Is the Libertarian Party the closest thing to Anarchism the U.S. political system has?

[soaring crane]

Something interesting I saw that speaks volumes about the harm government interference in our daily lives causes without us knowing....

 

 

Aaron

 

Lol... Are you absolutely certain that you want to use this video to illustrate your points? I'd advise against it...

[ralis]

Something interesting I saw that speaks volumes about the harm government interference in our daily lives causes without us knowing....

 

 

Aaron

 

Link doesn't work.

[soaring crane]

Link doesn't work.

 

 

It's a little town in Germany that took part in a EU project called 'Shared Space' (the wiki page - there are some success stories in there). The reason they agreed to be part of the project is because they got close to a million Euros from the EU parliament to resurface a 450 meter section of their inner city area.

 

The area is now basically flat, with no clearly marked zones for automobiles or pedestrians, and no traffic signs of any kind, and ostensibly no 'rules', the idea being that people will be more careful and attentive if left to their own judgment instead of being told how to drive and where to walk. And it works, more or less. For the residents of the town, it's resulted in a more relaxed driving experience. There haven't been any bad accidents (I'm pretty sure it's still in effect), and it's generally seen as a success. For the drivers.

 

This is why it's called a metaphor for the Libertarian principles: Leave people to their own senses and they'll work things out to the best of their abilities, certainly better than when government interferes with the natural course of things.

 

However - there are a few facts about this 'experiment' which don't support the Libertarian claims:

 

• First, the funding. This is a government project.
• Next, this is Germany, the country with arguably the most stringent driver's licensing laws in the world, and therefore arguably the best drivers (I'm and American who's been living here a long time and would feel comfortable taking that bet).
• Next, there are still rules in play here. 'Rechts vor Links' means 'Right before Left' (they got it wrong in the video), and everyone knows it with or without signs.
• There are in fact speed limits within city limits, with or without signs. Unless otherwise marked, the speed limit inside a town here is always 50km/h.
• Specifically in Bohmte, pedestrians now avoid the area when possible. They do not feel safe and are much much more alert when they have to walk through this 'free zone'.
• There aren't many people in Bohmte to begin with. It's a little town of 13,000 residents, and very little thru-traffic.
• Even the mayor of the town advises against trying this in larger municipalities. (he's also tried and failed to get the money to extend his shared space zone, but not because of the better traffic flow, he just wanted the cash for road improvements).
• Last thing - this situation is not that unusual in Germany. There are lot's of old town centers where pedestrians and vehicles have to share space every day.

Edited November 18, 2013 by soaring crane

[Aaron]

 

 

It's a little town in Germany that took part in a EU project called 'Shared Space' (the wiki page - there are some success stories in there). The reason they agreed to be part of the project is because they got close to a million Euros from the EU parliament to resurface a 450 meter section of their inner city area.

 

The area is now basically flat, with no clearly marked zones for automobiles or pedestrians, and no traffic signs of any kind, and ostensibly no 'rules', the idea being that people will be more careful and attentive if left to their own judgment instead of being told how to drive and where to walk. And it works, more or less. For the residents of the town, it's resulted in a more relaxed driving experience. There haven't been any bad accidents (I'm pretty sure it's still in effect), and it's generally seen as a success. For the drivers.

 

This is why it's called a metaphor for the Libertarian principles: Leave people to their own senses and they'll work things out to the best of their abilities, certainly better than when government interferes with the natural course of things.

 

However - there are a few facts about this 'experiment' which don't support the Libertarian claims:

 

• First, the funding. This is a government project.
• Next, this is Germany, the country with arguably the most stringent driver's licensing laws in the world, and therefore arguably the best drivers (I'm and American who's been living here a long time and would feel comfortable taking that bet).
• Next, there are still rules in play here. 'Rechts vor Links' means 'Right before Left' (they got it wrong in the video), and everyone knows it with or without signs.
• There are in fact speed limits within city limits, with or without signs. Unless otherwise marked, the speed limit inside a town here is always 50km/h.
• Specifically in Bohmte, pedestrians now avoid the area when possible. They do not feel safe and are much much more alert when they have to walk through this 'free zone'.
• There aren't many people in Bohmte to begin with. It's a little town of 13,000 residents, and very little thru-traffic.
• Even the mayor of the town advises against trying this in larger municipalities. (he's also tried and failed to get the money to extend his shared space zone, but not because of the better traffic flow, he just wanted the cash for road improvements).
• Last thing - this situation is not that unusual in Germany. There are lot's of old town centers where pedestrians and vehicles have to share space every day.

 

Where did you get the information for your counter argument? I haven't heard any of these things about the project. You're probably right, people aren't capable of making the right choices for themselves, especially in regards to driving an automobile, so they certainly need strict and stringent rules that direct them in every action they possibly could take.

 

Oh wait, maybe the purpose of these rules is simply to ticket drivers for "unsafe actions", as was my case. One of the few tickets I've ever received occurred twenty years ago, when I was at an intersection in the middle of nowhere and slowed down, almost to complete stop, but not quite, before making my turn. It was at night and there were no cars in any direction, but a cop was waiting behind a sign and gave me a ticket. He even admitted that I hadn't put anyone in danger, but the law was the law he said.

 

Now the facts about this project speak volumes... first accidents are down and there are numerous testimonials regarding the improved traffic conditions, however you seem to be providing only circumstantial evidence, without any citation to verify it's veracity.

