What is the True Nature of Thoughts?

[4bsolute]

Hello everyone,

 

I would like to gather some deeper knowledge about 'What thoughts really are' here in my waking state.

 

If we substract ourselves here in this human form free from thought, which then surely leads to a deeper understanding in all directions and fills us more with the Universal intelligence - does this mean our Free Will is gone with it?

 

Or What are thoughts actually? What is the real purpose of thoughts? What is the nature of thoughts? And why exactly do we identify with our thoughts these days in such an EXTREME fashion?

 

And what is the best way to USE thoughts after we un-identified ourselves and freed ourselves from it through constant practice, deeper meditations and other non-conceptional methods?

 

Every meditation practitioneer knows it: Thoughts are the Only 'thing' that prevents one from going into a very deep state of meditation.

 

I understand it this way (and ultimatelly I want to perceive it fully! screw my brain on this part) that a thought is energy which is converted and transformed via intention and then directed into manifestation. Basicly a thought in it's true nature, we maybe used it 10k years ago was used Only to manifest AND NOT ENTERTAIN OR IDENTIFY like we nowadays. I mean why??? How could it even get so far?? Insane! I think myself sometimes. Since it always takes 'time' here in this dimension to manifest a thought into an actual 'thing' - and we think so much through out the day that half of it even gets here. Weeks or months later and then we are like 'WTF is this? I dont even need this right now'. Some spiritual beings really must give us the middle-finger sometimes...

 

Anyway,

can you please shed light on this?

Edited November 11, 2013 by 4bsolute

[Marblehead]

Hello everyone,

 

...

 

Anyway,

can you please shed light on this?

I have no light to shed but I think that you might be thinking too much. I do that too sometimes.

 

I would agree that constant random thoughts will interfere with meaningful meditation.

 

Our ability for rational thought has allowed humans to become the dominant species on the planet. (I won't place any value judgements on this.)

 

And it allows us to do more than just graze in the pastures.

[idiot_stimpy]

Play with the idea, that there is actually no separation between thoughts or awareness, or said in another way, the thoughts and the space between the thoughts.

 

 

You may find that it is simply a belief that you hold onto that differentiates thoughts and the space between thoughts, a perception, just as you would have a perception that blue is different to red.

 

At its deepest, if all is really one, then there can be no difference.

[Rara]

Trying to find out "what thoughts are" will be like trying to explain the Tao haha. But some ways I describe this:

 

1) We are not responsible for our thoughts. They seem to just appear as a result of our cultural surroundings. We have experienced a lot and these memories and ideas swim around in front of us.

 

2) There is however a separate part of the mind which is "you". Depending on "your" strength, thoughts will not lead you as much. But if you are not trained, then you will be led by them and you will be none the wiser when things are actually happening in your life.

 

Now my question is this. If we are born a certain way, into a place where we had zero control over where or what we were born into, then how much free will do we really hav ? Am I responsible for my music taste, my sexual preference, love of spicy food? Or am I just a product of all these things?

 

So, when we meditate, is there much point? Can we consciously change things and evolve ourselves? Or do we meditate because we just do? Do we just do these things just the same way our heart just beats?

Edited November 11, 2013 by Rara

[Rara]

Just some things that have been on my mind. I like to challenge my own learning.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Rara

[Marblehead]

1) We are not responsible for our thoughts.

 

Just some things that have been on my mind. I like to challenge my own learning.

 

Yes, Thoughts on thoughts.

 

I am a member of one other internet forum and two of the guys came to the conclusion, as you did above in your point 1), that we are not responsible for our thoughts.

 

I told them, "Come on guys, Take responsibility. All too often we become what we think."

 

I take this stand based on an old Native American story:

 

A grandfather and grandson were sitting and grandfather was telling grandson about life in general.

 

Grandfather said, "There are two wolves inside each of us. One is a good wolf and the other is a bad wolf. These wolves represent our thoughts. They are in constant battle just as are our thought."

 

Grandson asks, "Grandpa, which wolf wins?" (There are always winners and losers, aren't there?) Grandpa replies, "The one we feed."

 

If we feed our negative thoughts that will be the life we will have. On the other hand, if we feed our good thoughts, our thoughts of positivity, that will be the life we will live.

 

Our thoughts are very personal and they are very important as to how we live our life and especially how we interact with other people and our environment.

[manitou]

Until we get to the state that we are capable of being in no-thought (no internal dialogue, as Castaneda would say) what Marbles said above seems true. The wolf that wins is the one we feed. Very nicely put, Mr. M.

