Lone Wolf and Cub - Kozure Ōkami

[Nungali]

Do you disagree with these things then?

 

Tree of Bad Manners

1. al-ghadab – anger: considered the worst of all the negative traits. It may easily be said that anger is the source from which the others flow. The Prophet states in a hadith: "Anger (ghadab) blemishes one's belief." Controlling anger is called kāzm.
2. al-hiqd – malice or having ill-will toward others; grows from lusting for what someone else has. You must replace hiqd with kindness and look upon your brother with love. There is a tradition that says "give gifts to one another, for gifts take away malice."

edit: quoted from that wiki. I have no knowledge of this topic

 

You left out Hasad - envy

[Nungali]

A typical exhibition of Nafs. A true Samurai never speaks like this as he understands the true meaning of Budo.

 

.

But I am not a 'true Samurai'.

 

My tradition does come from a Samurai however ... but there are no more left.

 

People can pretend to be a Samurai … or follow what they perceive as the Samurai Code …. Or try to emulate a Samurai, but the fact is …. They are all gone.

 

And, I might add, my tradition came from the LAST Samurai. Through only two other people and then me. I mean ; The last Samurai … his student …. Then his student … and then me.

 

But because the tradition had ended, it is not the tradition he taught but ‘Seito’ his family tradition … as the social class tradition of Samurai had ended.

 

“Hohan Soken (1889-1982) some say Hohan Soken was truly the last Samurai. This is also

noted in the Ripley's Belief it or not. He was born a samurai and was known as the oldest

living karate master. He began his training under his Uncle Nabe Matsumura at the age of

13. After 10 years of training he began learning the White Crane system, where he had

performed the kata “Hakutsuru” on a board floating in water. The white crane style and

the shorin-ryu style provide the soft and the delicate movements of the bird with the

balance and defensive moves of man to provide a balanced training. Hohan Soken had

several well-noted students, one of which is Yoshimatsu Akamine Sensei, who is now

considered to be the head of the Matsumura Shorin-ryu style of karate “

 

http://www.goldendragonkarateschool.com/history.html

 

Also google ; Hohan Soken - many entries listed.

 

Do not have Hasad.

.

[Nungali]

If Nafs is developed just as in your case, you enter a way to be a monster in the form of a human. I wish you a great success in your path.

 

If anyone is purifying his/her Nafs (Tazkiah - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazkiah), that means he/she is working to purify his/her Nafs stage by stage. You had heard the term Nafs first time in your life from my posts in this forum. Yet, you only heard of it. You are not in a situation to understand the "tazkiyah al-nafs" in this life time. May be next life time.

My Sufi teacher taught me about Nafs before I ever met you ... however thank you for your 'particular view' on this subject <bows>

 

If you would like to discuss' Nafs' with me or 'Tazkiah ' or my 'biography' ; the books of virtues and vices (which, I thought was a rather funny pun ..... 7/10 for that one ) or sword technique (if you can excuse my ignorance of Japanese language and terms) , that is fine but perhaps open another thread for that?

 

Thankyou.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Nungali

[Mark Foote]

Thanks, Nungali, for your expertise on this matter. Over my head, but I appreciate your description. You wouldn't happen to know of a link to any film footage of Ueshiba just twirling the jo overhead? Saw one a long time ago, and just twirling a jo like a baton is a lot of fun for me sometimes; there's footage of Ueshiba doing the moves shown in the movie you posted (that's his son, right?), but I've never seen the film of him just spinning a jo overhead again.

 

Isimsiz Biri, I used to go hear Kobun Chino Otogawa lecture, he once described his master as a monster, and said he was only in the U.S.A. to allow people to cross over his back and meet his master; I think that's how he put it.

[Nungali]

.

I did not think that was his son. The son I know of is Kisshomaru.

 

A series of those Jo Suburi start with an overhead twirling motion. To see 'Ueshiba' twirling over the head ... continuously, perhaps a thorough internet search ? Good luck , I don't recall that - but I haven't seen that much footage. My Kobudo teacher disdained such moves ... but he was combat based ... perhaps for use as warm up or 'drill' ?

'

Not all 'Masters' or Sensai are 'nice people' ... some can be irresponsible or suffer from lack of balanced 'inner development' . One Okinawan 'Master' boasted of defeating another by jumping out of a tree onto the others neck and breaking it. Funokoshi took karate to Japan under rather unusual and strange conditions ... with little inside knowledge, however he was a thorough gentleman . One can hardly imagine Funokoshi climbing a tree let alone jumping out of it onto someone's back to break their neck!

.

[Isimsiz Biri]

.

But I am not a 'true Samurai'.

 

My tradition does come from a Samurai however ... but there are no more left.

 

People can pretend to be a Samurai … or follow what they perceive as the Samurai Code …. Or try to emulate a Samurai, but the fact is …. They are all gone.

 

And, I might add, my tradition came from the LAST Samurai. Through only two other people and then me. I mean ; The last Samurai … his student …. Then his student … and then me.

 

But because the tradition had ended, it is not the tradition he taught but ‘Seito’ his family tradition … as the social class tradition of Samurai had ended.