 

We don't need the government to dictate our lives, take care of our poor, or direct traffic, we need them to protect the borders, (not expand them) that's it. When they do that and leave the people to their own devices, peace will reign in the land, or at least that's what Lao Tzu felt.

 

Aaron

 

edit- And I'll bet you if there's a campaign against this project it's backed by the insurance companies.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Aaron

[Aaron]

Lol... Are you absolutely certain that you want to use this video to illustrate your points? I'd advise against it...

 

One of the things I find most offensive in a conversation online is when someone chooses to start their reply with a LOL, because in regards to a debate or discussion, it shows disrespect to the person who you're talking to. The point could've been made without the LOL and it wouldn't have been derisive. I think in regards to internet etiquette that should be one of the most important rules to consider when you're having a dialogue with someone else. Simply ask yourself if you would do this in polite conversation, laugh at what someone has just told you, and then ask how that would make the other person feel.

 

Aaron

Edited November 19, 2013 by Aaron

[ralis]

 

 

We don't need the government to dictate our lives, take care of our poor, or direct traffic, we need them to protect the borders, (not expand them) that's it. When they do that and leave the people to their own devices, peace will reign in the land, or at least that's what Lao Tzu felt.

 

Aaron

 

I can't believe what you are saying! Leaving persons to their own devices will lead to peace? Humans need structured rules and that is a fact. Have you observed the state of humans affairs as of late? What proof do you have that giving persons absolute freedom from rules, will somehow magically create an ordered society? What you are incorrectly stating, is that rules create aberrant behavior.

[Aaron]

In regards to returning to a strict Constitutional ideology, which is nothing but a misunderstanding of the Constitution. The framers could not foresee every change needed in the future with an evolving society but left provisions for amendments. I suppose that Libertarians would dispose of whatever amendments they don't like or even understand the reason for.

 

That's not necessarily true. I can't foretell the future, but what I can say is that they are not against getting rid of all amendments, only those that are obviously unconstitutional. I also know that they take the constitution very seriously and I doubt they would undergo any drastic changes without prior consideration regarding the legality of the law.

 

Remember they supported gay marriage and are against the prohibition of narcotics and marijuana. They also are against censorship and the invasion of privacy, again they were one of the few political movements that were against the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act, in fact they warned people what would happen if the act was passed, and they were right.

 

I honestly believe that people will do the right thing if they are given the chance. I think much of our fear regarding this is government propaganda that tells us differently. The truth is there in front of us, but we decide that we don't want to see it because it contradicts what we are taught is the right. Until we ask the question, why is this right, we wont every understand why it might be wrong.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

I can't believe what you are saying! Leaving persons to their own devices will lead to peace? Humans need structured rules and that is a fact. Have you observed the state of humans affairs as of late? What proof do you have that giving persons absolute freedom from rules, will somehow magically create an ordered society? What you are incorrectly stating, is that rules create aberrant behavior.

 

Rules absolutely create aberrant behavior. The more rules the more aberrant a society becomes, because rules prevent people from being able to behave in a natural fashion. The only reason why there are laws is to control people, but as Lao Tzu said, the more you try to control something, the more sick it becomes and the more it deviates from the natural path (Te).

 

Aaron

 

edit- This is Anarchism 101 by the way, of which I am a card carrying member.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Aaron

[ralis]

That's not necessarily true. I can't foretell the future, but what I can say is that they are not against getting rid of all amendments, only those that are obviously unconstitutional. I also know that they take the constitution very seriously and I doubt they would undergo any drastic changes without prior consideration regarding the legality of the law.

 

Remember they supported gay marriage and are against the prohibition of narcotics and marijuana. They also are against censorship and the invasion of privacy, again they were one of the few political movements that were against the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act, in fact they warned people what would happen if the act was passed, and they were right.

 

I honestly believe that people will do the right thing if they are given the chance. I think much of our fear regarding this is government propaganda that tells us differently. The truth is there in front of us, but we decide that we don't want to see it because it contradicts what we are taught is the right. Until we ask the question, why is this right, we wont every understand why it might be wrong.

 

Aaron

 

Quite frankly, your narrative is based on nothing but fantasy and does not correspond to reality. What about sociopathic behavior? Remove the classification/rules and magically the psychopathic person behaves normally and seeks to do the right thing? Your narrative violates reason and fact.

 

Hobbes was correct in that human society needs rules to create order, or as he termed it, a 'social contract', so that communities are safe from natural tendencies i.e, aberrant behavior. Although he proposed ideology that was too severe in terms of punishment for rule breaking.

 

The mistaken idea that the natural person is benevolent is a mistaken view and does not correspond with historical or anthropological accounts of human societies. Historical facts are not on your side.

Edited November 19, 2013 by ralis

[soaring crane]

Where did you get the information for your counter argument? .... Now the facts about this project speak volumes... first accidents are down and there are numerous testimonials regarding the improved traffic conditions, however you seem to be providing only circumstantial evidence, without any citation to verify it's veracity.

Learn to read German and go search the information yourself, if you're actually interested in other points of view and facts that undermine your arguments.

 

 

 

 

One of the things I find most offensive in a conversation online is when someone chooses to start their reply with a LOL, because in regards to a debate or discussion, it shows disrespect to the person who you're talking to. The point could've been made without the LOL and it wouldn't have been derisive.

