Neidan vs Qigong

[Brian]

Zhen Dao Pai is a known fake school founded by Vitalii.

laozidao, what is the basis of your accusation?

 

Indeed. This is a bluntly stated and very serious accusation. I think it is reasonable to now expect an unemotional and plainly stated presentation of evidence to justify this accusation.

[Vitalii]

Indeed. This is a bluntly stated and very serious accusation. I think it is reasonable to now expect an unemotional and plainly stated presentation of evidence to justify this accusation.

 

Brian, over the several years, LaoZiDao and his friends from Wuliupai [opendao and other] have been spreading lies about me and Zhendaopai, and now he has come to this forum with the same target.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Vitalii

[opendao]

Indeed. This is a bluntly stated and very serious accusation. I think it is reasonable to now expect an unemotional and plainly stated presentation of evidence to justify this accusation.

 

evidences were published on this forum by many different people, but our brave moderators deleted everything (almost). If you want evidences, there is PM.

[LaoZiDao]

Its simple to see why, because "Mind work and meditation", "Qigong" etc is not Neidan, and yes I notice the Zhen Dao Pai site does mention that Qigong is used for practitioner's in inital stages, and then moves to "Inner Alchemy".. which sounds great BUT their "Inner Alchemy" method is Dazuo (打坐) ...Dazuo is NOT alchemy! The difference between true alchemy is the difference between Post-natal (Houtian) and Pre-natal work (Xiantian). Dazuo is a still sitting practice which is Xing in nature and working with Post-natal energies. Stillness is Yin, still sitting gives rise to Yin (cultivation of Gui Xian AKA Ghost). Another problem is the depletion Yuan Jing. Also Heart Fire rises to the brain and casues maddess and sickness (which is one kind of entering maddness and roving fire), this is very common in amoung Buddhist monks etc. There is also proof in this thread about the dangers of working with Xing. Refer to what TaoBum member Tarmander said about his experiences in this thread.

The articles written on Zhen Dao Pai's website sound beautiful, but unfortunatly there is many problems with the theory's. Also they are not the words of a Neidan Master with a proper linage.

"Remember: the sitting gives rise to yin, and yin leads to the death." - Teacher of Single Yang

Refer to these articles from The Teacher of Single Yang below:

Problems with Practising Xing methods:

Zhenchangzi asked: I ask Teacher to explain the main problems in the practice of Xing

The Teacher of Single Yang said: The most basic problem of the practice of xing - is the impossibility of a chieving perfection before consolidation (fusion) of xing and ming, the impossibility of completion of ming using xing, the impossibility to achieve the ability of stopping leakage of (jing).

People who practice the methods of xing will inevitably lose yuanjing during the perfection process; if it is proceeded, the body will wither and become exhausted, the face turn yellow and will look tired, and senile infirmity will appear. The ignoramI often believe that this state is "melting the primordial qi and transforming it into shen" and "melting shen TO return into the emptiness." Such delusions occur very often. (Some qigong teachers have great powers. Of diagnosis and treatment of diseases , but their bodies are withered, that indicates of too much using of xing and as a consequence - great damage to the spirit Shen).

Although during the practice of xing some unusual abilities may indeed appear, but the excessive using of the thought cause a lot of deviations. In some people this causes the “roving fire and falling into madness”. Therefore, those who do the practice with xing for a long time, should change their practice, focusing on the practice of ming and only then it will be possible to avoid the dangers. This is exactly what in the Taoist alchemy is called "perfecting of xing without perfecting of ming – Is the first disease of perfection."

Problems with Dazuo Meditation

Most modern methods of practice rely on a meditation as a method of "enlightenment". The following text is an excerpt about meditation from the book of the Teacher of Single Yang.