 

“Hohan Soken (1889-1982) some say Hohan Soken was truly the last Samurai. This is also

noted in the Ripley's Belief it or not. He was born a samurai and was known as the oldest

living karate master. He began his training under his Uncle Nabe Matsumura at the age of

13. After 10 years of training he began learning the White Crane system, where he had

performed the kata “Hakutsuru” on a board floating in water. The white crane style and

the shorin-ryu style provide the soft and the delicate movements of the bird with the

balance and defensive moves of man to provide a balanced training. Hohan Soken had

several well-noted students, one of which is Yoshimatsu Akamine Sensei, who is now

considered to be the head of the Matsumura Shorin-ryu style of karate “

 

http://www.goldendragonkarateschool.com/history.html

 

Also google ; Hohan Soken - many entries listed.

 

Do not have Hasad.

.

 

There is a tendency or a real effort in Nungali not to understand my posts. Really interesting. I referred to

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morihei_Ueshiba#Development_of_aikido.

 

The real birth of Aikido came as the result of three instances of spiritual awakening that Ueshiba experienced. The first happened in 1925, after Ueshiba had defeated a naval officer's bokken (wooden katana) attacks unarmed and without hurting the officer. Ueshiba then walked to his garden and had a spiritual awakening.

... I felt the universe suddenly quake, and that a golden spirit sprang up from the ground, veiled my body, and changed my body into a golden one. At the same time my body became light. I was able to understand the whispering of the birds, and was clearly aware of the mind of God, the creator of the universe.

At that moment I was enlightened: the source of budo is God's love – the spirit of loving protection for all beings ...

Budo is not the felling of an opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world to destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect and cultivate all beings in nature.[23]

His second experience occurred in 1940 when,

"Around 2am as I was performing misogi, I suddenly forgot all the martial techniques I had ever learned. The techniques of my teachers appeared completely new. Now they were vehicles for the cultivation of life, knowledge, and virtue, not devices to throw people with."[24]

His third experience was in 1942 during the worst fighting of WWII, Ueshiba had a vision of the "Great Spirit of Peace".[2]

"The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter – it is the Art of Peace, the power of love."[25]

Does Morihei Ueshiba talk like you? Does Hohan Soken talk like you?

I do not think so.

[Isimsiz Biri]

My Sufi teacher taught me about Nafs before I ever met you ... however thank you for your 'particular view' on this subject <bows>

 

If you would like to discuss' Nafs' with me or 'Tazkiah ' or my 'biography' ; the books of virtues and vices (which, I thought was a rather funny pun ..... 7/10 for that one ) or sword technique (if you can excuse my ignorance of Japanese language and terms) , that is fine but perhaps open another thread for that?

 

Thankyou.

 

 

Previously you had told:

 

"You are torturing earth bound spirits of that graveyard in order to satisfy your Nafs which is already strong." (by Isimsiz Biri)

 

I do not know what you mean by that word as my ignorant and limited understanding of the Koran has not led me to understand what the Nafs actually is, so I am not sure what you mean by that; do you mean a general concept of the self, my psyche generally and all of its parts as some type of undefined conglomerate, perhaps you mean my ego … but in what sense of ego, the modern western sense , the new age sense, Freudian meaning , or the soul.

I assume you mean my Nafs is in an unrefined state? My ego is as some understand it as a base consciousness. Or do you mean in its root form as ‘Nephesh’ or Nefesh … Nafesh … Nafs? A type of instinctual animal soul?

 

I guess you are saying I have a strong ego , in the negative sense

 

You already had confessed you did not understand what Nafs actually is when I first mentioned it to you. Obviously, your "Sufi teacher" (??) did not understand the concept of Nafs himself looking at your previous post.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Isimsiz Biri]

Isimsiz Biri, I used to go hear Kobun Chino Otogawa lecture, he once described his master as a monster, and said he was only in the U.S.A. to allow people to cross over his back and meet his master; I think that's how he put it.

 

I learnt about Kobun Chino Otogawa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobun_Chino_Otogawa), when I read Steve Jobs' biography as a comic book last year. Thank you for mentioning his master, Kodo Sawaki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodo_Sawaki), this is the first time I heard him. I have great respect for Zen Buddhism and when I say that I know numerous people get surprised since they visualize me as a member of Taliban. But to their dismay, I am not RongzomFan insulting other peoples' beliefs.

 

When I referred to monster, I describe a person who has attracted his/her Nafs onto himself/herself such that Nafs controls that person. In fact, one should control his/her Nafs not be controlled by Nafs. I am not sure Kobun Chino Otogawa's monster definition is similar to that.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Mark Foote]

Thanks to Nungali for the tidbits about the history of karate, I'm sure you're right about who was in that film.

 

Isimsiz Biri, actually I think Kobun meant that his teacher was so natural as to be super-natural. If that makes sense!

[Isimsiz Biri]

Isimsiz Biri, actually I think Kobun meant that his teacher was so natural as to be super-natural. If that makes sense!

It perfectly makes sense. If someone is aware that he is small, human, humble, he becomes super natural. Please refer to life of Rumi for instance.

[Mark Foote]

You are right that "making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of single-pointedness of mind"- that's a quote from the Pali Canon attributed to Gautama (who was later called the Buddha).

 

I'm a big fan of Rumi!

 

As to whether awareness of the small, human, and humble nature of one's circumstance in this life can cause a person to become supernatural, or almost supernatural- I don't know. I've had that awareness a number of times, I think, and for me it passes without resulting in any noticeable change to my monster/non-monster status. Ha ha, if you know what I mean!