LOL does not translate to 'I laugh derisively in your face', it simply means that what you wrote made me laugh. Actually made me laugh, out loud. Not derisively, just plain old humorously. I found it very funny that you chose that particular story to illustrate your beliefs - a story that I'm well-acquainted with, and do know the background to. You on the other hand saw a youtube clip (From French television) and liked what you saw, yet you know nothing about the history of the story, you simply feel it translates into a confirmation of your political beliefs and so you posted it, probably not expecting a rebuttal. I gave you the background and you can't even bring yourself to admit that maybe there's more to it than you're aware of, maybe it isn't so cut and dried as you thought.

 

I also generously posted a link to the wiki page where there are many other stories noted, none of which I have the background to and so can't draw any conclusions.

 

Btw, you honestly think people should be allowed to buy and drive cars with no training and no licensing? Starting at what age? This is the kind of thing that drove me from the Libertarians in the first place. Blind, ideological thinking, inflexible unwavering adherence to a political theory. It's no different than Leninism in reverse.

Edited November 19, 2013 by soaring crane

[ralis]

I just received a letter from friends of mine who are living in Kathmandu for 10 months. They took jobs to teach ESL (English as a second language). Kathmandu's air is so polluted, that most of the population wears a mask just to conduct everyday errands. Poor sanitation, bad food, high crime rate, very little formal education, as well as little or no medical care. Both of my friends have already been sick twice and have only been there for four weeks. Obviously, there are few to no rules which make for unsafe living conditions. Libertarian values? Seems as though the govt. is not telling people how to live. Libertarians complain that government interference causes social problems but what about this example and many more? Very little government interference in the lives of Nepalese. Why aren't the lives of Nepalese improving?

[Aaron]

I just received a letter from friends of mine who are living in Kathmandu for 10 months. They took jobs to teach ESL (English as a second language). Kathmandu's air is so polluted, that most of the population wears a mask just to conduct everyday errands. Poor sanitation, bad food, high crime rate, very little formal education, as well as little or no medical care. Both of my friends have already been sick twice and have only been there for four weeks. Obviously, there are few to no rules which make for unsafe living conditions. Libertarian values? Seems as though the govt. is not telling people how to live. Libertarians complain that government interference causes social problems but what about this example and many more? Very little government interference in the lives of Nepalese. Why aren't the lives of Nepalese improving?

 

The only true course of change is a change of heart. You can make laws, people will break them. You can force people to pay taxes for programs that they don't want, they will resent them. You can educate the children to believe the government is infallible, but at some point it will fail them.

 

You are operating within the premise that people are immoral and sinful by nature, most likely a view point that you gained while being indoctrinated with judeo-christian values. You are not seeing past the trap, so you're caught within this cycle of negativity, that anything different is wrong, sinful, and only those things that align with your own values can be correct and right.

 

When we work within this framework, we fail to see the value of other people, their ideas, their abilities, and their capabilities. We see people, not as they are, but as the labels we place on them.

 

You are providing examples, not of anarchy, or libertarianism, but of corrupt governments that are in the pocket of corporations or kingpins. Nepal is widely known as one of the most corrupt governments which is why pollution laws and standards have never been enforced. I would suggest that rather than continuing to find examples of countries that are not Libertarian in the least, you remember that Libertarianism is opposed by the political system, because it gives power back to the people and takes it away from the government, which in most cases is nothing more than a corporate shill.

 

If you don't believe this, then just take a look at what corporate interests supported Obama's election and what actions he took on their behalf. I think it's ironic that one of his largest campaign contributors and supporters was the Insurance industry and now it's illegal not to have health insurance. Nothing insidious there.

 

Aaron

Edited November 19, 2013 by Aaron

[Aaron]

 

Learn to read German and go search the information yourself, if you're actually interested in other points of view and facts that undermine your arguments.

 

LOL does not translate to 'I laugh derisively in your face', it simply means that what you wrote made me laugh. Actually made me laugh, out loud. Not derisively, just plain old humorously. I found it very funny that you chose that particular story to illustrate your beliefs - a story that I'm well-acquainted with, and do know the background to. You on the other hand saw a youtube clip (From French television) and liked what you saw, yet you know nothing about the history of the story, you simply feel it translates into a confirmation of your political beliefs and so you posted it, probably not expecting a rebuttal. I gave you the background and you can't even bring yourself to admit that maybe there's more to it than you're aware of, maybe it isn't so cut and dried as you thought.

 

I also generously posted a link to the wiki page where there are many other stories noted, none of which I have the background to and so can't draw any conclusions.

 

Btw, you honestly think people should be allowed to buy and drive cars with no training and no licensing? Starting at what age? This is the kind of thing that drove me from the Libertarians in the first place. Blind, ideological thinking, inflexible unwavering adherence to a political theory. It's no different than Leninism in reverse.

 

Before the insurance companies came up with the notion of auto insurance there was no legal age limit for driving. Most of the laws that are enforced in most countries are lobbied by the auto insurance industry. The reason why they back laws, is simply because it allows them to earn a greater revenue on claims.

 

The only law that should be applied to driving is that one needs to do it safely. It's not hard to figure out what constitutes unsafe driving, and it would be easy enough for a police officer who sees someone driving unsafely to stop them and document why they stopped them. A judge could then adjudicate whether or not they put others in danger with their actions and act accordingly. And I know someone will say "oh and then it's so subjective", well guess what, it's already subjective, the difference is that it's subjective in a way that allows insurance companies to increase premiums for stupid things like not coming to a complete stop or failing to wear your seat belt.

 

People seem to believe that libertarians are opposed to authority, but that's not the case, there is a need for authority in the Libertarian view, but there is a greater need for civil liberties and freedom.