"In the world there is a kind of method of practicing «alchemy» in the form of sitting silently, muttering the spells or prayers or their own various practices of sitting. Practitioners of them completely don’t understand that it is absolutely useless and does not lead to any result. This sitting (meditation) is called «枯禪» - a withering contemplation, withered Chan. In the Taoism is often said that "the movement causes Yang" and "the immobility causes Yin", "pure Yang is a Xian (immortal)", "pure Yin is a Gui (a devil, a ghost).” If you sit in Dazuo (a sitting practice in the lotus or a cross-legged practice, a meditation), it is a false calmness, “Yin is caused” by the continuation of this process, and the longer the sitting will last, the paler and the flabbier the face will become and the more worse the health and condition of body will be. Then the Yang jing cannot be retained in the body and will be scattered outside.

The seeker of the spiritual practice! First think about an amount of the jing you have, so you're not afraid to exhaust it by sitting, to die even without knowing that it will happen from your practice, unknowingly destroy your soul by an unreasonable predilection of a profane teaching? If this happens, it will be truly sad!

Our ancient school of Taoist alchemy of Wu Chung-xu and Liu Hua-yang categorically forbids students to practice the sitting dazuo (meditation) at the early stages of practice; those who talk about the sitting dazuo and mystifies the people's, is better for these people to go faster to practice dazuo themselves! The true alchemy does not include it. Because the dazuo can not, principle, produce any results, and it is used only as a secondary work and only at the final stages of practice. The sitting datzuo can only be used for recuperation but never as the main method. (As a medicinal method the sitting can be used for those who have problems with hypotension of the heart and hyperemia, but not too long sitting).

I have a personal disciple, who has been practicing the long sittings of schools Chan and Mizun. He was very persistent and hard worked and brought himself to almost absolute exhaustion of jing. His face blackened, his ears were covered with the dry crust, and then the sperm has started to leak out of his body. After each sitting an abundant leakage of sperm begun from his body and the Ming in his body was rapidly emptying.

Only by intensive practice of our School of Taoist alchemy he succeeded in avoiding the death. Therefore, the true alchemy school does not teach the sitting dazuo, the followers of Wu Chung-xu and Liu Hua-yang do not practice it.

"Xing is a Yin part, then Ming is a Yang part. The YIN spirit (i.e. Xing) is inert and has no energy, and therefore he can’t rise to higher worlds. He needs energy similarly to a rocket needing fuel for the takeoff. Using only the meditation and any methods tied to Xing only changes the Yin'S characteristics, but makes no qualitative change. The ancient Taoist tradition (and with it those that I have already mentioned) uses the energy of Ming for fusion with Xing.Thus it turns these two into a Yang Spirit , also called a Tao fetus, who has the real potential and can move to higher worlds. So it is the Fusion of the energy Ming with the soul Xing that is the essence of alchemy." - Dmitry A. Artemyev

[ChiDragon]

Brian, over the several years, LaoZiDao and his friends from Wuliupai [opendao and other] have been spreading lies about me and Zhendaopai, and now he has come to this forum with the same target.

 

Vitallii.....

I think the name of your Taoist sect gave you lots of trouble. According to your website, Zhendaopai(真道派) is an off shoot from Wang Chong Yang(王重陽) which was the founder of 全真教(Quan Zhen Jiao). Perhaps you should call it 全真派(Quan Zhen Pai).

[opendao]

I am new to these forums, but I have read this thread and think I can add an experience that may help move the topic along. What perked my interest in this thread was the discussion of xing vs ming. I am still new to Taoism, so I will perhaps use part of the lingo wrong, hopefully it will be understandable.

 

About four and a half years ago I was introduced to an organization that taught certain breathing exercises and meditation classes. They are all around the world, and you can probably find a teacher near you if it interests you (it is called Art of Living and is based on hindu/Indian practices). I was looking for something to get involved in, some practice to adopt, some way to get to a higher place (THAT desire if you know what i mean).