 

Currently I'm convinced that monsters like Chino sensei, Kobun's master, appear supernatural because of their ability to fall upright into trance at every opportunity. My definition of trance is like that attributed to Milton Erickson in the Wikipedia post about him, where his induction of hypnosis in a subject during the course of a handshake is described:

 

"This induction works because shaking hands is one of the actions learned and operated as a single "chunk" of behavior; tying shoelaces is another classic example. If the behavior is diverted or frozen midway, the person literally has no mental space for this - he is stopped in the middle of unconsciously executing a behavior that hasn't got a "middle". The mind responds by suspending itself in trance until either something happens to give a new direction, or it "snaps out". A skilled hypnotist can often use that momentary confusion and suspension of normal processes to induce trance quickly and easily."

 

Erickson used self-hypnosis to overcome the pain he had everyday as a result of polio and other illnesses he had experienced; he said this about his use of hypnosis:

 

"I go into trances so that I will be more sensitive to the intonations and inflections of my patients' speech. And to enable me to hear better, see better."

 

He saw trance as an everyday occurrence:

 

"The same situation is in evidence in everyday life, however, whenever attention is fixated with a question or an experience of the amazing, the unusual, or anything that holds a person's interest. At such moments people experience the common everyday trance; they tend to gaze off to the right or left, depending upon which cerebral hemisphere is most dominant (Baleen, 1969) and get that faraway or blank look. Their eyes may actually close, their bodies tend to become immobile (a form of catalepsy), certain reflexes (e.g., swallowing, respiration, etc.) may be suppressed, and they seem momentarily oblivious to their surroundings until they have completed their inner search on the unconscious level for the new idea, response, or frames of reference that will restabilize their general reality orientation. We hypothesize that in everyday life consciousness is in a continual state of flux between the general reality orientation and the momentary microdynamics of trance..."

 

So I think the reason some masters appear to be monsters is that they are in touch with the dream-aspect of life through the induction of trance in themselves at every opportunity, which results in the sharpening of the senses that Erickson spoke of. In fact, they practice letting go of action and allowing the necessity of their circumstance move their bodies, a necessity which includes all the senses and even what is perceived in the senses but not necessarily manifest in consciousness.

 

They are faster than the normal person, in a slow sort of way- ha ha!

[Nungali]

Previously you had told:

 

 

You already had confessed you did not understand what Nafs actually is when I first mentioned it to you. Obviously, your "Sufi teacher" (??) did not understand the concept of Nafs himself looking at your previous post.

 

You did not read my post carefully:

 

I said ; “I do not know what you mean by that word “

 

I understand the concepts … I am not clear on your understanding of it – that is what I was asking.

 

I was also unclear about the concept as written in the Koran, as I have not studied it as you have.

 

However my teacher/s have explained the concept to me in many ways and showed me how the idea and concept developed. What I was seeking, with my detailed questions was what YOUR understanding of it was from YOUR reading of the Koran.

 

I asked you many questions to get a clearer idea of what you think about it but you chose to …. Answer in a ‘different way’ … rather agitated I thought.

 

Also note I asked you if you meant this; “perhaps you mean my ego?” and this “Or do you mean in its root form as ‘Nephesh’ or Nefesh … Nafesh … Nafs? A type of instinctual animal soul?

 

Please note – I asked this : “ Or do you mean in its root form as ‘Nephesh’ or Nefesh … Nafesh … Nafs? A type of instinctual animal soul?”

 

Do you agree with the Wikipedia definition of Nafs? “Nafs (نَفْس)is an Arabic word (cognate of the Hebrew word "Nefesh" נפש) which occurs in the Qur'an and means self, psyche, ego or soul. In its unrefined state, "the ego (nafs) is the lowest dimension of man's inward existence, his animal and satanic nature."

 

Yet, curiously, it also has divisions and is capable of evolution: The pure nafs (nafs-i-safiyya) On this level "one is dressed in the attributes of the Insan Kamil, the perfected man, who is completely surrendered and inspired by Allah." One is "in full agreement with the Will of Allah.”

 

How can this be ‘satanic nature’?

 

It is OK, I don’t expect an answer, I just include this here as an example of what I was getting at in my original questions to you … that you posted here from another thread (instead of answering these questions in that thread - but, whatever.

 

In my studies ( and I know you won.t agree with this … but they are academic studies from an eclectic religious perspective, not personal belief systems that I clutch and defend with an angry sword – sword is a symbol of the mind) I have found a path through the Levantine religions of similar concepts. Concepts of the soul and spirit and their qualities can be seen to have developed in Islam through Judaism and before that, in the original Levantine and monotheistic Zoroastrian religion.

 

“It is this divine current which really speaking is nufs, which means breath

or the ego.

Nufs (or nafs) is a term that the Sufis use rather loosely. We read in some

texts that they say nafs means breaths. In other texts we read they say nafs

means appetites. In other texts they say nafs means ego. What do they mean?

it is al of those things. But looking at them in different ways. First of

all nafs is the breath, because it is the life-force in us. We say what is

the life-force? We watch a person die and you watch them breathing, and then

there is a moment when they stop breathing. That is the moment when we

realise suddenly that person has gone, that soul has gone. The soul

experiences different kinds of breaths. That was the breath that took the

soul home. The soul is a breath-current, that is one meaning of nafs. The

second meaning is that nafs could mean ego, which is that because of your

consciousness the way you breathe determines what you think you are…. So we have

gone from the hungry nafs to the thinking nafs to the peaceful nafs. The

peaceful nafs will say ‘Not only am I at peace with the world, but I feel

peaceful. I am peaceful.’ The whole consciousness is very different. That

kind of person’s experience of themselves would be universal, cosmic, at

peace with everything.”