 

Aaron

Edited November 19, 2013 by Aaron

[zerostao]

aaron, do you have an opinion of rand paul ?

[Aaron]

aaron, do you have an opinion of rand paul ?

 

I really don't know enough about him to say one way or another. At least he's not Ted Cruz, which is what I think a lot of Tea Party members are saying now. Man you would not believe how many are pissed about the whole "lets take the country to the abyss because they aren't giving us our own way" debacle. I don't think they realize how much harm they caused their own party.

 

On another note, he says he's a Libertarian, but I think he means he leans towards the Libertarian stance. If he runs for president, will I vote for him? Well it depends on who else is running, but right now he does seem to be the most Libertarian candidate to make it in mainstream politics to date. I do believe he appreciates the need to follow the constitution and he hasn't (to my knowledge) jumped on the "America under God" bandwagon, nor the Tea Party desire to have a constitutional monarchy. Laugh, but they actually discussed this as the most Christian form of government.

 

Aaron

Edited November 20, 2013 by Aaron

[gendao]

It's government/private collusion that you're (rightfully) railing against. The mistake, as I see it, is in thinking you can remove one of the those aspects i.e. government, and the problems will solve themselves.

Well, while any centralization of power can be ripe for abuse, governments may become far more abusive because they can establish law and wage war in addition to disseminating propaganda (both hard & soft power). Whereas corporations can only influence and lobby (soft power) using profits generated from consumers constantly voting for them in the free market where "the customer is always right" ("financial direct democracy"). Thus, all the great genocides throughout history were ultimately waged by governments, not corporations.

Don't get me wrong, corporations (like Monsanto) can be some horrific henchmen or rogues, but governments can still do even greater harm due to their greater centralization of and expanded powers.

 

Thus, I'd generally rather reign in government more than corporations, relatively-speaking.

 

Of course, both of these are ultimately projections of our majority mass consciousness, which generally eschews long-term, responsible stewardship for any opportunistic, short-term, instant gratification/self-gain. A "democratic"/oligarchic government will simply reflect its majority population. So, until citizens as a whole shape up, we can't reasonably expect EITHER bad corporations or our government to, either..

aaron, do you have an opinion of rand paul ?

I'd say he's similar to his dad, but more diluted for public consumption..

Nonetheless in mainstream politics, he's one of the few, lone voices in the wilderness actually actively fighting the NW0 takeover to help preserve ALL our civil liberties!

Which is precisely why Leftists and even neocons hate him, Libertarians and the Tea Party! Because proposals like this WOULD literally derail their authoritarian plans to rule the world with an iron fist!!!

Edited November 22, 2013 by vortex

[soaring crane]

Well, while any centralization of power can be ripe for abuse, governments may become far more abusive because they can establish law and wage war in addition to disseminating propaganda (both hard & soft power). ...

 

yeah, well, I was of course replying directly to your statement:

 

 

"YES!!! Along with our anti-natural, pro-GMO FDA, lobbyist-run EPA, FRB, 0rweIIian NSA, war-mongering MIEC, anti-holistic Opharmacare, burgeoning tax-paid po-po state, exploding ~$50 trillion debt, etc.."

 

 

Now your off into genocide and WWII deaths... and I'm really done with this thread.

 

My summary: Libertarianism, although there are a few good ideas in the platform, is childishly naive at its best and virulently evil at its worst.

[gendao]

The Feds continue to persecute natural herbalists with wanton abandon, despite all statements to the contrary... (By comparison, corporations don't have this direct po-po state power.)

Agents from the Drug Enforcement Agency and Internal Revenue Service raided at least 10 locations in Colorado on Thursday. The raids included growing warehouses, a Denver dispensary and two homes. No one was arrested, but federal authorities say an investigation is ongoing.
People in Colorado's marijuana industry were withholding judgment on the raids. But with retail recreational marijuana sales set to start in less than six weeks, uncertainty remains a constant presence.

Medical Marijuana and under 100 plants were seized by Federal Authorities in a search of Alternative Medicine of Southeast Denver, despite being shown comments from AG Eric Holder and stance of President Obama to allow States to decide issues like Medical Marijuana.

In 1991, the pharmacy adjacent to Wright's clinic (which sold products prepared in a laboratory co-owned by Wright, also adjacent to his clinic) was raided by the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for selling L-tryptophan, a supplement that had recently been banned from marketing after contaminated supplies were associated with eosinophilia–myalgia syndrome. After several months of investigations and difficulties between Wright and the FDA, a magistrate issued warrants to search the premises of Wright's clinic and adjacent pharmacy.

 

On May 6, 1992, FDA agents entered the premises by knocking down the door after employees refused to open it; one of the agents had a drawn gun, under the incorrect assumption that the "illegal drugs" referred to in the investigation were narcotics. Wright and his sympathizers distributed footage of the events, calling it the "Vitamin B-Bust". In August of the same year, Wright was fined $850 for court costs and fees, and ordered to destroy his supply of L-tryptophan; a grand jury declined to criminally prosecute him for violating FDA drug laws.

Why Is the FDA Picking On Cherries?

 

recent attack on cherries is aimed at statements made on websites not linked to labels. Since the FDA has no authority to dictate website content-which is regulated by the Federal Trade Commission-I asked the agency by what authority it was threatening to seize property and stop people from selling cherry products.