 

So I started attending these classes and volunteering regularly. They taught breathing exercises like bhastrika, holding locks with breath, cyclical breathing, and pranayama. The meditation they taught used mantras and focusing on the heart region. The guided meditations often had you moving your focus to different points on the body, all usually in the MCO although no chi movement was taught. And of course, everything started off with yoga, usually very gentle. There were also ample talks by the guru and knowledge points.

 

I think most very public organizations like this follow this pattern in some form or another (TM comes to mind, AYP probably too).

 

Now my experience with this was great at first, We were always "purifying" and "cleansing" ourselves. The diet was vegetarian with all the new age nutrition add ons. I came from eating meat and drinking alcohol, so when I dropped those I felt so much better, almost ethereal. I remember commenting that when I gave up meat and started these practices, I felt lighter, freer, and not as tied down. I was on the way to liberation!

 

As the years went by though, cracks began to appear. I would take these long meditation courses and would feel amazing during them. I would have all these spiritual experiences of seeing colors or light, feeling a presence within, etc...I am sure you have all had some variation on these. When I came back from the course though, I would not feel good. I would be tired, run down, and usually have some type of sore throat or cold thing. I found that I just wanted to get back to meditating, to breathing, to being one with my inner being. I also was having trouble sleeping. I would have a restless body at night and would just shake uncontrollably, sometimes for a couple hours.

 

I noticed other people who had been with the organization for a long time display some of these characteristics too. They would be very sensitive to foods, the air, and the energy of where they were at. Some were very skinny and hypoglycemic while others were very large and had dark circles under their eyes. What confused me the most was that these unhealthy people were about helping others and spreading joy and love to the world. It was like seeing a beautiful picture with ugly paint.

 

To wrap this up, I eventually went to India to study with the master for two months. It was amazing, I loved it, it changed my life, etc. However my health had never been worse. I was constantly sick, gained weight in my mid section, had blood sugar fluctuations, and never got enough sleep. It was always "detoxing" and "purifying."

 

When I came back, I kept practicing until my health nose dived. I got to a point where I lost so much weight that I was the same weight as when I was in high school. I looked like a skeleton. I couldn't sleep, I had energy coursing through me at all times. My eyes moved way too fast, I was constantly super focused, and I felt like I had a clenched fist in my brain. I gave up my practices, started eating meat, and in the last year my health has come back quite a lot. The shakes have calmed down, and I sleep better.

 

To bring this back to the conversation, I am wondering if this would be something along the lines of the Xing method (focusing on the heart region, yoga, etc). When Opendao talks about Xing and Ming, my experience tells me that what most big organizations are offering is something along what I have detailed, and is the Xing approach first. It is hard to describe unless you have done it. You use energy to have experiences that are amazing but these drain you in some vital way.

 

Thank you to share all that. It's the best anti-meditation post I've ever read :-) You described a modern new-age approach, based on so called "meditation" and "yoga". There are many of them everywhere: Mantak Chia, Zhen Dao Pai, Eva Wong, Wang Liping, various Kundalini Yoga classes and so on.

 

All such methods are YIN.

 

All symptoms I highlighted in your post: they are VERY YIN.

 

You almost killed yourself by such approach!

 

It has nothing in common with Xing Gong practised in Neidan Daoist traditional schools! Because Xing Gong doesn't unbalanced your body's Yin / Yang balance. So don't listen to Yin people who tried to sell their methods :-) They don't understand what happens when YANG arises!

 

Xing Gong is not just a revealing of your Shen. It's a transformation of your Yuan Shen, it's a process when you give a YANG power of your body to the Shen-spirit. For sure, it's very far from "sitting and forgetting", as well as from any use of the imagination to drag the energy through the body. It's stupid, it's just wasting your life force and time, without any hope to get them back!

 

That's what Teacher Of Single Yang describes as: "the sitting gives rise to yin, and yin leads to the death."

