So it turns out nobody really knows

[Coaster]

Note - I am not referring here to philosophical/metaphysical issues, where I am quite satisfied with what I've worked out on my own, and what I have read over the years. Instead, I am referring to mechanics of Qi inside the human body.

 

I have been doing some reading in that area, and finally ended up with "Roots of Qigong" by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, considered one of the best books on Qigong theory.

 

Dr. Yang is a PhD physicist, and worked in engineering. So, he is thoroughly grounded in scientific method, and rational appraisal. But, he is also the head of a Martial Arts Institute, studied many arts under many masters, and has taught teachers - so he has significant Qi experience. He grew up in China (Taiwan), so he can read original Chinese texts.

 

But, in the book, at each point where one expects an explanation of how it works, there isn't one (the same gap you can find in all the other popular Qigong books - whether Frantzis or Chuen or Cohen or whoever.

 

Then, towards the end of the book is a big Questions section, and I think "aha!". But it is not Questions and Answers, just Questions. And here he lays out all the questions one might have about Qi theory.

 

So, what seems clear now is that - like most human endeavors - Qi practices were discovered and developed through a practical method of trial and error. Certain "principles" were discovered (such as "relax your body"), but no real understanding of how it all works. Stand like this or wave your arms like that and your energy increases. No one seems to understand why waving your arms one way works, while waving it another way does not.

 

It is interesting that the human body is more complicated and difficult to understand than The Universe as a whole.

 

Note: I'm not looking for a scientific explanation of Qi, an explanation that is verified by the science establishment. I'm looking for an explanation of how Qi cultivation works. Again - no one seems to understand why waving your arms one way works, while waving it another way does not.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Coaster

[Stosh]

Science was invented a long time after trial and error, each has its own advantages.

Trial is often far faster and makes giant leaps. Science tries to minimize the leaps so each step is explianable.

[ChiDragon]

So, what seems clear now is that - like most human endeavors - Qi practices were discovered and developed through a practical method of trial and error. Certain "principles" were discovered (such as "relax your body"), but no real understanding of how it all works. Stand like this or wave your arms like that and your energy increases. No one seems to understand why waving your arms one way works, while waving it another way does not.

 

It is interesting that the human body is more complicated and difficult to understand than The Universe as a whole.

 

There is an explanation in modern science to back this up. I had done that many times but nobody cares about it. If someone wants to know why it works should read about muscle contraction and cell respiration.

[soaring crane]

Search the thread 'what is qi'. You may look at the topic a bit differently, especially after you get to Taomeow 's submission

[xor]

Yeah, science doesn't know even the most basic qi but maybe we'll get there eventually. I used to think it would remain a mystery for the modern world with just isolated people and groups having any idea, much like similiar concepts we have had here in the west that were buried because scientists as a group(there have always been exceptions) no longer understood the terminologies or needed them.

 

Now I'm starting to take a more positive view, so many smart people now working with both qi and science it shouldn't be that it will remain a mystery. I expect to see them peal the first layer of it atleast within a few decades if this continues.

 

See Wim Hof for example

 

[Stosh]

That guy is remarkable . But the narrator lost me when he said it defies natural laws.What he does defy, are normal expectations and the explanations that go with them. Even if he got to the top of Everest in his underpants,, he still walked up there.

[Spotless]

Science is still very much in the dark ages.

 

Being a physicist is definitely no advantage at all in understanding - the impression is one can pin it down.

 

When you reach the point you can pin it down you would look to a poet for the words - the idea of contacting a scientist in this day and age is for marketing and outreach. ( everyone keeps going through the motions - and we should )

Edited November 9, 2013 by Spotless

[JustBHappy]

This is exactly why lineage is so important. There needs to be an unbroken lineage, a living transmission of the exact method of living and practicing, otherwise we waste our precious time. One could spend 10-20 years practicing some of the silly Ba Duan Jin that I've seen and still feel nothing. On the other hand a real qi gong system can have you feeling the effects in a few weeks and absolutely convinced to the point of vowing to never stop the practice after a mere 3 months or so.