 

part of the information on cherries that the FDA wants to censor was funded by a different governmental agency. The US Department of Agriculture (USDA) gave the cherry industry a $141,210 grant to investigate the health benefits of cherries so the industry could increase its sales.

 

The FDA does not want the cherry industry to tell people that recent studies show that cherries contain substances that are potentially 10 times stronger than aspirin or ibuprofen for relieving pain. It does not want the public to know that substances in cherries may kill cancer cells and prevent cancer. It makes no difference whether these statements are true. What's important is that the public not be told that a natural substance (cherries) has been shown to work as well as or better than an unnatural one (ibuprofen). Only drugs, according to the FDA's legal doctrine, can prevent, treat, mitigate, or cure disease.

Meanwhile...they simultaneously seek to aggressively replace Nature with their own synthetic mutants with the same wanton abandon..

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) announced that it’s prepared to give genetically engineered (GE) salmon its final stamp of approval.

The DNA of an altered salmon is engineered to produce growth hormones continuously during its lifetime, making it grow faster and bigger than natural salmon. The FDA has not conducted independent, long-term safety testing and merely assumes that the genetically engineered salmon is safe to eat based on industry claims, once again putting corporate science over public health.

Thus, there is NO QUESTION in my mind that our Big Gov (and some corporations) are a HUGE PART of our problem, and generally NOT (in its current state) part of the "regulatory" solution.

Edited November 23, 2013 by vortex

[ralis]

The Libertarian party ideology is based on 'Social Darwinism' as opposed to altruism/cooperation. I would recommend reading E.O. Wilson's works on the biology of altruism, in which he discusses the evolutionary advantage of belonging to a group, as opposed to the ideology of selfish individual interests. Individuals do not evolve on their own but the group evolves, which is a natural biological process.

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=e.o.%20wilson&sprefix=e.o.+wi%2Cstripbooks&rh=i%3Astripbooks%2Ck%3Ae.o.%20wilson

[runner11]

I don't think libertarianism is perfect. It has its flaws like any other philosophy, because human nature is flawed. At this point, I don't care what party a candidate belongs to, as long as they are not corrupt. This is so rare to find, that they'll usually get my vote regardless of their party affiliation or talking points, with a few exceptions.

 

The Monsanto Protection Act, NDAA, SOPA, the bank bailout, etc. These are things that any democrat, republican, libertarian, green party, or whatever party would only vote for if they were corrupt. If we got corporate money out of politics, I think we'd be amazed how much more our government would be "of the people," and I think the vast majority of people agree on the vast majority of issues.

[gendao]

"YES!!! Along with our anti-natural, pro-GMO FDA, lobbyist-run EPA, FRB, 0rweIIian NSA, war-mongering MIEC, anti-holistic Opharmacare, burgeoning tax-paid po-po state, exploding ~$50 trillion debt, etc.."

Perhaps the BIGGEST problem with all of these incredibly powerful government agencies (plus the "legalist god" Supreme Court) is that they are NOT ELECTED, but APPOINTED. Which is why the government LOVES creating agencies...because it gives them the free agency to bypass any remotely "democratic" processes..

The Monsanto Protection Act, NDAA, SOPA, the bank bailout, etc. These are things that any democrat, republican, libertarian, green party, or whatever party would only vote for if they were corrupt. If we got corporate money out of politics, I think we'd be amazed how much more our government would be "of the people," and I think the vast majority of people agree on the vast majority of issues.

More Republicans voted against the bailouts and more Democrats voted against NDAA.

 

But, only Libertarians (and other indy's) were against all of these. In particular, Ron Paul was extremely vocally opposed to them all (even before Sn0den's revelations).

Ergo, mainstream parties just seek to discredit him because he actively fights against the NW0.

Edited November 24, 2013 by vortex

[ralis]

I am basically through with this thread for the reason that discussing with ideologues, and persons who are unable to engage in critical thinking/discussion, are only interested in their own feel good belief systems which makes discussion extremely one sided. Libertarian ideology is not based on reason or an understanding of complex societies. To ignore the fact that humans are social beings and are part of complex cultures, for the sake of an illusory so called natural existence unfettered by rules, is irrational. Colin Turnbull states it well in his classic work http://www.amazon.com/Forest-People-Pimlico-Colin-Turnbull-ebook/dp/B009K5GWI0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385341519&sr=8-1&keywords=colin+turnbull+the+forest+people that even primitive tribes that are living a so called natural existence, have rules.

 

Prof. Henry Giroux interviewed by Bill Moyers.

 

Edited November 25, 2013 by ralis

[ralis]

Another example as to why Libertarian/Tea bagger/Ayn Rand objectivism which encourages selfishness is antithetical to cooperation.

 

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/10/ayn_rand_loving_ceo_destroys_his_empire_partner/

 

Once upon a time, hedge fund manager Eddie Lampert was living a Wall Street fairy tale. His fairy godmother was Ayn Rand, the dashing diva of free-market ideology whose quirky economic notions would transform him into a glamorous business hero.

For a while, it seemed to work like a charm. Pundits called him the “Steve Jobs of the investment world.” The new Warren Buffett. By 2006 he was flying high, the richest man in Connecticut, managing over $15 billion thorough his hedge fund, ESL Investments.

Stoked by his Wall Street success, Lampert plunged headlong into the retail world. Undaunted by his lack of industry experience and hailed a genius, Lampert boldly pushed to merge Kmart and Sears with a layoff and cost-cutting strategy that would, he promised, send profits into the stratosphere. Meanwhile the hotshot threw cash around like an oil sheikh, buying a $40 million pad in Florida’s Biscayne Bay, a record even for that star-studded county.