 

So what would be the Ming approach? That is what I am wondering. It seems like it would be cooking food daily, eating quietly, walking my dog and touching the trees. Very grounding things that I do daily that do not seem to require energy in the same way that the practices used to. They have a feeling of not being forced, of stillness, of peace. However in the practices, there were times of peace, effortlessness, and some stillness. So it is not an easy distinction to make. Perhaps those things I do daily are not forced, and yet any of the practices I have done all seem to be forced in some way.

 

You found your way to balance Yin and Yang in your life. It's good. Remember Buddha, after he finally ate some food after a long and stupid fasting? What you describe is not Ming Gong, there is no transformation. It's a balance, and good old Qigong systems also do that.

 

Ming Gong starts with restoring Yuan Jing to the full state we have when we're young. Everything else is not Ming Gong, even if some people try to say that they work with Primordial / Pre Heaven energy and so on. They can work in theory, but in 99.9% it means that they just spend it, not restore!

 

I do not know if I am making sense, but I wanted to contribute this because in this whole thread there has been a lot of arguing but not much of what it actually feels like. It seems like Xing and Ming are the same thing, and yet they are different in some way. Once you see it, you can feel it as soon as you walk into a room full of people doing some type of practice. It is like, "ahh, this is not grounded, this is not natural in some way, this practice is an illusion."

 

What I really want to know is whether there are practices that are Ming because I have not been able to find any. I am going to try some qigong here next weekend, but I fear I will find the same thing after reading this thread. Is there a practice that is natural and that helps move chi in the MCO without actually moving the chi yourself or practicing? Is there a practice that isn't a practice?

 

No, the practice looks like practice. You cannot restore Jing sleeping in armchair. MCO starts on its own when you restore Yuan Jing. The Ming practices are really hard to find. It has no sense to describe how it "feels like" when you do them. Because the only important thing is the result. If Yuan Jing is restored, it becomes self evident not only for you, but for other people as well. That is why LaoZiDao says about Ren Xian level and about making a long research, to find your teacher, learn the methods and achieve unbelievable results.

 

And Ming, and Xing - they are transcendent, they are not of this world.

Edited November 20, 2013 by opendao

[Tarmander]

Thank you to share all that. It's the best anti-meditation post I've ever read :-) You described a modern new-age approach, based on so called "meditation" and "yoga". There are many of them everywhere: Mantak Chia, Zhen Dao Pai, Eva Wong, Wang Liping, various Kundalini Yoga classes and so on.

 

All such methods are YIN.

 

All symptoms I highlighted in your post: they are VERY YIN.

 

You almost killed yourself by such approach!

 

It has nothing in common with Xing Gong practised in Neidan Daoist traditional schools! Because Xing Gong doesn't unbalanced your body's Yin / Yang balance. So don't listen to Yin people who tried to sell their methods :-) They don't understand what happens when YANG arises!

 

Xing Gong is not just a revealing of your Shen. It's a transformation of your Yuan Shen, it's a process when you give a YANG power of your body to the Shen-spirit. For sure, it's very far from "sitting and forgetting", as well as from any use of the imagination to drag the energy through the body. It's stupid, it's just wasting your life force and time, without any hope to get them back!

 

That's what Teacher Of Single Yang describes as: "the sitting gives rise to yin, and yin leads to the death."

 

 

You found your way to balance Yin and Yang in your life. It's good. Remember Buddha, after he finally ate some food after a long and stupid fasting? What you describe is not Ming Gong, there is no transformation. It's a balance, and good old Qigong systems also do that.

 

Ming Gong starts with restoring Yuan Jing to the full state we have when we're young. Everything else is not Ming Gong, even if some people try to say that they work with Primordial / Pre Heaven energy and so on. They can work in theory, but in 99.9% it means that they just spend it, not restore!

 

 

No, the practice looks like practice. You cannot restore Jing sleeping in armchair. MCO starts on its own when you restore Yuan Jing. The Ming practices are really hard to find. It has no sense to describe how it "feels like" when you do them. Because the only important thing is the result. If Yuan Jing is restored, it becomes self evident not only for you, but for other people as well. That is why LaoZiDao says about Ren Xian level and about making a long research, to find your teacher, learn the methods and achieve unbelievable results.