 

http://www.zoroastrian.org.uk/treader/?p=89

 

Now, compare to this:

 

“The pleased nafs (nafs-i-radiyya);

The stage comes after the 3rd principal stage. On this level "one is pleased with whatever comes from Allah and doesn’t live in the past or future, but in the moment." … "One thinks always: ‘Ilahi Anta Maqsudi wa ridhaka matlubi’. One always sees oneself as weak and in need of Allah." (Wikipedia)

 

[The reason I keep quoting Wikipedia is because you seem so fond of that source yourself.]

 

I could go on and write much more on the subject and how the concepts developed through times and cultures in the Levant and via monotheism and how so much of our Levantine theology and philosophy and core and root concepts has developed from Zoroastrian ideas and principles but do you really want to discuss this in a thread about a martial arts movie?

 

Especially a movie that has come from a magna comic ??? especially a movie that is described as this: “The one-year-old Daigorō is given a choice by his father: a ball or a sword. If Daigorō chose the ball, his father would kill him, sending Daigorō to be with his mother; however, the child crawls toward the sword and reaches for its hilt. This assigns him the path of a rōnin, wandering the country with his father as "demons"—the assassin-for-hire team that becomes known as Lone Wolf and Cub.” (Wikipedia ) And takes the ‘demon’ baby in a baby carriage with him?? (I too think it is a fun movie, but I would not base my life and practice on it)

 

And I am the uneducated one on the way to becoming a demon am I?

 

Thank you for your perspective <bows>

[Nungali]

 

There is a tendency or a real effort in Nungali not to understand my posts. Really interesting. I referred to

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morihei_Ueshiba#Development_of_aikido.

 

The real birth of Aikido came as the result of three instances of spiritual awakening that Ueshiba experienced. The first happened in 1925, after Ueshiba had defeated a naval officer's bokken (wooden katana) attacks unarmed and without hurting the officer. Ueshiba then walked to his garden and had a spiritual awakening.

... I felt the universe suddenly quake, and that a golden spirit sprang up from the ground, veiled my body, and changed my body into a golden one. At the same time my body became light. I was able to understand the whispering of the birds, and was clearly aware of the mind of God, the creator of the universe.

At that moment I was enlightened: the source of budo is God's love – the spirit of loving protection for all beings ...

Budo is not the felling of an opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world to destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect and cultivate all beings in nature.[23]

His second experience occurred in 1940 when,

"Around 2am as I was performing misogi, I suddenly forgot all the martial techniques I had ever learned. The techniques of my teachers appeared completely new. Now they were vehicles for the cultivation of life, knowledge, and virtue, not devices to throw people with."[24]

His third experience was in 1942 during the worst fighting of WWII, Ueshiba had a vision of the "Great Spirit of Peace".[2]

"The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter – it is the Art of Peace, the power of love."[25]

Does Morihei Ueshiba talk like you? Does Hohan Soken talk like you?

I do not think so.

 

In relation to " a tendency or a real effort ... not to understand my posts" - see my above post.

 

In relation to 'peaceful Aikido ' ... that developed AFTER it became apparent Japan was going to loose the war and be invaded by the Allied Forces, a 'tactical' move - see in depth and academic studies on the history of Aikido ( not ones written by Aikido societies ) ... I can find references to this if required.

 

In reference to the idea that sword arts or Samurai tradition is not about fighting or winning ... need I comment

 

In relation to the expression of peace and harmony that Aikido LATER developed, I am all for that ... however the techiques of true Aikido remain and can be seen in , for example, the very first Aikido Book published, where Master Ueshiba evades a sword blow and strikes into the eyes of the attacker with the ribs of his folded fan.

 

There has been large debate in martial arts academic circles re Aikido and about the translation of the word that became 'love' in English ... it seems to have been during the time of Kissomaru's (the son) reign when Allied forces were swarming through Japan and rooting out any remaining militia or 'dangerous' groups, cults or philosophies that much of the 'focus' of Aikido changed. It has good teachings today ... but it wasn't always like that ... and when it WAS like that , that is when it was more aligned with he 'Samurai' tradition. (You do realise that Aikido had strong links with rather obscure 'cults' and a rather fanatical political cult/party don't you? )

[Nungali]

My definition of trance is like that attributed to Milton Erickson in the Wikipedia post about him, where his induction of hypnosis in a subject during the course of a handshake is described:

 

"This induction works because shaking hands is one of the actions learned and operated as a single "chunk" of behavior; tying shoelaces is another classic example. If the behavior is diverted or frozen midway, the person literally has no mental space for this - he is stopped in the middle of unconsciously executing a behavior that hasn't got a "middle". The mind responds by suspending itself in trance until either something happens to give a new direction, or it "snaps out". A skilled hypnotist can often use that momentary confusion and suspension of normal processes to induce trance quickly and easily."

 

.... their bodies tend to become immobile (a form of catalepsy), certain reflexes (e.g., swallowing, respiration, etc.) may be suppressed, and they seem momentarily oblivious to their surroundings until they have completed their inner search on the unconscious level for the new idea, response, or frames of reference that will restabilize their general reality orientation. We hypothesize that in everyday life consciousness is in a continual state of flux between the general reality orientation and the momentary microdynamics of trance..."