 

I think the state of no-thought (or the spaces between the thoughts, as I_Stimpy said) is what the OP was talking about, though. This is a state that we can achieve after practicing this meditation for years. When I first started meditating, I used the method of brushing away a thought with a feather when one came through my mind. I did this for about 25 years. I can now immediately get into no-thought and maintain it until something in the physical world needs my immediate attention. It is also the place from which love of all eminates, an agape love that is unconditional. I had to intentionally get into this mindset immediately yesterday when I picked up a dead cat in the street and placed it back against a hill so it could return to the cycle of life via the vultures. This particular road kill was very ugly, but people were having to drive over it as they turned into a church parking lot and it was traumatizing for people. So the no-thought mindset was valuable on a couple levels: to eliminate any fear of what others would think as I did this; and to see matter as just matter - and also to 'love' the decaying guts by not seeing it as ugly or beautiful, good or bad, just matter. This works. It works for anything.

 

4bsolute said:

 

"If we substract ourselves here in this human form free from thought, which then surely leads to a deeper understanding in all directions and fills us more with the Universal intelligence - does this mean our Free Will is gone with it?"

 

 

As this pertains to free will, I don't think it means that free will has gone anywhere. To be able to access the place of Oneness and non-differentiation means that all options are open to us; that we don't have to act from our personal configuration at all. It's a place of non-judgment, where things are seen as they are, not how we think they ought to be. But this assumes that we have done our best to rid ourselves of judgment, of error thinking, of personality defects through inner work; this seems to be the other component needed to act from this place of no-thought. If we have underlying anger issues, for example, still within us - or people we have not forgiven, or amends we have not made for things we have done to others in the past - then our judgment and actions will always be colored by the underlying issues. Through a glass darkly.

 

4bsolute said:

 

"Or What are thoughts actually? What is the real purpose of thoughts? What is the nature of thoughts? And why exactly do we identify with our thoughts these days in such an EXTREME fashion?"

 

This is like asking why the Absolute is doing what the Absolute is doing, IMO. I don't think we can possibly comprehend this. All we can see is the manifestation of the Absolute's thoughts, which are our thoughts. The thoughts come from the Absolute, from within. The purpose of the thoughts is to little by little morph us into its own image, a perfect being. As said above, there is no 'good thought' or 'bad thought' (although the metaphor of feeding the wolf still applies). But when the wolves are transcended, when one realizes that thoughts just Are and there is no good or bad to it - it seems that our thoughts are the very device that the Absolute uses to perfect us, regardless of how many lifetimes it takes.

 

The Absolute seems to want us to morph back into itself in some odd way. The reversion of the Dao. It wants to come from the void into the vehicle of the physical, IMO.

 

 

4bsolute said:

 

And what is the best way to USE thoughts after we un-identified ourselves and freed ourselves from it through constant practice, deeper meditations and other non-conceptional methods?

 

I think it's to Love our Brother as Ourself.

[yabyum24]

A great question - or collection of questions. I'll deal with them, as far as I understand, or have seen.

 

"If we substract ourselves here in this human form free from thought, which then surely leads to a deeper understanding in all directions and fills us more with the Universal intelligence - does this mean our Free Will is gone with it?"

 

I guess that depends on how you define free will and how 'free' this free will is. Much of what we consider free will to be is a kind of knee-jerk habituated reaction to stimuli. 'Intent' is something else and becomes clearer when the internal dialogue is dropped.

 

"Or What are thoughts actually? What is the real purpose of thoughts? What is the nature of thoughts? And why exactly do we identify with our thoughts these days in such an EXTREME fashion?"

 

Thoughts are a function of the self-grasping mind. Their purpose is to chew up raw sensory data and help or egos digest and assimilate it in a way which gives us 'ownership' and feeds our self-identity. They can both react to and initiate feelings and are part of the wider 'nutriment' we take.

 

"And what is the best way to USE thoughts after we un-identified ourselves and freed ourselves from it through constant practice, deeper meditations and other non-conceptional methods?"

 

Do you USE thoughts or do they USE you? The balance of power shifts after un-identification takes place.

 

"Every meditation practitioneer knows it: Thoughts are the Only 'thing' that prevents one from going into a very deep state of meditation."

 

You would be surprised at how many people ignore that, or consider it irrelevant.

 

"a thought is energy which is converted and transformed via intention and then directed into manifestation. Basicly a thought in it's true nature, we maybe used it 10k years ago was used Only to manifest AND NOT ENTERTAIN OR IDENTIFY"

 

Spot on! The conversion of this energy into internal vocalization is something we develop as we lean speech. Babies and animals don't have it. They are, by default, in first or second jhana - but without awareness of it, as there can be no contrast for them between the two states.