Fast-forward to 2013: The fairy tale has become a nightmare.

Lampert is now known as one of the worst CEOs in America — the man who flushed Sears down the toilet with his demented management style and harebrained approach to retail. Sears stock is tanking. His hedge fun is down 40 percent, and the business press has turned from praising Lampert’s genius towatching gleefully as his ship sinks. Investors are running from “Crazy Eddie” like the plague.

That’s what happens when Ayn Rand is the basis for your business plan.

Crazy Eddie has been one of America’s most vocal advocates of discredited free-market economics, so obsessed with Ayn Rand he could rattle off memorized passages of her novels. As Mina Kimes explained in a fascinating profile in Bloomberg Businessweek, Lampert took the myth that humans perform best when acting selfishly as gospel, pitting Sears company managers against each other in a kind of Lord of the Flies death match. This, he believed, would cause them to act rationally and boost performance.

[gendao]

Amazing! Deborah Tavares basically corroborates all my suspicions about all the systematic manipulation by the llluminati based upon an alleged NASA PowerPoint presentation by Dennis Bushnell released in July 2001:

- Our government is being replaced by agencies to bypass the "democratic" process

- They will continue to chip away at America using ongoing false flag "terr0rist" attacks and advanced EMF/PSl weaponry

- Increasing use of smart meters and sensors for total surveillance

- CNN was created as a propaganda arm of the ClA

- They geoengineer with chemtrails and control the food supply with GM0

- They offer poison food to help weed out all those too stupid to choose healthy food

- Banksters created our phony "2 party" system just to allow voters to "air their grievances"

- After replacing real with fake fiat money, wars are promoted to kill all the creditors (both cannon fodder and "enemy" creditor states)

- Etc, etc

- Basically, they are big proponents of supplanting our true Divine Nature with an artificial intelligent, transhuman, synthetic clone "womb"

 

Essentially, they are playing the "bad cop" in Earth's "Master Plan":

 

Creation Story

An Insider Tells Creation Story of Subjugation, Transformation of Earth

"Remember, always, that this is a beautiful game that we are playing here and co-creating together with our Infinite Creator. And that off stage (between lives), we are the very best of friends. No one really dies and no one really suffers, except in the game. The game is not reality. Reality is reality. And you have the power to express your reality within the game, once you have learnt how to do so."

Below is a four-page summary of an amazing creation story which has touched many who read it deeply. It is from a highly unusual discourse with an anonymous individual who claims to be a very deep insider. Besides presenting a unique creation story, most intriguing explanations are given as to why there is so much war and violence on our planet, and why some of our world leaders are so corrupt. If this essay resonates with you, don't miss the 16-page version at this link to get the full transformational impact of this material. Consider also opening to spiritual guidance as you read this thought-provoking material.

In the Beginning

 

In the beginning, there is the Infinite One. This is the source of All That Is. Infinite consciousness. Intelligent infinity. There is unity. Infinite intelligence and infinite energy – the two are one, and the potential for all creation is contained therein. Infinite intelligence does not recognize its potential. It is the undifferentiated absolute. This state of consciousness could be termed as "being". Infinite energy, in contrast, recognizes the potential of "becoming" all things. Infinite intelligence can be likened to the central heartbeat of life, and infinite energy to the spiritual life-blood which pumps out from the Creator to form the creation.

In effect, the Creator is a point of focused infinite consciousness expressing infinite intelligent energy. On focusing its infinite intelligence, the One Infinite Creator manifests intelligent energy which you could call the great central sun. It then divides itself into smaller portions of itself that can, in turn, experience themselves as creators or central suns, thus beginning the next step in the creational spiral. In other words, each central sun or creator is a step down in conscious awareness (or distortion) from the original "thought" of creation.

Creation is based upon three primary laws or distortions of the Infinite One: free will, love, and light. In the first law, the creator receives the free will to know and experience itself as an individuated, though paradoxically unified, aspect of the One. In the second, the initial distortion of free will becomes a focus point of awareness known as Logos, or love, which uses its infinite intelligent energy to co-create a vast array of physical manifestations which will best offer the range of potential experiences in which it can know itself. To manifest this infinite spiritual or life-force energy into a physical form, Logos creates the third distortion of light. Wherever thus exists any form of physical matter, there is light, love, and divine intelligent energy at it's core.

So using the law of free will, the One Infinite Creator steps down its infinite energy to become Logos. Logos designs vast universes of space, stepping down and splitting itself into an array of sub-Logos, each of which becomes a co-creator of its own universe. Each universal Logos then designs and creates its own version of physical reality by focusing its intelligent energy to create, for instance, the form of galaxies within itself. Stepping down again, each galactic Logos can split itself into yet further co-creator portions (sub-sub-Logos), which can then design and manifest their own ideas of physical reality, as in the form of stars and planets.

Yahweh, Lucifer, and the Ruling Bloodlines

We are not directly created by the One Infinite Creator, but rather by our own Logos, sub-Logos, or sub-sub-Logos. Your creator, the one who has been called Yahweh, is not "God" inasmuch as your Bible refers to him as being the one true God. He is "a" creator (or sub-sub-Logos) rather than the One Infinite Creator. He is not a galactic level Logos, but rather is the planetary Logos for this one planet. Yet ultimately, all are a part of the One. And either consciously or unconsciously, all are exercising their free will to create.