The western monkey mind though always expects the world to fit inside the limited box they call science. I swear, it's like science is the new religion or something. The sheeple will not entertain anything that isn't verified by science, and blindly follow the nonsense the scientist continue to tell them.

As far as qi goes, forget about it. It happens. Correct practice and living will make it abundant and correct meditation and yi development will make it pliable. Where the mind goes, the qi will instantaneously follow. Scattered, unfocused mind, scattered unfocused qi.

[ChiDragon]

Science is still very much in the dark ages.

 

Being a physicist is definitely no advantage at all in understanding - the impression is one can pin it down.

 

When you reach the point you can pin it down you would look to a poet for the words - the idea of contacting a scientist in this day and age is for marketing and outreach. ( everyone keeps going through the motions - and we should )

 

This is evasive to defy science. IMO One need to open up the mind for new knowledge. Those old Chinese thinking are only conceptual and just make a believer of out somebody. They have no scientific knowledge but why should we.....???

 

How come we cannot or just don't want to link the modern science to those ancient concepts to make some sense out of them. Do we want to keep ourselves in the dark by accepting those ancient ideas blindly....???

Edited November 9, 2013 by ChiDragon

[xor]

That guy is remarkable . But the narrator lost me when he said it defies natural laws.What he does defy, are normal expectations and the explanations that go with them. Even if he got to the top of Everest in his underpants,, he still walked up there.

 

You are right ofcourse. Wim Hof made statements that he could teach anyone control of the immune system. The response he got from skeptics was it was against natural laws and no one could do it, ergo he was lying and making a supernatural claim. That may have created confusion with the one writing the text for the narrator.

[Coaster]

Note: I'm not looking for a scientific explanation of Qi, an explanation that is verified by the science establishment. I'm looking for an explanation of how Qi cultivation works. Again - no one seems to understand why waving your arms one way works, while waving it another way does not.

 

I only mentioned that Dr. Yang is a scientist, because then he would be the sort of person who would be looking for some sort of explanation, rather than saying "just shut up and do it, it works". And in fact, his list of questions shows that he was looking for an explanation, but did not find one.

[Coaster]

Search the thread 'what is qi'. You may look at the topic a bit differently, especially after you get to Taomeow 's submission

Do you mean this? From the description, the post is now harder to find than the original Shaolin martial arts manuscripts:

 

Taomeow wrote in "What is Qi?":

 

 

Oops... sorry I forgot to leave a trace here mentioning that I've moved that post to my personal forum. The reason being, I realized that I've already written on the subject quite a bit in the past (thank you, Little1, for resurrecting that thread!) and didn't want to interfere too much with any new voices sharing an opinion. Please check it out under "Odds and ends from the main forum" at Taomeow's. I was surprised, after I wrote that post and THEN saw Little1's reference to the discussion of 2009 and revisited it, to find that nothing has changed. Well, that's "heng qi" for you.

I don't see a taomeow personal forum, so I would guess that the post was moved there and then she decided to remove the forum....

Edited November 9, 2013 by Coaster

[JustBHappy]

Sorry, but I still don't see it as important. Life is full of things we don't know and don't understand. Part of the path in my opinion is learning how to accept and make friends with uncertainty instead of the constant need to know why, in other words to put intellectual boxes around our world.

If I stick my hand in fire, it burns. I don't need to know why, or to know what fire really is.

I turn on the light, and I can see things, the sun comes out and I can see clearly. The top physicists in the world still have no idea what light really is. Is it a wave? Is it a particle? Both can proven right or wrong, but none of us is really any closer to knowing what light is, or how and why it works. This doesn't stop us from using it though.

So this leads to the current love affair with science. Even if people really don't understand what a scientist is telling them, they are happy because "ah.... now I know, now I understand." Any explanation a person can give, can only point to one small part of the how and why and will always be incomplete. The humble truth is that us humans know very very little about ourselves and our world, and even the things we think we know, are incomplete or flat out wrong.

The need for always knowing how and why is not only unimportant, it becomes an obstacle.