 

When (with full awareness) we rend ourselves from the stream of babble which we are welded to, it's a staggering moment. We can see that all this cr*p is anatta (or not self). A huge part of who and what we 'are' comprises of 'thoughts, feelings, opinions' etc. What about if you no longer have ownership of them?

 

It's liberating not to be a thrall to this any more - then their nature as a key component of dukkha (or suffering) becomes apparent. They torment many people and cause great suffering.

 

Cutting through our addiction and dependence on them is the first step in true meditation but it's not easy as most people (perversely) want to first collect even more thoughts in order to justify doing so.

Edited November 11, 2013 by yabyum24

[manitou]

"a thought is energy which is converted and transformed via intention and then directed into manifestation. Basicly a thought in it's true nature, we maybe used it 10k years ago was used Only to manifest AND NOT ENTERTAIN OR IDENTIFY"

 

Spot on! The conversion of this energy into internal vocalization is something we develop as we learn speech. Babies and animals don't have it. They are, by default, in first or second jhana - but without awareness or it, as there can be no contrast for them between the two states.

 

When (with full awareness) we rend ourselves from the stream of babble which we are welded to, it's a staggering moment. We can see that all this cr*p is anatta (or not self). A huge part of who and what we 'are' comprises of 'thoughts, feelings, opinions' etc. What about if you no longer have ownership of them?

 

 

Spot on back atcha! The idea of the manifestation is contained within the void, the unexpressed potentiality. The void expresses itself into the energy to manifest; the internal vocalization gives it form. In everything, we should look for the idea behind it to understand it fully.

 

Thoughts, feelings, opinions - these are merely a result of our conditioning; where and when we were born into the world; what we were taught by well-intentioned mis-guiders in our youth, the error of which keeps the snowball rolling downhill, getting larger and larger, and getting more set in over the years, resulting in ego that gets its hackles up when someone doesn't agree with us, or thinks we're 'wrong'. In order to shrink the snowball we must go back to the origin. A journey into self to re-find the top of the mountain. Where and how did the error thinking begin?

 

I suspect we actually did 'choose' our circumstances before birth, depending on what in our soul we needed to learn in this incarnation.

Edited November 11, 2013 by manitou

[yabyum24]

In order to shrink the snowball we must go back to the origin. A journey into self to re-find the top of the mountain. Where and how did the error thinking begin?

 

I suspect we actually did 'choose' our circumstances before birth, depending on what in our soul we needed to learn in this incarnation.

I agree but I'm not sure that thinking is an error (or fall) per se. It serves a function - the knowledge of good and evil - the expulsion from the garden (as it's portrayed elsewhere). This is the apple delivered by the serpent power of Shakti - the volitional impulse which conditioned our rebirth.

 

So, the call is to re-enter 'the garden'. It's guarded by the flaming sword of the cherubim (sunset or sunrise), so is best entered during the in-between times of dawn or dusk (the colour of Shiva's skin). In the space between our thoughts and breaths.

 

We seek the thing which would re-unite us with the Ultimate - the fruit of the tree of life (samhadi).

[traveler]

OK, I'm going to take a crack at this topic.

 

Let us for a moment consider thought. What is it, my friends, to take thought? Took you then thought today? What thoughts did you think today? What thoughts were part of the original thought today? In how many of your thoughts did the creation lie? Was love contained? And was service freely given? You are not part of a material universe. You move your body, your mind, and your spirit in somewhat eccentric patterns for you have not completely grasped the concept that you are part of the original thought. ... All things, all life, all of the creation is part of one original thought. (Law of One, session 1)

 

4bsolute said: Every meditation practitioner knows it: Thoughts are the Only 'thing' that prevents one from going into a very deep state of meditation.

 

I was teaching a meditation group a method of getting a quiet mind last week. I asked them to see the atoms of their body then shift their focus to the space between the atoms. It's amazing how this simple act can quiet the mind. One lady asked why I was asking her to do this, because she never figured out how. Another person told her that he envisioned floating in the space between the planets instead which she thought was an easier method. So, I explained that the left brain understands the atoms or the matter that makes up the body, but when asked to focus on the space between the atoms it refuses to do it, saying that this is impossible, and so the left brain turns off which allows your right brain to take over your conscious state. The right brain doesn't function through the thought process and so you get a quiet mind in this way.

 

4bsolute said: I understand it this way (and ultimately I want to perceive it fully! screw my brain on this part) that a thought is energy which is converted and transformed via intention and then directed into manifestation.

