps use part of the lingo wrong, hopefully it will be understandable.

 

About four and a half years ago I was introduced to an organization that taught certain breathing exercises and meditation classes. They are all around the world, and you can probably find a teacher near you if it interests you (it is called Art of Living and is based on hindu/Indian practices). I was looking for something to get involved in, some practice to adopt, some way to get to a higher place (THAT desire if you know what i mean).

 

So I started attending these classes and volunteering regularly. They taught breathing exercises like bhastrika, holding locks with breath, cyclical breathing, and pranayama. The meditation they taught used mantras and focusing on the heart region. The guided meditations often had you moving your focus to different points on the body, all usually in the MCO although no chi movement was taught. And of course, everything started off with yoga, usually very gentle. There were also ample talks by the guru and knowledge points.

 

I think most very public organizations like this follow this pattern in some form or another (TM comes to mind, AYP probably too).

 

Now my experience with this was great at first, We were always "purifying" and "cleansing" ourselves. The diet was vegetarian with all the new age nutrition add ons. I came from eating meat and drinking alcohol, so when I dropped those I felt so much better, almost ethereal. I remember commenting that when I gave up meat and started these practices, I felt lighter, freer, and not as tied down. I was on the way to liberation!

 

As the years went by though, cracks began to appear. I would take these long meditation courses and would feel amazing during them. I would have all these spiritual experiences of seeing colors or light, feeling a presence within, etc...I am sure you have all had some variation on these. When I came back from the course though, I would not feel good. I would be tired, run down, and usually have some type of sore throat or cold thing. I found that I just wanted to get back to meditating, to breathing, to being one with my inner being. I also was having trouble sleeping. I would have a restless body at night and would just shake uncontrollably, sometimes for a couple hours.

 

I noticed other people who had been with the organization for a long time display some of these characteristics too. They would be very sensitive to foods, the air, and the energy of where they were at. Some were very skinny and hypoglycemic while others were very large and had dark circles under their eyes. What confused me the most was that these unhealthy people were about helping others and spreading joy and love to the world. It was like seeing a beautiful picture with ugly paint.

 

To wrap this up, I eventually went to India to study with the master for two months. It was amazing, I loved it, it changed my life, etc. However my health had never been worse. I was constantly sick, gained weight in my mid section, had blood sugar fluctuations, and never got enough sleep. It was always "detoxing" and "purifying."

 

When I came back, I kept practicing until my health nose dived. I got to a point where I lost so much weight that I was the same weight as when I was in high school. I looked like a skeleton. I couldn't sleep, I had energy coursing through me at all times. My eyes moved way too fast, I was constantly super focused, and I felt like I had a clenched fist in my brain. I gave up my practices, started eating meat, and in the last year my health has come back quite a lot. The shakes have calmed down, and I sleep better.

 

To bring this back to the conversation, I am wondering if this would be something along the lines of the Xing method (focusing on the heart region, yoga, etc). When Opendao talks about Xing and Ming, my experience tells me that what most big organizations are offering is something along what I have detailed, and is the Xing approach first. It is hard to describe unless you have done it. You use energy to have experiences that are amazing but these drain you in some vital way.

 

So what would be the Ming approach? That is what I am wondering. It seems like it would be cooking food daily, eating quietly, walking my dog and touching the trees. Very grounding things that I do daily that do not seem to require energy in the same way that the practices used to. They have a feeling of not being forced, of stillness, of peace. However in the practices, there were times of peace, effortlessness, and some stillness. So it is not an easy distinction to make. Perhaps those things I do daily are not forced, and yet any of the practices I have done all seem to be forced in some way.

 

I do not know if I am making sense, but I wanted to contribute this because in this whole thread there has been a lot of arguing but not much of what it actually feels like. It seems like Xing and Ming are the same thing, and yet they are different in some way. Once you see it, you can feel it as soon as you walk into a room full of people doing some type of practice. It is like, "ahh, this is not grounded, this is not natural in some way, this practice is an illusion."

 

What I really want to know is whether there are practices that are Ming because I have not been able to find any. I am going to try some qigong here next weekend, but I fear I will find the same thing after reading this thread. Is there a practice that is natural and that helps move chi in the MCO without actually moving the chi yourself or practicing? Is there a practice that isn't a practice?

[Antares]

Yes, all these practices are Xing. People have some benefits bc of purging their Xing by means of depletion of Ming. It could be different variations of breath through the spine or MCO, visualizations etc. Opendao won't tell you what is Ming. This is secret. Because many people could create their fake lineages and use this knowledge as "method" if you tell them what that technique about. Quiet seating is definetely not the Ming as far as I know.

[LaoZiDao]

Yes they are all Xing practices.

 

Yes Opendao knows Ming methods under his School Dao De

 

 

- Ming methods cannot be found in books

- If there is use of visualization, meditation, stopping thoughts, stopping breath, controlling breath, sitting this is all Illusionary methods and will not achieve any result. It will drain Jing and make you sick (as you mention in your post).

- Ming is nothing about what you guessed it was. I don't want to say it is secret, but it is protected for good reasons.

 

Also meat is required for practice until a practitioner is a much higher level.

 

I also have Ming methods.

 

I would start with reading their website, read all the articles!

http://www.all-dao.com

[Wu Ming Jen]

 

I would not bother with going to Wudang... you wont get authentic Neidan teachings.

I would have to seriously disagree with this statement. But it can also be very true depending on who you are as a person..

 

The masters are not concerned with written material for those who like to read.

 

Doing is knowing, knowing is doing.