 

They are faster than the normal person, in a slow sort of way- ha ha!

 

Very interesting post Mark. This is one of the skills of sword; to induce that state in another and is another variation of Ma’ai I spoke of earlier.

 

In a way, everything is secondary, when this ‘gap of awareness’ is detected or induced on the opponent THAT is when you really strike and cut them down.

 

“In terms of time, Maai pertains to the momentary lapses of awareness that are manifested in the opponent's mind. Extended further, it also embraces the concept of Kyo-jitsu (emptiness-fullness of Ki). These momentary lapses of mind, and Kyo-jitsu, we may call the 'kokoro-no-maai' (mental interval). The implication of kokoro-no-maai is that although the physical distance between opponents may be mutually advantageous, the mental interval possessed by individuals will determine who will have the decisive advantage” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maai

 

This gap in concentration or ‘lapse of mind’ can be induced by projection. Or it can be detected within the gaps of ‘fighting rhythm’ (the ‘ho-ha-ho-ho’ patterns that some speak of, like Mushahsi )

 

I have managed to project it a few times and induce it in others … it has been to me a few times too – it is quiet ‘embarrassing’ … WTF happened, I’m dead ?????

 

A good demonstration of it in Kendo once – a friend’s teacher (very good at Kendo ) went in a competition, the students and their friends went to watch him win as he is very good. During one match, after some preliminaries, he just stood there and the opponent moved in easily and quiet slowly and killed him with little effort, Everyone was stunned and teacher was led away (this happens at times … one has a ‘sword death’ and becomes ‘psychically stunned’ one mat need assistance until recovered it is quiet a spiritual experience in retrospect (followed by WTF happened, I am dead ??? )

 

Anyway, later the students asked teacher what happened. “I don’t know,” he said. “he vanished for a moment … he disappeared, I couldn’t see him.”

 

Of course, he didn’t vanish, we could all see him ….. projected 'kokoro-no-maai'.

 

On this level, your “faster than the normal person, in a slow sort of way” makes perfect sense and illuminates the saying “It is not speed but timing that wins.”

[Isimsiz Biri]

You did not read my post carefully:

 

I said ; “I do not know what you mean by that word “

 

I understand the concepts … I am not clear on your understanding of it – that is what I was asking.

 

I was also unclear about the concept as written in the Koran, as I have not studied it as you have.

 

However my teacher/s have explained the concept to me in many ways and showed me how the idea and concept developed. What I was seeking, with my detailed questions was what YOUR understanding of it was from YOUR reading of the Koran.

 

I asked you many questions to get a clearer idea of what you think about it but you chose to …. Answer in a ‘different way’ … rather agitated I thought.

 

Also note I asked you if you meant this; “perhaps you mean my ego?” and this “Or do you mean in its root form as ‘Nephesh’ or Nefesh … Nafesh … Nafs? A type of instinctual animal soul?

 

Please note – I asked this : “ Or do you mean in its root form as ‘Nephesh’ or Nefesh … Nafesh … Nafs? A type of instinctual animal soul?”

 

Do you agree with the Wikipedia definition of Nafs? “Nafs (نَفْس)is an Arabic word (cognate of the Hebrew word "Nefesh" נפש) which occurs in the Qur'an and means self, psyche, ego or soul. In its unrefined state, "the ego (nafs) is the lowest dimension of man's inward existence, his animal and satanic nature."

 

Yet, curiously, it also has divisions and is capable of evolution: The pure nafs (nafs-i-safiyya) On this level "one is dressed in the attributes of the Insan Kamil, the perfected man, who is completely surrendered and inspired by Allah." One is "in full agreement with the Will of Allah.”

 

How can this be ‘satanic nature’?

 

It is OK, I don’t expect an answer, I just include this here as an example of what I was getting at in my original questions to you … that you posted here from another thread (instead of answering these questions in that thread - but, whatever.

 

In my studies ( and I know you won.t agree with this … but they are academic studies from an eclectic religious perspective, not personal belief systems that I clutch and defend with an angry sword – sword is a symbol of the mind) I have found a path through the Levantine religions of similar concepts. Concepts of the soul and spirit and their qualities can be seen to have developed in Islam through Judaism and before that, in the original Levantine and monotheistic Zoroastrian religion.

 

“It is this divine current which really speaking is nufs, which means breath

or the ego.

Nufs (or nafs) is a term that the Sufis use rather loosely. We read in some

texts that they say nafs means breaths. In other texts we read they say nafs

means appetites. In other texts they say nafs means ego. What do they mean?

it is al of those things. But looking at them in different ways. First of

all nafs is the breath, because it is the life-force in us. We say what is

the life-force? We watch a person die and you watch them breathing, and then

there is a moment when they stop breathing. That is the moment when we

realise suddenly that person has gone, that soul has gone. The soul

experiences different kinds of breaths. That was the breath that took the

soul home. The soul is a breath-current, that is one meaning of nafs. The

second meaning is that nafs could mean ego, which is that because of your

consciousness the way you breathe determines what you think you are…. So we have

gone from the hungry nafs to the thinking nafs to the peaceful nafs. The

peaceful nafs will say ‘Not only am I at peace with the world, but I feel

peaceful. I am peaceful.’ The whole consciousness is very different. That

kind of person’s experience of themselves would be universal, cosmic, at

peace with everything.”