One of my Bagua masters once said to me "I don't know where my power comes from or what caused it." His power is a result of ALL his training, there is no one secret magical practice or knowledge that gives him such power. I have faith that if I continue on the path that he has given me that one day I will experience the same thing. I don't need him to pinpoint the precise cause. In my opinion, it's the people who think they got everything figured out that should never be trusted. The few that are humble enough to say "I don't know" are the real masters.

I absolutely stand by the "we don't know, just do it" philosophy, especially when it comes to internal training. We find a competent teacher/lineage and invest our time and energy.

[soaring crane]

Do you mean this? From the description, the post is now harder to find than the original Shaolin martial arts manuscripts:

 

Taomeow wrote in "What is Qi?":

 

I don't see a taomeow personal forum, so I would guess that the post was moved there and then she decided to remove the forum....

No that's not what I had in mind at all. I also come up blank when I search for the thread, I think it's maybe 3 years old? It was a long one.

 

She does of course have a personal practice page, sure. Ask her there directly.

 

Edit: ok, I just visited her page and see now what you quoted.

 

In that old thread, some bums, myself included, had been offering their opinions on what Qi is and TM, as I recall, finally had enough and just let fly with a few paragraphs of sublime profundity. It was far and away the clearest description of Qi I've ever read. But I'm not intelligent enough to remember on that level; I read, I integrate, I move on...

 

Anyway, like I said, you could always ask her for her view...

 

Btw, Dr Yang always makes very clear from the outset that his knowledge is limited and he has more questions than answers. That's what I like about him, why I trust him.

Edited November 9, 2013 by soaring crane

[Coaster]

I absolutely stand by the "we don't know, just do it" philosophy, especially when it comes to internal training.

The problem is that when no one knows how it works, then no one knows when it is not correct.

 

There is the story of the Abbey where the monks meditated every morning. One of the monks found a starving cat, and the Abbot allowed him to keep the cat. But every morning, the cat would playfully jump on the meditating monks, make noise, and otherwise disturb their practice. So, the Abbot said to tie the cat to a post outside during the morning meditation. Years later, the cat died, and the monks liked having a cat so they found another stray cat to adopt.

 

Enough years pass, so that none of the monks from the beginning of our story are still alive. The monastery cat dies, and the monks cannot find a stray cat in their area. So they go to their Abbot, saying " What are we going to do ? How can we possibly meditate without a cat tied up outside ? "

---

 

So, that's the problem with "no one understands how it works, but just do it anyway".

[Aetherous]

I'm looking for an explanation of how Qi cultivation works. Again - no one seems to understand why waving your arms one way works, while waving it another way does not.

 

People do understand this. Yang Jwing Ming's books are really not that good. In fact, most books don't contain this knowledge...pretty much only a cultivator with significant practice experience and a developed intuition can say what does what, especially if they study a lot of different things (like traditional medicine, other systems, etc). Or a teacher of a real lineage, but I think even they come to the knowledge through the same way.

 

I'll give you an explanation of how to cultivate qi, which is based on Chinese medicine theory...

 

The food that you eat is transformed by the stomach and spleen, and combines with the air that you breathe which is taken in by the lungs, with the help of the kidney and original qi. This combined breath and food qi is combined with your original qi, and is thus transformed into the true qi, that travels through the meridians (nutritive qi) to nourish the body, and outside of the meridians to fight pathogens (protective qi)...to create health. So you want to optimize the function of the various organs (one way of doing this can be going to bed early which supports the liver, another way is acupuncture which can tonify weak organ systems), provide good nutrition, and breathe...as well as maintaining the original qi, for instance by not being oversexed. There are other ways of benefiting original qi, for instance with the guanyuan acupoint. So that's an idea of how to have "qigong".

 

Here is an example of something that can be intuited based on practice, about why there are different arm positions, which you don't find in many books:

 

Where the fingers point, energy shoots out of the tips...they are like a guide to where energy will flow in general. This is a different form of energy from what circulates through the meridians...it's more like light, than like a nutritional substance. Where your palm points is what you are coming in contact with or "facing"; for instance if you face the palm to the sky, you're connecting with heavenly qi.