 

And Ming, and Xing - they are transcendent, they are not of this world.

 

Thank you for your response. You are correct, I have found balance and have cultivated much more yang in my lifestyle and thinking. The post really is kind of anti meditation, although I did not mean it to be. I think you definitely have it nailed with all those practices being too yin. I definitely felt more yin at the time. I thought I could get away with it, but eventually what is flawed must break.

 

I have read the website http://www.all-dao.com, at least everything I could get without signing up. I have some...criticisms...I hope you will not take them personally. Here is the thing. When you say do a lot of research and find your master, your method, etc...I get that. I have tried so many different practices, so many different masters over the years. I have been on this path for AWHILE.

 

Which makes it very hard to believe that this school in Russia has the super secret practice that actually works. That all the other practices have all got it wrong, and if I had just found the exact right combination in ten thousand practices, I would be floating around on abundant chi and glowing rainbows. Almost like, if instead of breathing through my nostrils, as I reached for my toes, I had breathed through my mouth, then the heavens would open up.

 

I would really love to believe that you have that practice; that when you start doing the JIUYANGSHENGONG, things just start opening up like magic. But there are a lot of red flags that I have learned to listen to.

 

•Like an organization denouncing all other methods as inferior yet not giving an accessible alternative.

•Or offering a very nice carrot that can only be received through them and their super secret process.(I am not counting the few other schools you mentioned that seemed super obscure).

•Or the apparent contradiction of emphasizing a master's meticulous guiding hand while also making students into teachers after "training" them in what I assume is a very short period of time (while the lineage may be long, the school opened in 2007).

 

So while I love your explanation of things, and it really has helped me understand what I went through, I do not think you have this Ming method. In fact, until I have seen otherwise, I do not think there is such a method that is capable of giving you all that you have described. And If i flew to Russia, learned Russian, and took this class, I am guessing I would feel about the same as I have of all those other practices that I have left behind.

 

That doesn't mean it isn't possible to have all those great things you described, just that there is something missing when you think that a method will give you those things. That somehow, you can figure out a set of steps and practices that in x amount of time will give you the most rarefied thing on this planet. Hell, there isn't even a method for a successful marriage; maybe some guidelines, but you have to take it day by day.

 

I might be wrong and maybe in a few years you will show up on these forums and be a glowing ball of bliss in which case I will bow down, kiss your feet, and beg you to teach me. I am always ready to be shown the way, so please, if you do have THE way, show me. Be upfront and show me.

[Tarmander]

Oh and I loved that story malikshreds. Have any more like that?

[Vitalii]

About Dazuo - http://thetaobums.com/topic/32561-the-teaching-of-quanzhen/?p=497316

 

P.S.
"If your heart is bright, then even in a dark chamber there is blue sky.

If your thoughts are gloomy, then even in broad daylight cruel demons appear." (Hong Zicheng)

Edited November 20, 2013 by Vitalii

[Starjumper]

I didn't read through the initial posts on this thread so didn't know if the subject came up.

 

What I want to point out is the following, which has been hinted at recently in this thread.

 

Unfortunately, since people have become aware of the values of nei kung we have more people claiming to be teaching it.

 

1. All chi kung systems are microscopic subsets of vast nei kung systems.

 

2. Most chi kung practitioners are not aware of most nei kung techniques, but nei kung practitoners generally know about all or most chi kung techniques.

 

3. Since all chi kung systems are just small subsets of much larger nei kung systems it means that chi kung is generally simplistic and limited in scope while nei kung systems are vast and holistic in their approach.

 

4. Since some teachers tell us that nei kung is really sitting around meditating and visualizing with your finger in your nose, or teach some simplistic and wimpy exercise which they tell you is powerful, they are either misinformed, uninformed, and unevolved or are simply lying to make money and become popular; or other more sinister things.