 

http://www.zoroastrian.org.uk/treader/?p=89

 

Now, compare to this:

 

“The pleased nafs (nafs-i-radiyya);

The stage comes after the 3rd principal stage. On this level "one is pleased with whatever comes from Allah and doesn’t live in the past or future, but in the moment." … "One thinks always: ‘Ilahi Anta Maqsudi wa ridhaka matlubi’. One always sees oneself as weak and in need of Allah." (Wikipedia)

 

[The reason I keep quoting Wikipedia is because you seem so fond of that source yourself.]

 

I could go on and write much more on the subject and how the concepts developed through times and cultures in the Levant and via monotheism and how so much of our Levantine theology and philosophy and core and root concepts has developed from Zoroastrian ideas and principles but do you really want to discuss this in a thread about a martial arts movie?

 

Especially a movie that has come from a magna comic ??? especially a movie that is described as this: “The one-year-old Daigorō is given a choice by his father: a ball or a sword. If Daigorō chose the ball, his father would kill him, sending Daigorō to be with his mother; however, the child crawls toward the sword and reaches for its hilt. This assigns him the path of a rōnin, wandering the country with his father as "demons"—the assassin-for-hire team that becomes known as Lone Wolf and Cub.” (Wikipedia ) And takes the ‘demon’ baby in a baby carriage with him?? (I too think it is a fun movie, but I would not base my life and practice on it)

 

And I am the uneducated one on the way to becoming a demon am I?

 

Thank you for your perspective <bows>

 

Ask your Sufi teacher (I doubt whether he exists). Or You better ask your Aborigine teacher. Or you better ask your Okinawan Karate and Kobudo teacher. Or you better ask RongzomFan. Or you better look at yourself in the mirror.

 

Just for readers of this meaningless discussion, do not be misled by Nungali's usage of certain words. He uses them completely out of context. "Levantine" is the most recent one.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levantine

Levantine may refer to

-Anything pertaining to the Levant

-Levantines (Latin Christians), Levantines, Franco-Levantines, or Latin-Levantines, Italian Levantine, Latin -Christians who lived under the Ottoman Empire or in the modern Middle East.

-Levantine cuisine, the cuisine of the Levant

The Italian speaking Christian minority living in Istanbul and Izmir in Turkey are Levantines. It also refers to Syria but not to Iran and Zoroastrianism. Not at all.

Also, the link he gives discusses Hazrat Inayat Khan's breath techniques.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inayat_Khan

Hazrat Inayat Khan was not Zoroastrian. As far as I know, he was Muslim.

The breath techniques of Inayat Khan comes from Vedic sources of India, I attended a course three times about these breath techniques (seven breath techniques)

http://www.yukunc.org.tr/ContentDetail.aspx?SM=1&cid=22

As always, Nungali does not know anything about these breath techniques. He just confuses minds as his mind is also confused, a chop suey.

These breath techniques are useful for health but not for purification of Nafs. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazkiah)

I strongly recommend everybody Ki Breath of Koichi Tohei. The same health benefits of Hazrat Inayat Khan's breath techniques can also be obtained by Ki Breath. Ki Breath is much more simple and you can learn it by yourself.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Nungali]

Firstly you seem to have a problem with me having more than one teacher and learning about more than one culture. A few times I have read remarks from you that seem to suggest you have an issue with aboriginals or at least the fact that one of my teachers is an aboriginal – be careful there.

 

As usual you pick on one or two meanings you don’t understand and run to Wikipedia to disprove, while ignoring the many ‘meaty’ parts and significnace of the ‘opposing’ posts.

 

That does not matter as your criticisms of these minor points are easily refuted.

 

By Levantine religion I mean the religions that is or has been extant in that region. Let us look at what you looked at in wiki ( as you only quoted part of that – the part that you think supports your case)

 

 

1. “,Anything pertaining to the Levant” (and this alone should qualify the usage of that term)

 

2. “Levantines (Latin Christians), Levantines, Franco-Levantines, or Latin-Levantines, Italian Levantine, Latin Christians who lived under the Ottoman Empire or in the modern Middle East.

 

3. Levantine cuisine, the cuisine of the Levant

 

Looking up Levant ( 1.); “ Precise definitions have varied over time, and the term originally had a broader and less well-defined usage. The Levant has been described as the "crossroads of western Asia, the eastern Mediterranean and northeast Africa".

 

Yoy seem to think I invented the word ?

 

“History; The term became current in English in the 16th century, along with the first English merchant adventurers in the region; English ships appeared in the Mediterranean in the 1570s, and the English merchant company signed its agreement ("capitulations") with the Grand Turk in 1579”

 

And also;

 

“In 19th-century archaeology, it referred to overlapping cultures in this region during and after prehistoric times, intending to reference the place instead of any one culture.”

 

Also from wiki

 

“Overlapping regional designations; Fertile Crescent, Mesopotamia, Near East and Middle East,

Western Asia.”

 

But if that is not good enough for you I will amend my definition (and make my words even LONGER for you) to

 

" Levantine and Zorosatrian religions and their cultural and regional influences" . Is that better?

 

{Anyone who has studied the subject realises the huge input into Judaism and Islam from Zoroastrianism … most of Judaism was not formulated until AFTER the Mesopotamian influence.}

 

The link I gave to the breath techniques is from a Zoroastrian website … ( but you relinked him to wiki) so what if he is Moslem or not? Cannot Zoroastrins partake of the wisdom and learning of other cultures and religions? Or should we disdain them for that and call them chop suey ?

