Neidan vs Qigong

[dawei]

I think this was the whole issue. The only yang meditations are apart of the super secret club O.o

 

I do understand the cynicism... but I think there is something to be learned here nonetheless.

[dawei]

能奪天地之真氣，可以長生。”早晨于高處，向日靜坐，存想太陽包羅吾身，連身化為太陽

 

If one can capture the true energy from Heaven and Earth, then one can attain longevity. Go to attend a high place in the morning; and with a notion that the sun shines allover my body. Thus my body will be transformed and integrated with the sun.

 

How is that sound for the English speakers......???

 

In terms of english, it sounds good... nice job. but there is no context or method explained for the purposes of the thread.

 

So, what is the relationship to this thread? So you have the actual method to share?

 

I can pull anything I want into here and translate it but it does not mean it is relevant to the thread.

 

Maybe there should be a thread to practice translations???

 

In closing, the english is good... again, nice job.

[dawei]

1) meditation depletes Yuan Jing, not Shen

2) people die not during the meditation, but as usual (while sleeping for example)

3) meditation doesn't cause spermatorea

 

A lot of people think that they practice Dazuo, but what they do is just new-age meditation. Depending on their health and diligence in practice, they can live the entire life without any results and any visible impact. And most of the people are happy with that.

 

To tie in what H.E. is asking... I would think the point is that everything we do depletes all our Yuan energies (Yuan Jing, Yuan, Qi, Yuan Shen)... it is only through some methods we can hope to restore, transmute, and re-gain what is lost.

 

As meditation is YIN:

1. Yuan JIng is therefore Yang... that is why it is depleted

2. Shen is Yin... therefore why it is not depleted

 

Yes?

 

What I still want to know is: If the meditation is involving internal movements, even if using Post-Heaven Qi... does it slow down the depletion? Although I can guess you'll say it does not 'restore'...

[opendao]

Sitting "on end" for ages, rather than getting clear and standing up, sure, makes sense that it would be excess yin, and the students of Single Yang would know how unguided some of the prevalent sitting practices were when people heard "just sit," without a master there to explain more.

 

Remember that people were rarely ever able to have a broad study of the texts like people do today, when distribution and literacy levels are at least 3 times higher. The chances of someone coming across the proper teachings in writing was very rare, especially before these masters had written or published their literary works.

 

So, the assumption was that people were "just" sitting when not instructed by the proper teachings, which most people were not even able to understand in writing because they weren't able to have a broad reading of the development of those ideas, nor had these teachers written, trying to explain the teachings a bit more than the last written text. Without the knowledge of HOW to sit, the Sitters wouldn't learn much.

 

No, the body is unbalanced to Yin side if you do Dazuo properly. If you do it wrong, then it's out of scope, because it's not a serious approach. And you are right about past, so even in 20th century people achieved much more higher results with Dazuo, then we see now. Because they could learn it only from a teacher. Now it's gone, so basically a lot of people are practising wrong and with no Dazuo results, that are very evident. But I'm telling and quoting here is about correct Dazuo.

 

This isn't to say that one HAS to sit, but let's not take quotations out of context and fear monger about sitting and chi gung.

 

Besides, whoever's writing, how do you know that your teacher's giving you the "secret" which may or may not involve stabilized sitting? If the Chinese Wuxian Daoists (who I believe you inadvertently referred to as racists earlier) wouldn't share their knowledge with you, what makes you so certain you're receiving it?

 

"Racist" was my joke about your phrase about "White Russians". You missed that. Sorry, my English is "specific".

 

Things are changing and some traditional schools accept foreigners now. So there is a way. Then, after practice and learning the theory, you will be able to recognize, what is true and what is false. It's a science, not a religion.

[opendao]

I am not sure about physical immortallity. May be it's only symbolical meaning of the stage of transformation. Far from where I am now

 

I think it's better to "believe and not to believe at the same time". If we throw the physical immortality then many things are impossible to understand and achieve. But yes, the practical result is the last and only argument.

[opendao]

Which heaven are heavenly immortals a part of?

 

I think in Buddhism it's called "formless realm"

Edited November 22, 2013 by opendao

[opendao]

I took some time over the last day or so and read over many of the posts related to the apparent dispute between Vitalii and his detractors, as well as poking around on various websites and doing some Internet searches. While I certainly don't claim to be a "xing vs. ming" expert, I recognize a vendetta when I see one.