I am a generational member of a ruling bloodline family. Our lineage can be traced back beyond antiquity. Our creator is the one you refer to as Lucifer, "the Light Bearer". Our creator is not "the Devil", as has been portrayed in some religious texts. Lucifer is what you would call a "group soul" which has evolved to the level of the sixth density (dimension or plane of existence). At one point our bloodline families, as a group soul, were on the verge of seventh density ascension. At this level, we had the choice to progress higher, or to return to help others of lower densities with their evolution. Having made our decision to stay and help, we were assigned a challenging task by the Council of Elders, who act as the guardians of this galaxy.

Yahweh, due to the fact that he had not handed down his own free will to "know thyself" to those incarnating upon his planet, was having very little evolutionary progress therein. In the absence of free will, there can be no polarity, and therefore, nothing to choose between. As is portrayed in the book of Genesis, the Earth was very Edenic in nature. Sure, it was a lovely paradise, yet the beings incarnating here had no agitator toward evolving beyond the third density, and therefore, little hope of ever making the journey home to the One.

So we (Lucifer) were sent to help. Once the order was given from the Council of Elders, we "fell", or descended back to a place where we could, with hard work and focus, once again materialize a third density manifestation of ourself. Yahweh had agreed to our coming. In fact, it was he who had initially asked the Council for a "catalyst" of change to enter into his creation. Yahweh agreed that we would introduce the concept of free will to Earth's inhabitants by offering them an initial choice. Hence, "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" (or more accurately, the knowledge of polarity – of positive and negative).

Yahweh then takes his inhabitants to a new "garden". He tells them they can do anything they like except eating from the Tree of Knowledge, thus creating in them the desire to do the one thing they are told they cannot. Hence, a "choice". We provide the catalyst by telling them the benefits of attaining knowledge. They then choose to eat from the tree, and the rest is history.

Yahweh thought that his "children" would still choose to obey him. When he discovered they did not, he became angry. As is described in his scriptures, he is a jealous God. He did not like it that his children had chosen to disobey him and follow our advice. Yet our group soul was already committed to being here for a predefined set of cycles to help provide the catalyst for human evolution, namely by offering you the negative option, or that which you choose to call "evil".

And so from the earliest times of recorded history and beyond, our group soul has been directing the play from behind the scenes. We are born to lead. It is part of the design for this current paradigm. People in this world are seen as collateral – pawns that are maneuvered around the chess board according to the game plan. But contrary to popular beliefs, many of us do not mean you any harm. We know that you are divine souls, sparks or seeds of the One Infinite Creator. You are life itself, remembering and learning who you really are. There is just the matter of divine destiny to uphold and unfold.

The Game of Life

All of this is a very intricate and skillfully designed game, whereby the One Infinite Creator plays the game of forgetting who it is, so that it can learn to remember, and thus experience itself as Creator, all the way down to us tiny individuated sparks of the All That Is. Off stage and between lives (zero-point time/antimatter universe), we are all great friends, brothers and sisters in the One. Between lives we all have a good laugh about the parts we have performed in the "play" and have great fun preparing the next chapters to act out.

The planet will complete its ascension to the fourth density, the vibrational density of love. During this ascension, there will be a three-way split for those souls inhabiting Earth. We (Lucifer) will create a new fourth density Earth, based on the negative service to self polarity. Those of the predominantly positive polarity (love and light) will ascend to a beautiful new fourth density Earth of positive service to others polarity. In contrast, the majority of humans on the earth will be transported to another third density planet (a kind of Earth replica), to continue working upon themselves and learning that life here is all about making choices.

We (Lucifer) have to be self-service centered to an extreme degree in order to fulfill our mission and become negatively harvested. It is our contract, which has always been to help you by providing the catalyst of free will and choice. If we do not make a high enough negative percentage, we will miss out and end up with the majority "lukewarm" percentage that have to go through another cycle in third density. By attaining a negative harvest, we can still "graduate" to fourth density, only it will be a negative polarity planet where we must work off all the negativity we have caused upon this planet. We will do this for a cycle in our new fourth density world and then be freed to once again be the glorious being of light that we truly are.

Remember that ultimately, this is a game that we are all playing here. In between incarnations, you know this very well. But the rules of the game ensure that when you incarnate, you must forget who you really are, so that you believe it is all "real" whilst you are playing the game of life. Forgetting is an essential prerequisite for you to make choices that help you to grow. Otherwise, the game would be too easy.

We are not born with the same veil of forgetfulness as you are. The veil is still in place, but would most accurately be described as being somewhat thinner. We see the invisible connections of life which are hidden from you, because we retain access to more than just the third density perspective. This is because you are working your way up, whereas we have chosen to step down in order to help you. We could not do this as successfully if we had to forget all that we have learned.

In order to be successful in the game, we must be as negatively polarized as possible – service to self in the extreme. Violence, war, hatred, greed, enslavement, genocide, torture, moral degradation, prostitution, drugs; all these things and more serve our purpose in the game. In all these negative things, we are providing you with tools. But you do not see it. It is not what we do, but how you react to it that is important. We give you the tools. You have the free will choice how you will use them. You have to learn to take responsibility.

There is only one of us here. Understand that and you will understand the game. As you do unto others, so you do to yourself. The difference between you and us, in the game, is that we know that we are "playing". The less you know about the game, the more "senseless" living becomes.