 

In any case, what is wrong with chop suey anyway? I think I will look the word up on your favourite site; Wikipedia -

 

“ Chop suey has become a prominent part of American Chinese cuisine, Filipino cuisine, Canadian Chinese cuisine, German Chinese cuisine, Indian Chinese cuisine, and Polynesian cuisine. In Indonesian Chinese cuisine it is known as cap cai (雜菜, "mixed vegetables") and mainly consists of vegetables.”

 

" Chop suey is widely believed to have been invented in America by Chinese Americans, but the anthropologist E.N. Anderson concludes that the dish is based on tsap seui ... it began life as a good if humble dish among the specialist vegetable farmers of the area. At the end of the day, they would stir-fry the small shoots, thinnings, and unsold vegetables—up to ten species in a dish!” The Hong Kong doctor Li Shu-fan likewise reported that he knew it in Toisan in the 1890s.

 

I am proud to be associated with a healthy mix of vegetables , a ‘good and humble dish’ of farmers and something that can nourish American, Chinese, Filipino, Canadian, German, Indian, Polynesian and Indonesian .

 

However I do not appear palatable to the Turkish taste … for some reason.

 

I agree with you that Ki Breath of Koichi Tohei is good to practice and good for health … I wasn’t trying to say otherwise.

 

As usual I think you missed the logical thread and responses of my argument.

 

 

Edit: Also, I think many people here realise that breath and regularisation or 'de-patterning' and 're-patterning' of it can effect changes in consciousness and spirit.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Nungali

[Brian]

However I do not appear palatable to the Turkish taste … for some reason.

 

You can come sit on the Group W bench with me...

[Isimsiz Biri]

Firstly you seem to have a problem with me having more than one teacher and learning about more than one culture. A few times I have read remarks from you that seem to suggest you have an issue with aboriginals or at least the fact that one of my teachers is an aboriginal – be careful there.

 

As usual you pick on one or two meanings you don’t understand and run to Wikipedia to disprove, while ignoring the many ‘meaty’ parts and significnace of the ‘opposing’ posts.

 

That does not matter as your criticisms of these minor points are easily refuted.

 

By Levantine religion I mean the religions that is or has been extant in that region. Let us look at what you looked at in wiki ( as you only quoted part of that – the part that you think supports your case)

 

 

1. “,Anything pertaining to the Levant” (and this alone should qualify the usage of that term)

 

2. “Levantines (Latin Christians), Levantines, Franco-Levantines, or Latin-Levantines, Italian Levantine, Latin Christians who lived under the Ottoman Empire or in the modern Middle East.

 

3. Levantine cuisine, the cuisine of the Levant

 

Looking up Levant ( 1.); “ Precise definitions have varied over time, and the term originally had a broader and less well-defined usage. The Levant has been described as the "crossroads of western Asia, the eastern Mediterranean and northeast Africa".

 

Yoy seem to think I invented the word ?

 

“History; The term became current in English in the 16th century, along with the first English merchant adventurers in the region; English ships appeared in the Mediterranean in the 1570s, and the English merchant company signed its agreement ("capitulations") with the Grand Turk in 1579”

 

And also;

 

“In 19th-century archaeology, it referred to overlapping cultures in this region during and after prehistoric times, intending to reference the place instead of any one culture.”

 

Also from wiki

 

“Overlapping regional designations; Fertile Crescent, Mesopotamia, Near East and Middle East,

Western Asia.”

 

But if that is not good enough for you I will amend my definition (and make my words even LONGER for you) to

 

" Levantine and Zorosatrian religions and their cultural and regional influences" . Is that better?

 

{Anyone who has studied the subject realises the huge input into Judaism and Islam from Zoroastrianism … most of Judaism was not formulated until AFTER the Mesopotamian influence.}

 

The link I gave to the breath techniques is from a Zoroastrian website … ( but you relinked him to wiki) so what if he is Moslem or not? Cannot Zoroastrins partake of the wisdom and learning of other cultures and religions? Or should we disdain them for that and call them chop suey ?

 

In any case, what is wrong with chop suey anyway? I think I will look the word up on your favourite site; Wikipedia -

 

“ Chop suey has become a prominent part of American Chinese cuisine, Filipino cuisine, Canadian Chinese cuisine, German Chinese cuisine, Indian Chinese cuisine, and Polynesian cuisine. In Indonesian Chinese cuisine it is known as cap cai (雜菜, "mixed vegetables") and mainly consists of vegetables.”

 

" Chop suey is widely believed to have been invented in America by Chinese Americans, but the anthropologist E.N. Anderson concludes that the dish is based on tsap seui ... it began life as a good if humble dish among the specialist vegetable farmers of the area. At the end of the day, they would stir-fry the small shoots, thinnings, and unsold vegetables—up to ten species in a dish!” The Hong Kong doctor Li Shu-fan likewise reported that he knew it in Toisan in the 1890s.

 

I am proud to be associated with a healthy mix of vegetables , a ‘good and humble dish’ of farmers and something that can nourish American, Chinese, Filipino, Canadian, German, Indian, Polynesian and Indonesian .

 

However I do not appear palatable to the Turkish taste … for some reason.

 

I agree with you that Ki Breath of Koichi Tohei is good to practice and good for health … I wasn’t trying to say otherwise.

 

As usual I think you missed the logical thread and responses of my argument.

 

 

Edit: Also, I think many people here realise that breath and regularisation or 'de-patterning' and 're-patterning' of it can effect changes in consciousness and spirit.