 

Combining those two ideas: lets say your palms are facing the earth in front of the lower dantian, with the fingers pointed at a 45 degree angle inward, making a sort of triangle shape. You're connecting to the earth, at the level of the dantian which also relates to the earth as well as the physical body in general...the fingers are causing energy to flow forward from the dantian, which purifies the body. When they face slightly inward toward each other, creating a triangle shape...any time there is a point, energy is caused to flow where the point is pointing. For instance, when you look at this triangle, it causes energy to flow upwards as well as provides a base of support because the energy is also flowing downward and outward.

 

 

So when the fingers point at a 45 degree angle forward, it's causing energy to flow forward from the dantian, which has specific transformational effects on that energy center.

 

Another example could be palms facing the sky, arms out at the sides, hands at head level. This obviously is working at the level of the upper dantian, which relates to the sky as well as the spirit, in a very basic explanation, and you're connecting to the sky with the palm facing position. Arms being out at the sides has an effect on that dantian, basically opening it rather than transforming its energies...and the fingers are likely pointed out to the sides as well, so they cause the energy to flow outward (which opens it).

 

There could be an example of fingers pointed forward while the hands are on the sides of a dantian. This has an effect of opening as well as transforming...the hand position energetically pulls the center open, and the finger position energetically shoots energy forward, transforming it.

 

Forward relates to upward, backward relates to downward...so when energy is shooting forward from lets say the middle dantian, it means energy is also rising from the middle dantian. When a type of energy is flowing upward or forward, there is also a corresponding downward or backward flow of a different type of energy...basically think of electrical current. From what I understand, it doesn't flow in only one direction but simply creates a type of connection.

 

The right arm is related to the right nadi which is solar or yang, the left arm to the left nadi which is lunar or yin...the center of the body is related to the central channel, the sushumna nadi, or the taiji pole. When you move the right hand toward the center of the body, it means that energetically the solar nadi is going into the central channel. If the hand is at the heart, it means that it's happening at that level of the central channel.

 

Getting away from the effect of the location of hands...different movements have different effects, which are more physical. If you shake your arms, you'll probably feel buzzing...it's stimulating the qi or the nervous system in that area of the body, the hand and arm. If you swing your arm, the hand will likely become filled with blood...so you're moving the blood. If you massage it will bring the blood to that point, because the skin becomes red and warm. This is all in the realm of study of "tui na". Different points have different effects....for instance if you massage the skin around your kidneys, it will strengthen the functioning of the kidneys. Some qigong styles use tapping or rubbing of various acupuncture points to do this, although it isn't considering the individual constitution of the practitioner....so if there's a kidney strengthening form, and someone has strong kidneys already but a weak spleen, they're not going to get the results they seek.

 

They also do stretching, which will stretch open the meridians. For instance, if you hyperextend your wrist, you'll be stretching the yin channels of the arm, affecting all of them in some way. This is why some qigongs have you stretch. There is also the light effect, rather than just the physical effect...it will cause energy to expand out of the body. To contrast, if you flex the wrist, it will keep energy more in the body.

 

Not every qigong actually has benefits, or is designed intelligently. In fact, most probably aren't. Sometimes it won't even related to the physical channels...for instance if it includes various mudras. These can have symbolic purposes, rather than directly affecting the flow of qi through the channels. They might be related to the elements of each finger...of which there are different schools of thought.

 

This is a very basic overview, with simple explanations...just to give you an idea that people do actually understand why they do different things. The fact is that each action you do, no matter what it is, has wide ranging effects which are hard to summarize without a lot of study and insight as well as receiving teachings. There are also different systems of study which can be used to compare findings...acupuncture, tui na massage, taoist alchemy, yoga, marma, etc.

 

One book that has some basic explanations of a qigong form is this one about wild goose qigong. I haven't read it because I don't practice that, but there you go.

[Coaster]

Thanks for the post.