 

Wudang is a very ancient place with the architecture, many herbs and ancient tea trees that are all alive and well.The cultural revolution left Wudang ALMOST empty until Mao died and the rebuilding began in the 80's

[LaoZiDao]

"The only sad thing is that such methods may become even more rare as the time passes on because the interest in cultivation is diminishing as time goes on. "

 

If you have fate to find it, you will. You can find a teacher in the most unexpected places

[LaoZiDao]

Wu Jen Ming, the place of practice does not matter. There is no need for cultivating in such places. What's important is having correct method and being persistent to do it daily, as gradually retreat from the social world. But even then this is not required. You can still be a successful business man with a family and achieve Dao, though you must have no attachment / desire for social world. It's simple but hard to understand, and also hard to describe without giving people the wrong idea

[Vitalii]

I am new to these forums, but I have read this thread and think I can add an experience that may help move the topic along. What perked my interest in this thread was the discussion of xing vs ming. I am still new to Taoism, so I will perhaps use part of the lingo wrong, hopefully it will be understandable.

 

About four and a half years ago I was introduced to an organization that taught certain breathing exercises and meditation classes. They are all around the world, and you can probably find a teacher near you if it interests you (it is called Art of Living and is based on hindu/Indian practices). I was looking for something to get involved in, some practice to adopt, some way to get to a higher place (THAT desire if you know what i mean).

 

So I started attending these classes and volunteering regularly. They taught breathing exercises like bhastrika, holding locks with breath, cyclical breathing, and pranayama. The meditation they taught used mantras and focusing on the heart region. The guided meditations often had you moving your focus to different points on the body, all usually in the MCO although no chi movement was taught. And of course, everything started off with yoga, usually very gentle. There were also ample talks by the guru and knowledge points.

 

I think most very public organizations like this follow this pattern in some form or another (TM comes to mind, AYP probably too).

 

Now my experience with this was great at first, We were always "purifying" and "cleansing" ourselves. The diet was vegetarian with all the new age nutrition add ons. I came from eating meat and drinking alcohol, so when I dropped those I felt so much better, almost ethereal. I remember commenting that when I gave up meat and started these practices, I felt lighter, freer, and not as tied down. I was on the way to liberation!

 

As the years went by though, cracks began to appear. I would take these long meditation courses and would feel amazing during them. I would have all these spiritual experiences of seeing colors or light, feeling a presence within, etc...I am sure you have all had some variation on these. When I came back from the course though, I would not feel good. I would be tired, run down, and usually have some type of sore throat or cold thing. I found that I just wanted to get back to meditating, to breathing, to being one with my inner being. I also was having trouble sleeping. I would have a restless body at night and would just shake uncontrollably, sometimes for a couple hours.

 

I noticed other people who had been with the organization for a long time display some of these characteristics too. They would be very sensitive to foods, the air, and the energy of where they were at. Some were very skinny and hypoglycemic while others were very large and had dark circles under their eyes. What confused me the most was that these unhealthy people were about helping others and spreading joy and love to the world. It was like seeing a beautiful picture with ugly paint.

 

To wrap this up, I eventually went to India to study with the master for two months. It was amazing, I loved it, it changed my life, etc. However my health had never been worse. I was constantly sick, gained weight in my mid section, had blood sugar fluctuations, and never got enough sleep. It was always "detoxing" and "purifying."

 

When I came back, I kept practicing until my health nose dived. I got to a point where I lost so much weight that I was the same weight as when I was in high school. I looked like a skeleton. I couldn't sleep, I had energy coursing through me at all times. My eyes moved way too fast, I was constantly super focused, and I felt like I had a clenched fist in my brain. I gave up my practices, started eating meat, and in the last year my health has come back quite a lot. The shakes have calmed down, and I sleep better.

 

To bring this back to the conversation, I am wondering if this would be something along the lines of the Xing method (focusing on the heart region, yoga, etc). When Opendao talks about Xing and Ming, my experience tells me that what most big organizations are offering is something along what I have detailed, and is the Xing approach first. It is hard to describe unless you have done it. You use energy to have experiences that are amazing but these drain you in some vital way.

 

So what would be the Ming approach? That is what I am wondering. It seems like it would be cooking food daily, eating quietly, walking my dog and touching the trees. Very grounding things that I do daily that do not seem to require energy in the same way that the practices used to. They have a feeling of not being forced, of stillness, of peace. However in the practices, there were times of peace, effortlessness, and some stillness. So it is not an easy distinction to make. Perhaps those things I do daily are not forced, and yet any of the practices I have done all seem to be forced in some way.

 

I do not know if I am making sense, but I wanted to contribute this because in this whole thread there has been a lot of arguing but not much of what it actually feels like. It seems like Xing and Ming are the same thing, and yet they are different in some way. Once you see it, you can feel it as soon as you walk into a room full of people doing some type of practice. It is like, "ahh, this is not grounded, this is not natural in some way, this practice is an illusion."

 

What I really want to know is whether there are practices that are Ming because I have not been able to find any. I am going to try some qigong here next weekend, but I fear I will find the same thing after reading this thread. Is there a practice that is natural and that helps move chi in the MCO without actually moving the chi yourself or practicing? Is there a practice that isn't a practice?

Methods of Inner Alchemy are primarily focused on cleansing and improving of heart nature, cleansing of heart and mind from obscurations, and comprehension of original nature (Xing).

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32561-the-teaching-of-quanzhen/

Process of self-improvement involves work with a primordial energy (Ming) – the vital force that helps one to find inner harmony, grow spiritually and understand themselves.

Thus, it brings a double improvement – of heart nature (Xing) and vitality (Ming).

[LaoZiDao]

Zhen Dao Pai is a known fake school founded by Vitalii.

[zerostao]

Zhen Dao Pai is a known fake school founded by Vitalii.

laozidao, what is the basis of your accusation?

[Vitalii]

Zhen Dao Pai is a known fake school founded by Vitalii.

 

Even if you constantly repeat this, it will not become true.