 

it's an old theme, and it won't stop soon. It's not a "vendetta" but things have to be balanced in the world. Like Yang and Yin.

[opendao]

It does not deplete yuan shen but yuan jing and even might strenghten yaun shen but then it would turn into yin-shen. For example dreaming. It depletes yuan jing they say. Everything we do depletes our yuan jing. And when one uses special breath or breath retention it might reduce yuan jing because of one would use his yuan jing imho. For example some people do some kind of breath which affects chakras. It might be not actual work with chakra but work with visualized chakra - you use your imagination and body fluids or vigour movents... but smooth motions might not deplete your yuan jing. Martial art do it bc they use power and jing. It depends. I had this experience and I understand this position. Few years ago I was "initiated " into yoga where I should concentrate on thr third eye. I was stupid having done it and I got problem with headache and I used to visit accupuncture doctor. Even now many teachers on this forum would teach you doing so. Recently I contacted a yoga teacher here with a query on yoga and he advised me some weird stuff like that and I said it was bad idea. He replied that I am emotionally unbalanced and not ready for good yoga. And Blah blah new age stuff. He said he wanted to help me. They would teach you this stuff with boon motives not realizing what they really teach. I have had this experience and I did this long sitting in buddhist meds and I had shift to the yin. I was really bad! I do nit buy it anymore. Also I asked a qigong teacher here on the TTB and it finished with that I was just abused by people in that thread. I only wanted to clarify what he teaches and how it affects our energies. They could not explain me anything and said to shut up. Often they mix qigong with another traditions theories, teach meds and "astral journeys". This is problem with qigong and yoga that we know in the West..

Stillness is yin, movement is yang. Only yuan jing makes our shen yan. It like the fuel for a rocket. If you do not replenish your yuan jing your shen won't be yan but more yin. This is dangerous imho.

So I agree with that theory very much that it could be dangerous. But it depends on the certain qigong. Some of them do not use breath much or vigour movements. But these are not ming practices. They say one needs transmission for this. Not sure he- he but it might depend on the system egregor imho. If you do just something like callisthenics it won't replenish your yuan jing but only would desperse it bc you do physical movements even if it relaxes you. Even if you heal somebody with qi it might deplete your jing.

 

very good post, thanks for sharing your experience and understanding.

 

It's very important for many people to get how usual practices work, experience their positive and negative sides. Then it's very easy to understand what Teacher Of Single Yang is talking about. If there is no experience, then it's hard.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

No, the body is unbalanced to Yin side if you do Dazuo properly. If you do it wrong, then it's out of scope, because it's not a serious approach. And you are right about past, so even in 20th century people achieved much more higher results with Dazuo, then we see now. Because they could learn it only from a teacher. Now it's gone, so basically a lot of people are practising wrong and with no Dazuo results, that are very evident. But I'm telling and quoting here is about correct Dazuo.

 

 

"Racist" was my joke about your phrase about "White Russians". You missed that. Sorry, my English is "specific".

 

Things are changing and some traditional schools accept foreigners now. So there is a way. Then, after practice and learning the theory, you will be able to recognize, what is true and what is false. It's a science, not a religion.

 

So then we can agree that there is correct and incorrect Dazuo?

 

 

I meant white Russians as in, not Chinese Russians. I don't know much about the Russian immigrant population, but I don't think I missed too many of the subcultures..

 

 

 

Antares,

 

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking the same thing, that maybe they were referring to martial/hard chi gongs. However, all chi gong practices were said, earlier, to reduce yuan jing. How could they do this more than walking down the street? And if walking down the street uses up yuan jing, then doing qi gong would make you do it in a way that uses up less of it.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[opendao]

Well to get one thing straight, if your goal is to be a heaven immortal which is basically the yang shen then follow neidan. Inquire into the people who main goal is that. But if you don't want that goal, then neidan is not for you.

 

Each method can be applied using a different intent. Each has its own functions.

 

The reason all of the other methods are considered wrong by those in this thread is because their main goal is to become a heaven immortal. So of course the other methods would be considered wrong because it doesn't give them what they want.

 

Yes, there are different goals and different ways in the world. But let's just name things properly and don't promise results that cannot be achieved on the ways. So when I say that some methods are wrong, it just means that they wrong for Neidan. Dazuo is good and correct as a preparatory practice (in some Neidan schools, in others they prefer other techniques), but it is wrong for all others Neidan stages. If somebody uses that for medical purposes or just "to relax" - it's fine. But then don't call it Neidan or Daoism and don't promise impossible for such practice results.