 

Some of that sounds like the "correlation is causation" concept that is epidemic in the NewAge/Alternative community.

 

In other words, if the hand is front of a dantien, and we know that dantien is involved with that qigong, then we think that there is a causation. But that doesn't take into account other movements, when the hand is there and that dantien is not involved, because that would require keeping all those things in mind while going through all the various movements.

 

Then there is the question of why all the same movements don't have qi effects when we are packing boxes in trucks, etc. Any active person is constantly waving their hands in front of some dantien, facing one way or the other.

 

In other words, why does Standing Like A Tree increase your Qi, while Standing In Line Waiting For The Bus does not ?

 

The only answer that makes sense to me is "intent". Standing Like A Tree is done with the intent to increase your Qi, while Standing In Line Waiting For The Bus (or Packing the Boxes in the UPS Truck) is not.

 

In fact, if you read various qigong instruction books, there is always additional information for those who cannot stand, etc. about substitutions. Ultimately, one finds very little which is essential.

 

Then there are some qigongs that have instructions which are ridiculously complicated and precise ("move your large intestine 1/8" inward" - only slight exaggeration ). Some of them look very much like classic teacher-student ploys of occupying the student's mind, so it is focused on the body and not on "what that guy said yesterday",

 

So, the hypothesis here is that one is practicing having the intent to improve Qi flow, and any particular movements and postures are designed for their physical body exercise benefit. But this is just a guess...

Edited November 10, 2013 by Coaster

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Intention, attention, no tension, direction, progression .

[Aetherous]

The way I described it is pointing at the way it always works, not just based on intent or what's in the mind. For instance, if you happen to sit with your hands folded in front of the dantian naturally, when watching TV for instance, it will have a similar effect to if you sit in meditation with the hands folded in front of the dantian. Your mind can be somewhere else entirely, and it will always work to produce a certain effect.

Standing like a tree and standing at the bus stop are literally the same, if you maintain the same basic posture (knees slightly bent, the knee as a weight transference joint rather than bearing)...standing no matter what will increase energy in that same way. Waiting for the bus does not diminish your true results! lol. You can notice this when your channels are open and your intuition is developed...practice is basically happening constantly. For instance, just like an hour ago I was standing in the kitchen talking to a relative and I was basically doing zhan zhuang...not even making any postural adjustments or breathing in a specific way or anything. It just happens. It would have made little difference if I had gone outside and got into the perfect stance. Every single thing we do has an effect. For beginners, it will take some quietude to notice that something is happening with a practice, such as standing.

For when teachers give alternatives, such as sitting for those who can't stand...depending on the exercise it will still work, or it might not at all. For instance, you cannot practice zhan zhuang (standing) while sitting...it'll have a different effect which isn't what zhan zhuang does. About the only similarity is that your spine is straight upright in both, so it will have similar effects only based on that. That is a case where intent and expectations would come into it, as you're saying...the person tries to sit, and because their attention isn't distracted by things like TV or other people, they will notice various sensations and will think it's working. Their intent will bring about some result. The quietude will make it noticeable.

No matter what, though, the effect won't be the same as if they were standing...for that example of zhan zhuang. On the other hand, if there was a mudra you were told to do while standing, and the teacher said it was also okay to sit, the effect will be basically the same whichever way you pick...because the working of that method is based on the mudra. The effect does not rely on standing.

So basically: sometimes postures or various actions matter quite a bit for the result. I do not suggest in any way that a person can have the intent to improve qi flow and become healthy, and that it will work. Nor do I suggest that postures are based on various things you're doing with your mind, such as imagining a dantian and the hand in front of it connecting energies etc. You could do some rehashed taiji set (movements which don't have an internal purpose) while having this intent, and achieve literally nothing...or you could lift weights and achieve a lot more, because you would actually be causing qi to flow. Or you could do a qigong set that's legitimate and achieve specific results that don't change based on intent. You can do these things without intent, and they will still work.