 

5. Since chi kung systems are small subsets of vast nei kung systems that means that a REAL nei kung system will include almost all the moving exercises you have ever seen and a bunch more you will never see or hear about except possibly as some 'encrypted' recipe. Therefore when some teacher comes along with a system that just contains a few stupid exercises and lots of lies and MAX bullshit then you can be sure they are just giving you a tiny piece of nei kung, which then is not nei kung is it? If you take 99.9% of the exercises away from a nei kung system it is no longer nei kung, it is chi kung, and generally fairly poor chi kung at that.

 

B. K. would back me up on this.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

It is true that nei kung is more internal and chi kung is more external, but that doesn't mean only sitting with your finger in your nose, it is how you apply and combine the stillness and moving exercises. Nei kung is more internal but they still use a lot of moving chi kung type exercses, and some are pretty strenuous.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Starjumper

[Wu Ming Jen]

The funny part is that we are all immortal not more in sages or in others.It is only a matter of remembering. Where do you come from?....I don't know..... so you come from the unknown. That should clear things up, there is nothing to know

 

Mortals chase after worldly things and think these things are most important. Immortals see worldly things as passing transformations of non permanence. fighting on this is right, this is wrong method is a very mortal thing to do.

 

My advise is throw it all away. The desire is the affliction that causes illness.

[Tarmander]

The funny part is that we are all immortal not more in sages or in others.It is only a matter of remembering. Where do you come from?....I don't know..... so you come from the unknown. That should clear things up, there is nothing to know

 

Mortals chase after worldly things and think these things are most important. Immortals see worldly things as passing transformations of non permanence. fighting on this is right, this is wrong method is a very mortal thing to do.

 

My advise is throw it all away. The desire is the affliction that causes illness.

 

Good stuff, that really resonates with me

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Just want to say -- I don't know what kinds of chi gung people are practicing that will deplete their yuan shen more than them simply living their lives as normal. Chi gung makes people more relaxed, peaceful, healthy, sometimes energetic. How would this deplete their original spirit?

 

And meditation as well. There's an idea here that nobody should practice sitting meditation because it will cause spermatorea and death. Sorry, but anyone who says that seems to have not even the slightest knowledge about anything to do with Taoist and Buddhist practices, both of which generally include lots and lots and lots (and sometimes more) of sitting meditation. Buddhists are not secretly walking around with dirty underpants and dying off in all the thousands of meditation halls around the world, and neither are Taoists. To make such a claim is far more discrediting than convincing.

 

I don't know much at all about secret neidan practices, but there are some serious flaws in the logic of these assertions which would be much better clarified.

[Brian]

<snip>Buddhists are not secretly walking around with dirty underpants</snip>

Well, they MIGHT be but you wouldn't know it because it's a secret...

 

I took some time over the last day or so and read over many of the posts related to the apparent dispute between Vitalii and his detractors, as well as poking around on various websites and doing some Internet searches. While I certainly don't claim to be a "xing vs. ming" expert, I recognize a vendetta when I see one.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Brian

[Antares]

It does not deplete yuan shen but yuan jing and even might strenghten yaun shen but then it would turn into yin-shen. For example dreaming. It depletes yuan jing they say. Everything we do depletes our yuan jing. And when one uses special breath or breath retention it might reduce yuan jing because of one would use his yuan jing imho. For example some people do some kind of breath which affects chakras. It might be not actual work with chakra but work with visualized chakra - you use your imagination and body fluids or vigour movents... but smooth motions might not deplete your yuan jing. Martial art do it bc they use power and jing. It depends. I had this experience and I understand this position. Few years ago I was "initiated " into yoga where I should concentrate on thr third eye. I was stupid having done it and I got problem with headache and I used to visit accupuncture doctor. Even now many teachers on this forum would teach you doing so. Recently I contacted a yoga teacher here with a query on yoga and he advised me some weird stuff like that and I said it was bad idea. He replied that I am emotionally unbalanced and not ready for good yoga. And Blah blah new age stuff. He said he wanted to help me. They would teach you this stuff with boon motives not realizing what they really teach. I have had this experience and I did this long sitting in buddhist meds and I had shift to the yin. I was really bad! I do nit buy it anymore. Also I asked a qigong teacher here on the TTB and it finished with that I was just abused by people in that thread. I only wanted to clarify what he teaches and how it affects our energies. They could not explain me anything and said to shut up. Often they mix qigong with another traditions theories, teach meds and "astral journeys". This is problem with qigong and yoga that we know in the West..