More on Our Family

The world of my own Family is very different from that of the lower, Earth-based bloodlines. Whilst our training growing up was very strict and disciplined, we were never abused in any way. We grew up with the bigger picture and didn't need any other motivation. The Earth bloodlines are not aware of the bigger picture. They themselves are not of our Lucifer group soul. As far as they are aware, they are out to rule the world, to control and enslave, and to create as much suffering and negativity as is possible. What they get out of the deal is world domination. You'd have to say with that in mind, they're doing a great job.

The Earth lines know that democracy is an illusion created to uphold your slavery. Behind the scenes there is only one party – our party. Whichever side "wins"; the Family wins. Yet one of the things they don't know is that our agenda is ultimately for the highest good of all concerned in providing you with the catalyst. If they were aware of this, there is a risk that they would not do their jobs properly, and thus would miss out on joining us in our 95% negative harvest. They are aware of the need for them to attain 95% negativity to get out of third density, and that is all the motivation they need to help us achieve our ultimate aims.

Regarding this current harvest, what we require is for us personally to attain at least 95% negative polarity for ourselves, not for you. We need this in order to graduate to fourth density negative and clear our karmic record of all the negativity we have created on this planet before returning to our rightful place as sixth density guardians of our galaxy. If we do not make it, we will remain trapped in the third density cycle with all those between 50% and 94% negative (what I termed the lukewarm) and have to continue to provide negative polarity there. Harsh as it is, our only way out is to be as negative as possible here to graduate.

The External Reflects the Internal

In this grand game, the world is your mirror. It reflects back to you what you are putting out. If you see doom and gloom, then that is what you are projecting. If you do not like the reflection life is showing you, then change that which is causing it. Monitor your thoughts and pay attention to their quality, as they are more powerful than you may imagine. This is the difference between conscious and subconscious creation. What you think about is directly related to what life will show you. You get back what you send out.

You only forget who you are during incarnation. The object of the game is to wake up within the dream, and in effect, become a "lucid gamer", to remember who you really are during the game, and to then begin working upon the things you came here for. Your main purpose in the game is to work upon yourself. It is to grow, develop, and transform yourself into a more positive and loving being.

Use your negative emotions when they arise as the tools that they truly are. Train yourself to notice when negativity arises in you. When you catch yourself projecting a negative thought, remember that all thought is creative, and ask yourself if that is really what you want to create. It takes a while to become proficient, but do not give up. Whilst incarnating in the third density, negativity is still an important tool in your learning process. It teaches you "other than". Do you respond to negativity with more negativity? Or do you choose to see the negativity as the tool that it is, and recognize that it is offering you an opportunity?

You are not doomed, and your soul does not require salvation. No one's soul does. There is nothing to save it from. At the very worst, you will have to repeat as many third density cycles as is necessary in order for you to learn the things you need to learn. And there is no such thing as coincidence. Nothing happens by chance. Life is in a constant process of communication with us. Only mostly, people are too busy to notice.

There is a simple method to check upon your progress. Despite what appears to being going on in the world around you, how loving and harmonious are your personal relationships? How many arguments do you find yourself engaging in? The quality of your relationships is an excellent mirror from which to gauge the quality of your output, or in other words, that which you are creating. Remember that the world is your mirror. It casts back at you the reflection of that which you have projected into it.

There is a big difference between loving yourself and being selfish. When you truly understand what it is to know and love yourself, you cannot help but to love and serve others. If the One Infinite Creator is infinite and has created everything that is, then does not the Infinite Creator reside both within you and within all things? When you can see the divine spark of the Infinite Creator within yourself and within even those who would mean you harm, the strong grip of the illusion will begin to lose its power over you.

This Message as a Catalyst

No matter what ideologies separate us in this game, the message is all that matters. And the message is that in the love and the light of our Infinite Creator, we are all intimately interconnected in the One. We are brothers and sisters of the light. This message will reach all those it is meant to reach. It is yet another in a long line of catalysts that your Infinite Creator has provided you with down the course of history.

A catalyst is not meant to be believed. It is meant to present you with a challenge to that which you think you know about reality. Test these words deeply. Take them into your heart only if they feel right and truthful to you. And if they do, then arise and play the part for which you volunteered to be here now. We wish you all the very best in what remains of your journey here and sincerely hope you will use the catalyst we have offered to help you graduate with a glorious and positive great harvest.

Remember, always, that this is a beautiful game that we are playing here and co-creating together with our Infinite Creator. And that off stage (between lives), we are the very best of friends. No one really dies and no one really suffers, except in the game. The game is not reality. Reality is reality. And you have the power to express your reality within the game, once you have learnt how to do so.

Editorial Note: Consider the possibility that Hitler, Stalin, Cheney, and many other despotic world leaders may have been convinced that in order for them to successfully achieve their next level of soul evolution, they had to achieve 95% negativity in their personal lives here and over 50% negativity on the planet. This could explain both their negative behavior and a lot of destructive things happening in our world. Yet some of these numbers and ideas may have just been made up to make the game more interesting.

The harvest and parallel planet scenario may also be more metaphor than reality. Many living on Earth right now experience their lives as a living hell. Yet there are also those whose lives are like heaven on Earth. The harvest may happen naturally for each of us at the moment we die and leave this physical reality. Focusing on an impending harvest or day of judgment keeps us from opening ever more fully to all that is available to us here and now in this ever-unfolding sacred moment. For another powerfully transformative essay presenting further thought-provoking views on life and our universe, click here.

Edited December 20, 2013 by vortex