 

Manifestation is brought about by thought empowered by emotion. It takes both brain-halves to manifest. The further you are along your path of spiritual evolution, the less time there is between your thought/emotion and physical manifestation. This buffer-zone is here to protect us from our thoughts.

 

idiot_stimpy said: Play with the idea, that there is actually no separation between thoughts or awareness, or said in another way, the thoughts and the space between the thoughts.

 

You may find that it is simply a belief that you hold onto that differentiates thoughts and the space between thoughts, a perception, just as you would have a perception that blue is different to red.

 

At its deepest, if all is really one, then there can be no difference.

 

Oh, that is deep! I like it. Very good. On the spiritual path there are times when thoughts and emotions completely disappear. Then there are times when there is so much Light streaming through you that one second of this downloading intelligence could fill many pages of English and then not really explain what you learned. Those are the extremes. At times, you many find this void taking you over for large amounts of time, even months or over a year. Sometimes the bliss may fill your world for extended periods. In the end, they merge. The Light or bliss and the non-beingness become a third thing. This third thing is not bliss nor is it devoid of thoughts and emotions. It is something new - a new kind of thought that does not fill the mind with chatter; the emotion of love is predominant but you are capable of feeling the whole spectrum of emotions as well.

 

So, I wholeheartedly agree that in the end, at the bottom of our existence, there is a place where thoughts and awareness are the same thing.

 

Manitou said: I can now immediately get into no-thought and maintain it until something in the physical world needs my immediate attention. It is also the place from which love of all emanates, an agape love that is unconditional.

 

As this pertains to free will, I don't think it means that free will has gone anywhere. To be able to access the place of Oneness and non-differentiation means that all options are open to us.

 

In a state of Totality, all options are open to us.

 

Rara said: Now my question is this. If we are born a certain way, into a place where we had zero control over where or what we were born into, then how much free will do we really have? Am I responsible for my music taste, my sexual preference, love of spicy food? Or am I just a product of all these things?

 

I'll quote Dumbledore: It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.

 

4bsolute said: Or What are thoughts actually? What is the real purpose of thoughts? What is the nature of thoughts? And why exactly do we identify with our thoughts these days in such an EXTREME fashion?

 

What are thoughts? I read "Zero Limits" by Joe Vitale and Dr. Len. Here is a summary of the book's ideas mingled with my own observations as I recorded them back in 2010:

 

Thoughts arise from the subconscious mind, not the conscious mind. A study was done showing that brain activity starts BEFORE the conscious thought by part of a second. Where do thoughts come from? They seem to bubble up out of nowhere. Joe says that we actually have no control over what thoughts appear in the conscious mind, we only have free will to do what we want with the thought once it shows up. You may think, "I sure want a candy bar," and then you have a choice: to pick one up and eat it or say, "No, that's not what I want,' and abstain.

 

P'taah says that those issues which cause us emotional pain pop up in our thoughts because it is our inner mind saying, "This needs transmuting into Love." Joe says that if the thought comes up, you need to take responsibility for it and love it, causing a transmutation, which causes a clearing and joy.

 

Emotional Freedom Technology (EFT) begins with a phrase: "Even though I have this problem, I deeply and completely accept myself." This is saying that we take responsibility for the problem, we acknowledge it, without judgment, and release it into the light.

 

Gary Craig (founder of EFT) said to write down every memory (you'll find about 200 of them, he said) and then clear them all with EFT. This should take about three months. Autogenic Therapy claims the same thing: That over time, all the tension will be released. The programs are held in tension throughout the body. "Pain is resistance to feeling", says P'taah.

 

P'taah further says that it's the judgment which causes the pain. Dr. Len says that it's the program which causes pain. Judgment and programs appear to be the same thing. A thought pops out of the subconscious, or the circumstance which presents itself, and we feel pain which is telling us to pay attention. Dr. Len says that this program is our 100% responsibility and we need to clear it.

 

There is something in our consciousness which is causing this pain all around, not just for you but for everyone. If you can clear it in you, it is cleared for everyone. You can heal others, you can heal your past or future lives just by taking responsibility for the pain. Every subconscious program is shared by all. It is only a matter of tapping into them one at a time and clearing them.

 

One of the big messages that I got from reading Zero Limits and P'taah's words is that there is no separation. Really, no separation. We are all part of the original thought.

 

Emotional pain is the pain of separation.

 

Rara said: So, when we meditate, is there much point? Can we consciously change things and evolve ourselves? Or do we meditate because we just do? Do we just do these things just the same way our heart just beats?