[opendao]

So then we can agree that there is correct and incorrect Dazuo?

 

yes, + "very incorrect Dazuo"

But still even very correct Dazuo is not a part of Neidan

Edited November 22, 2013 by opendao

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Are you just being lyrical, or are you saying that there is no sitting or (zhuan zhang) standing during (the) Neidan meditation (that you are being taught)?

 

I would have to assume that the practice would be more towards not accumulating karma or something of that effect, if none of this was part of it.

 

Harmonic frequencies with the planets maybe?

 

 

[dawei]

Are you just being lyrical, or are you saying that there is no sitting or (zhuan zhang) standing during (the) Neidan meditation (that you are being taught)?

 

I think he said there is both... correct and incorrect.

 

Correct for some practice to just do it... for that practice and some results may follow according to that practice.

 

Incorrect if this was intended for Neigong Ming vs Xing as he relates.

[LaoZiDao]

Qiu Changchun in 丘長春真人秘傳大丹直指 said:

能奪天地之真氣，可以長生。”早晨于高處，向日靜坐，存想太陽包羅吾身，連身化為太陽

 

早晨 - early morning 高處 - high place

 

向 - to turn towards 日 - sun

靜坐 - sitting in a motionless calmness and silence / meditation

 

存想 - concentration of mind on something / to keep thinking 太陽 - sun / sunshine / = solar energy = Yang Qi

 

Man, you offer nothing to the thread with such posts

[dawei]

Man, you offer nothing to the thread with such posts

 

So, instead of throwing barbs... why not just offer more to the thread?

 

If you just belittle another, what is gained ? The ego gets a feather?

 

You have lots of valuable input but when you degrade the post to attacks then it is really turning the wheel around on some level.

 

Just give us more useful posts.

[LaoZiDao]

So, instead of throwing barbs... why not just offer more to the thread?

 

If you just belittle another, what is gained ? The ego gets a feather?

 

You have lots of valuable input but when you degrade the post to attacks then it is really turning the wheel around on some level.

 

Just give us more useful posts.

 

It's a fair statement, as I clicked "post" I had a feeling this would come back to bite me

 

[LaoZiDao]

And it cannot be done through any meditation technique, Dao Yin or Qigong.

 

 

Can you (and anyone else) explain their understanding of what Dao Yin is?

[dawei]

 

It's a fair statement, as I clicked "post" I had a feeling this would come back to bite me

 

 

It is all good... as I would like to hear more from you... I have yet to find something I disagree with

 

And your response tells me there is a tip of the iceberg revealed so far.... the depths have not been fully shared yet

[dawei]

Can you (and anyone else) explain their understanding of what Dao Yin is?

 

Daoyin is one of the most ancient movement exercises documented in pottery and silk... Originally it was a kind of dance or movement but it was found necessary as the yellow basin produced lethargy and water in the joints.

 

This is maybe the birth of teaching how to 'move the Qi'...

 

 

[TAXICAT]

There is so much explaining of what nei dan isn't, but zero outline of what it is. Forums are weird. Why is this 14 pages of nothing?

[ChiDragon]

We still just don't know....!!!
Perhaps it was not properly translated into the English format.

Edited November 22, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Vitalii]

yes, + "very incorrect Dazuo"

But still even very correct Dazuo is not a part of Neidan

 

 

Zhonglí Quan in Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) said about Alchemy work during sitting cross-legged [盘膝坐] in a motionless calmness and silence [静坐 - Jing zuo = meditation]:

 

1) "是以日出当用艮卦之时，以养元气。

勿以利名动其心，勿以好恶介其意。

披衣静坐，以养其气；

绝念忘情，微作引导。

手脚递互，伸缩三五下，使四体之气齐生，内保元气上升以朝于心府"

 

2) "又于日入当用干卦之时，以聚元气。

入室静坐，咽气搐外肾"

 

3) "行金液还丹，当于深密幽房，风日凡人不到之处，烧香迭掌盘膝坐"

 

4) "终日静坐，其炼如前"

 

5) "静坐忘机以行此法"

 

6) http://thetaobums.com/topic/32430-neidan-vs-qigong/page-6#entry494646

Edited November 22, 2013 by Vitalii

[Antares]

Antares,

 

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking the same thing, that maybe they were referring to martial/hard chi gongs. However, all chi gong practices were said, earlier, to reduce yuan jing. How could they do this more than walking down the street? And if walking down the street uses up yuan jing, then doing qi gong would make you do it in a way that uses up less of it.