Stillness is yin, movement is yang. Only yuan jing makes our shen yan. It like the fuel for a rocket. If you do not replenish your yuan jing your shen won't be yan but more yin. This is dangerous imho.

So I agree with that theory very much that it could be dangerous. But it depends on the certain qigong. Some of them do not use breath much or vigour movements. But these are not ming practices. They say one needs transmission for this. Not sure he- he but it might depend on the system egregor imho. If you do just something like callisthenics it won't replenish your yuan jing but only would desperse it bc you do physical movements even if it relaxes you. Even if you heal somebody with qi it might deplete your jing.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Antares

[Antares]

I am not sure about physical immortallity. May be it's only symbolical meaning of the stage of transformation. Far from where I am now

[dawei]

That's what Teacher Of Single Yang describes as: "the sitting gives rise to yin, and yin leads to the death."

 

In your opinion: Are there any meditations which give rise to Yang? Or employ Yang?

 

There are so many meditations and plenty which are internal movements; whether full body circulations, breathing through gates (crown, hands, feet), the variations on MCO, beating and turning the drum (LDT), filling the LDT from the crown (Yang) in preparation for breaking the cords and fusing with Yin, sensitivity training , etc...

[Vitalii]

Qiu Changchun in 丘長春真人秘傳大丹直指 said:

能奪天地之真氣，可以長生。”早晨于高處，向日靜坐，存想太陽包羅吾身，連身化為太陽

 

早晨 - early morning 高處 - high place

 

向 - to turn towards 日 - sun

靜坐 - sitting in a motionless calmness and silence / meditation

 

存想 - concentration of mind on something / to keep thinking 太陽 - sun / sunshine / = solar energy = Yang Qi

 

[Tarmander]

 

In your opinion: Are there any meditations which give rise to Yang? Or employ Yang?

 

There are so many meditations and plenty which are internal movements; whether full body circulations, breathing through gates (crown, hands, feet), the variations on MCO, beating and turning the drum (LDT), filling the LDT from the crown (Yang) in preparation for breaking the cords and fusing with Yin, sensitivity training , etc...

I think this was the whole issue. The only yang meditations are apart of the super secret club O.o

[opendao]

存想 - concentration of mind on something / to keep thinking 太陽 - sun / sunshine / = solar energy = Yang Qi

 

LOL

 

No, it's not Yang we're talking about. Maybe you think that Yang Shen is "sunny spirit" then? C'mon

 

In your opinion: Are there any meditations which give rise to Yang? Or employ Yang?

 

There are so many meditations and plenty which are internal movements; whether full body circulations, breathing through gates (crown, hands, feet), the variations on MCO, beating and turning the drum (LDT), filling the LDT from the crown (Yang) in preparation for breaking the cords and fusing with Yin, sensitivity training , etc...

 

That's all is just using Post Heaven Qi. Rise of Yang will appear only if you replenish Yuan Jing. And it cannot be done through any meditation technique, Dao Yin or Qigong.

 

Btw, humans don't have LDT, so there is no "drum" to turn until you create it.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Sitting "on end" for ages, rather than getting clear and standing up, sure, makes sense that it would be excess yin, and the students of Single Yang would know how unguided some of the prevalent sitting practices were when people heard "just sit," without a master there to explain more.