 

Total Bullshit.

 

The Levantines are the Italian speaking minority of people living in Istanbul and Izmir in Turkey. They are Catholic. There is nothing as "Levantine Religion" Do not be misled by Nungali's words.

[xor]

Levantine has been used to describe anything coming this area:

 

[Isimsiz Biri]

Levantine has been used to describe anything coming this area:

 

 

Mainly Syria. Not Iran. I already told it.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Lone Wolf & Cub, TV series, Season 1:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5UPd-4UHebHhfCDHzz2fbdsryhC4VXqN

 

 

Lone Wolf & Cub, TV series, Season 2:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5UPd-4UHebHpso9eQiGvctaz0ZwSBpsy

 

 

Lone Wolf & Cub, TV series, Season 3:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5UPd-4UHebFz7jZkzrMV_d5Wniy2HxyX

[Nungali]

Mainly Syria. Not Iran. I already told it.

 

Yes and you told it as total bullshit and said " Italian speaking minority of people living in Istanbul and Izmir in Turkey. They are Catholic". .... that is only ONE limited meaning of the word ...as proved above -which just exposes YOU as one who is willing to lie about things just to prove some point of ego.

 

I fully admit my term was incorrect. I modified it to the Levant and Iran in an above post ....

 

 

Yet again you have been exposed. This happens in many threads and with many people - why do you think that is so .... everyone else is wrong and you are right?

 

What is wrong with you ?

Edited December 2, 2013 by Nungali

[Aaron]

Isimsiz Biri, you obviously failed to understand what I was saying. I don't care who you're talking to, the forum has rules regarding polite discourse and your pattern of behavior in this thread has been less than polite. This policy doesn't apply to only those people you think deserve respect, but to everyone. If you can't talk nicely to others, might I suggest ignoring them?

[Isimsiz Biri]

Isimsiz Biri, you obviously failed to understand what I was saying. I don't care who you're talking to, the forum has rules regarding polite discourse and your pattern of behavior in this thread has been less than polite. This policy doesn't apply to only those people you think deserve respect, but to everyone. If you can't talk nicely to others, might I suggest ignoring them?

 

First, this is a thread opened by me and it is derailed by Nungali. Your warning should go to him, not to me.

 

Second, you should be objective. I have not seen you warning anyone attacking me.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Nungali]

How am I derailing this thread?

 

The thread is about Lone Wolf and Cub (two ‘demons’ that go around killing things they don’t agree with – on whom you seem to base your Dharma – but we will leave that aside for the moment)

At post 3 Mark Foote mentioned Zatoichi. And posted a movie link. I responded to him and posted a small clip link.

 

You roused me for derailing (but not Mark Foote). Mark responded in post 6 saying “You can blame me for that.”

 

Post 8 Mark had a technical question on Zatoichi sword technique (you didn’t admonish him from returning to the subject) you didn’t answer his question so I did ); quick, simple, 3 lines.

 

Then you immediately insulted me and changed the subjects to Nafs, post 12. So I explained to you the level of sword and Nafs I was at. I also suggested your reaction was because of my skill and knowledge in sword, and you reacted with an insult as you do not have that knowledge to converse with me intelligently about it. I came to this conclusion by observation of your interaction with others here where you exhibited the same behaviour.

 

Others were offended by your response to me and posted complaint to you.

 

In post 19 I actually defend you try to see your comment about me as positive and give thanks to you.

 

Then you in post 20 open the subject of nafs again. Then in post 22 you said the demonstration of jo by Morihiro Saito Sensai was ‘A typical exhibition of Nafs’ - very disrespectful !

 

You post 23 starts with an insult to me. 25 shows a further insult which I graceiously accept as advice and bow to you.

 

In post 28 I answer your questions about Nafs (a subject YOU introduced into your own thread (hence self-derailing) briefly and suggest we start another thread to discuss it, so as to NOT derail your own thread.

 

At post 29 the subject matter drifts into ‘monster teachers’. You don’t protest to Mark but answer him and continue on that subject, I comment on it (having an insight into this subject).

 

In post 31 YOU change the subject to Aikido. In post 32 YOU bring in quotes from another different subject and a totally different thread and try a mis-quote on me . Then YOU continue on ‘off topic’ about ‘monster teachers’.

 

In post 37 I answer some questions and accusations levelled at me by you. Then I ask AGAIN if YOU really want to discuss this topic in a tread about Lone Wolf and Cub.

 

In post 38 I answer a question about Aikido, a subject YOU introduced into your own thread.

 

Post 40 YOU continue the off topic and start bringing in information to prove some point, and then later only use part of it to prove something (when you had already quoted my own usage in point 1.

 

I try to point it out logically but you respond with ‘it is total bullshit’ when I was using your own definition you quoted anyway ( point 1 of wiki definition ). Post 43 you move to selective denial.

 

Now other posters point out that you are wrong by putting up fuller info from YOUR OWN reference site.

 

Then when another member asks you to modify you blame ME for derailing the thread. You derailed your own thread several times, I asked twice to move the subject to a new thread but you just continued, and when it appears you were loosing ground, you projected blame onto me for derailing.

 

Part of growing up and maturing is accepting responsibility for one’s own behaviour and actions. I don’t find that TOO hard ( I’m a big boy now ! ). Give it a go … even just as an experiment to see what it is like. I am sure you can do it.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Nungali