 

No, not all of them. But it is only my opinion that the more one does qigong the more that person will be "attached" to the post heaven reality bc it will nourish yin-shen. Let' see what happens next. Next person begin to meditate. He-she stops thoughts and does out of body experience or dreaming or smth like that. If there is no real yaun jing your spirit will be more yin. They say that gui is yin and xiang is yan and man is mix of yin and yan. But if you do more sitting, stopping thoughts you will naturally shift onto yin imho. Bc you have no real fuel for more higher experience.

 

What is yuan jing? I dunno but I know it is our "karmic" fuel what we get from our "ancestral lineage" and from Tao when we are born. You can nourish your post heaven jing but not "ancestral". It's connected with some qi channels in our energy body. Normal human being has it blocked bc of psychic and physical traumas - "karma" and bc of not harmonious way of life. It's blocked and we loose connection to the "battery" and loose our qi and getting older. In qigong we probably can connect to Tao which is yuan qi but it's not connection to the yuan jing imho. This is the secret of neidan how to reconnect to the battery which nourishes our body fuel. I only can guess and I have only idea but it's not practical yet for me. I do not say that only Wu Lui Pai knows this method and I do not know if they have. But this is definitely not sitting as sitting for itself can not impact these channels which open up those channels. Just from body and energetic structure aspects it won't affect those channels and can even block it more. IMHO.

In IMA there might be a method how to nourish yuan jing but this method is lost in many schools and that' why everything they do is development of post heaven mind and body and power but the more vigorous movements the more leakage of yuan jing. If you do slow mindful movements it will deplete your yuan jing as well but slower. But this this would not be replenishment of your yuan jing. The less visualizations and vigorous body and breath usage the slower leakage of yuan jing but it's not neidan but work with post heaven mind. Then one would practice "astral journeys" and so on wasting more yuan jing nourishing houtian yin-shen turning person to hui-xiang. Xiang-tian is higher level journeys to the higher realms through the crown of the head.

The problem is qigong people mix it with buddhist doctrines and teach people astral journeys with no authentic yuan jing method. That' dangerous and that what they say it was not practiced in authentic taoist sects as well as Dazuo as neidan methods. Boddhidhrama was doing it at the final stage of his practice in the cave. But this was at the end of his alchemy practice on the final stage of alchemy. But those methods are lost and turned into many qigong styles which you can find now in China and Korea. I described my experience with buddhist and yoga meditations. I did it for few years not realizing what I was doing and I wondered why I did "spiritual" methods and was no feeling good at all. I was even tired after waking up. I had dark circles under eyes. And then I found authentic theory that it was yin practices. But I have to admit I had no authentic teacher in Taoism. What you can find now in the West is qigong methods but they do not care how that' stuff is authentic. If you start asking them they will piss you off man. I had IMA teacher for few years and I asked him about yuan jing and he said it bull shit and that those taoist just wanted my money and that he knew his stuff he taught - taichi, aikido, qigong. NO ONE got any results under his supervision for few years. I realized it was diluted taichi from he taught in the US and some diluted martial qigong. I lost even more yuan jing than many others who did not do anything like that. They just learned something from their teachers and then they want to sell it to you as they think that they spent money and time and it's time to get benefits out of it. That teacher said to me few times that he spent money in US for this and that why his stuff is good. Unfortunately this is the logic of qigong people. They want to sell what they bought from their teachers but no one cares hoe it is authentic.

[Mal]

 

This is maybe the birth of teaching how to 'move the Qi'...

 

Energy in motion

 

 

and from the same page this one titled "Heel Daoyin" !

[Starjumper]

Well said, Antares. The thing is, only one in a thousand (or one in ten thousand in the land of the poisoned) really want to do a nei kung system for the long run, and it's a really long run, so I think even legitimate teachers of nei kung turn to offering simplistic wimpy chi kung (what most people really want) in order to make a living. Those that don't need to do it for a living are very selective of who they teach ... or they accept any student and just wait till the student flakes out before they show them anything secret, which usually doesn't take long.

 

I can teach real nei kung but it would require someone to live in a remote part of Southern Ecuador for years, so basically I'm not teaching it. Yet.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Starjumper