 

Remember that people were rarely ever able to have a broad study of the texts like people do today, when distribution and literacy levels are at least 3 times higher. The chances of someone coming across the proper teachings in writing was very rare, especially before these masters had written or published their literary works.

 

So, the assumption was that people were "just" sitting when not instructed by the proper teachings, which most people were not even able to understand in writing because they weren't able to have a broad reading of the development of those ideas, nor had these teachers written, trying to explain the teachings a bit more than the last written text. Without the knowledge of HOW to sit, the Sitters wouldn't learn much.

 

This isn't to say that one HAS to sit, but let's not take quotations out of context and fear monger about sitting and chi gung.

 

Besides, whoever's writing, how do you know that your teacher's giving you the "secret" which may or may not involve stabilized sitting? If the Chinese Wuxian Daoists (who I believe you inadvertently referred to as racists earlier) wouldn't share their knowledge with you, what makes you so certain you're receiving it?

Edited November 22, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

That's all is just using Post Heaven Qi. Rise of Yang will appear only if you replenish Yuan Jing. And it cannot be done through any meditation technique, Dao Yin or Qigong.

 

Ok... yes... post Heaven Qi... I should of asked if that is Post Heaven Yang Qi ?

 

And I could guess but I'll just ask: You feeling is that no amount of Post Heaven Yang Qi will ever break the barrier of getting to Pre-Heaven Yang Qi, yes?

 

And so, the 'fusion of Yin and Yang' which is done as a method: Do you think that is fusion of Post-Heaven Qis? THis may be unfair as it is another method of another practice. Or your willing to accept that if it happens, then it must of accessed Pre-Heaven Qi somewhere along the lines (?)

 

 

Btw, humans don't have LDT, so there is no "drum" to turn until you create it.

 

Ok... and I can agree with that.

 

So I should ask, in your opinion, when is the LDT created? Is it only through the restoration of Yuan Jing process? Or there are other schools and methods which can create the LDT?

 

P.S. Daoyin and Qigong... I get it... you slipped that in there as a hint

[ChiDragon]

Vitalii:

Qiu Changchun in 丘長春真人秘傳大丹直指 said:

能奪天地之真氣，可以長生。”早晨于高處，向日靜坐，存想太陽包羅吾身，連身化為太陽

 

If one can capture the true energy from Heaven and Earth, then one can attain longevity. Go to attend a high place in the morning; and with a notion that the sun shines allover my body. Thus my body will be transformed and integrated with the sun.

 

How is that sound for the English speakers......???

 

 

Edited November 22, 2013 by ChiDragon

[opendao]

Just want to say -- I don't know what kinds of chi gung people are practicing that will deplete their yuan shen more than them simply living their lives as normal. Chi gung makes people more relaxed, peaceful, healthy, sometimes energetic. How would this deplete their original spirit?

 

And meditation as well. There's an idea here that nobody should practice sitting meditation because it will cause spermatorea and death. Sorry, but anyone who says that seems to have not even the slightest knowledge about anything to do with Taoist and Buddhist practices, both of which generally include lots and lots and lots (and sometimes more) of sitting meditation. Buddhists are not secretly walking around with dirty underpants and dying off in all the thousands of meditation halls around the world, and neither are Taoists. To make such a claim is far more discrediting than convincing.

 

I don't know much at all about secret neidan practices, but there are some serious flaws in the logic of these assertions which would be much better clarified.

 

You don't read carefully, and it makes your logic illogical.

 

1) meditation depletes Yuan Jing, not Shen

2) people die not during the meditation, but as usual (while sleeping for example)

3) meditation doesn't cause spermatorea

 

A lot of people think that they practice Dazuo, but what they do is just new-age meditation. Depending on their health and diligence in practice, they can live the entire life without any results and any visible impact. And most of the people are happy with that.