[JustBHappy]

I guess I'm just one of the wierdos, but I always do some practice while waiting in lines. The line between life and practice should not exist in my opinion, much of the practice is learning how to do this. I love it. Other people are impatient and distracted, and I'm always thinking, ok give me a few more minutes. Lines are great. Perfect excuse to rest the mind, relax, return to the breathing, the body, and get some practice in.

There is obviously qi gong and TCM theory. But once again, nobody knows why. We can understand to stick a few needles in certain places, but why does it work? The western model/mind fails to pinpoint it and always will. The need to understand everything is both futile and unnecessary, it only distracts the mind in an endless loop of desire and anxiety that cannot be fulfilled.

Then we get to some practices that are clearly beyond any rational, logical, theory. Some of them work like magic.

This is no problem, like I said, when a practice is right we will know. In fact it will be loud and clear.

[JustBHappy]

I agree completely Turtle Shell. The body posture or hand mudras can not only have some effect alone, but can actually quiet the mind. Posture is a huge huge part of the puzzle. Body--->Mind---->Body endless cycle.

One of the most simple and overlooked ones is the smile. Years ago, I was convinced to give it a try, so I forced myself to smile as much as possible throughout the day. The results were amazing, and it had the added bonus of spreading joy to the people around me. A nice smile cuts through whatever mental stuckness a person might be experiencing in that moment. It's a beautiful gift, not only for the receiver, but the giver. Something about it, creates the nueral pathways, opens the meridians, or whatever explaination people might want to attribute to it. Once again, the why will always be questionable, better to simply practice it and experience for oneself.

[Coaster]

The way I described it is pointing at the way it always works, not just based on intent or what's in the mind. For instance, if you happen to sit with your hands folded in front of the dantian naturally, when watching TV for instance, it will have a similar effect to if you sit in meditation with the hands folded in front of the dantian. Your mind can be somewhere else entirely, and it will always work to produce a certain effect.

But you are folding your hands in front of the dantien intentionally. Intent may not have to be in real-time.

 

Conversely, I don't think that someone who randomly develops the habit of folding their hands in front of their dantien (in precisely the correct way), and does it all the time for 50 years, would become a super-Qi-charged MA master unintentionally.

 

If a million chimpanzees waves their arms for a million years, somehow I don't think that one of them will randomly develop the power to blow the other ones across the room with his chi blasts.

[deci belle]

Nobody knows.

 

 

it is a wonderful thing, that.❤

[Coaster]

Actually, it would be possible to test this.

 

There are plenty of stories of guys who went to Masters, did the practices for weeks, and then had a Qi experience.

 

You could test my premise by having the Master masquerade as some sort of mundane supervisor (or perhaps school teacher), and get people to do the practices without being told that it would benefit or change them in any way (in the same way that most people don't feel that waiting for the bus benefits them).

 

Then if any had a Qi experience, we would know that intent is not necessary.

 

But I don't think any would have an experience.

 

Also, there is the example of MCO (small universe). AFAIK, there is no movement and the posture is not "make or break". So, in MCO, it happens because of intent.

[Spotless]

This is evasive to defy science. IMO One need to open up the mind for new knowledge. Those old Chinese thinking are only conceptual and just make a believer of out somebody. They have no scientific knowledge but why should we.....???

How come we cannot or just don't want to link the modern science to those ancient concepts to make some sense out of them. Do we want to keep ourselves in the dark by accepting those ancient ideas blindly....???

 

I don't think I was being evasive at all - I was being polite.

The title of the post is a broadcast of ego - and the first sentence compounds the innocence of the poster who like so many has no understanding of the word Philosophy. You then continue along this line of casual dismissal with "those old Chinese thinking are only conceptual..."

He then seems to infer that Science is some higher form than philosophy (where do you think higher math comes from) which at their highest forms would put science several miles under philosophy.

 

And then we have the issue of science - the method is good but the habit is catastrophic in regard to this.

If you require science for this inquiry to clarify the how's and what's of Qi then you will be eating processed food in the end. They cannot work with this as a whole - certainly not at this point in their infancy.

 

(I hope this is not considered a rude rebuff - if it is taken that way I will remove it promptly)