 

We meditate so that we can quiet our minds and when we become quiet our body chemistry opens up a portal into other worlds and we begin to communicate with the deeper parts of our self and attract guides. We also meditate because in this state the healing process is accelerated.

 

Marbelhead said: Grandson asks, "Grandpa, which wolf wins?" (There are always winners and losers, aren't there?) Grandpa replies, "The one we feed."

 

If we feed our negative thoughts that will be the life we will have. On the other hand, if we feed our good thoughts, our thoughts of positivity, that will be the life we will live.

 

Yes. Perfect explanation. There are so many ways of describing concepts. it is not the descriptions that count, only the concepts. If the "bad wolf" is pushed away or shunned, this strengthens the shadow-self. To truly overcome the negative in our lives we must look the "bad wolf" squarely in the eyes and say, "I know who you are. You are me." And then that wolf will leave and not return. When you focus on the positive parts of your life they naturally become more a part of your life experiences. It's like you don't have to judge which wolf is bad and which is good, but acknowledge that both are who you are. It is by this recognition (with unconditional love) that the bad wolf diminishes and the good wolf grows stronger.

 

Affirmation: My life experiences are wondrous parts of Self manifest into the physical world. I take responsibility, without judgment, for who I am, embracing every part of Self with unconditional love.

 

I was talking to a friend a few years back and discussing religion. He was a newly hatched Christian and he was not liking what I was saying. In exasperation, he finally said, "Then you don't believe in the Devil!" I replied, "I won't say that I don't believe in the Devil, only that he does not seem to be living in my neighborhood." You get to a point where the "bad wolf" dwindles down to a very small puppy and then ceases to exist in your world.

 

Manitou said: The purpose of the thoughts is to little by little morph us into its own image, a perfect being. As said above, there is no 'good thought' or 'bad thought' (although the metaphor of feeding the wolf still applies). But when the wolves are transcended, when one realizes that thoughts just Are and there is no good or bad to it - it seems that our thoughts are the very device that the Absolute uses to perfect us, regardless of how many lifetimes it takes.

 

Absolutely.

 

yabyum24 said: I guess that depends on how you define free will and how 'free' this free will is. Much of what we consider free will to be is a kind of knee-jerk habituated reaction to stimuli. 'Intent' is something else and becomes clearer when the internal dialogue is dropped. ... Do you USE thoughts or do they USE you? The balance of power shifts after un-identification takes place.

 

Yes. Our free will which leads to free actions create chaos, causing "knee-jerk habituated reaction to stimuli" until, little by little, a new way of reacting to this world begins to emerge. I love the words of Hatonn and I'll let him explain:

 

Become aware of your Creator. Become aware of His desire, and when you know this desire you will know your own, for you and your Creator are one, and you are one with all of His parts and, therefore, all of your fellow beings throughout all of the creation. When you know His desire you will feel it. There will be no more confusion. There will be no more questions. You will have found what you have sought. You will have found Love, for this is the desire of your Creator: that all of His parts express and experience the Love that created you. This may be found simply, in meditation. No amount of seeking within the intellectual concepts of your people, no amount of careful planning or careful interpretation of the written or spoken word will lead you to the simple truth. (Hatonn)

 

yabyum24 said : Thoughts are a function of the self-grasping mind. Their purpose is to chew up raw sensory data and help our egos digest and assimilate it in a way which gives us 'ownership' and feeds our self-identity. They can both react to and initiate feelings and are part of the wider 'nutriment' we take.

 

Here is a new take on the topic, and an important one. Could this be restated to say that thoughts become the building blocks for our evolving awareness? They define our beliefs which are only thoughts we have thought repeatedly. At some point the ego is integrated and stops being such a bossy thing. Our new thoughts and desires become the new building blocks for a new spiritually evolved self. The Christians call this being Born Again.

 

Yabyum24's closing statement cannot be improved upon in its perfection.

 

Yabyum24 said: The conversion of this energy into internal vocalization is something we develop as we lean speech. Babies and animals don't have it. They are, by default, in first or second jhana - but without awareness or it, as there can be no contrast for them between the two states.

 

When (with full awareness) we rend ourselves from the stream of babble which we are welded to, it's a staggering moment. We can see that all this cr*p is anatta (or not self). A huge part of who and what we 'are' comprises of 'thoughts, feelings, opinions' etc. What about if you no longer have ownership of them?

 

It's liberating not to be a thrall to this any more - then their nature as a key component of dukkha (or suffering) becomes apparent. They torment many people and cause great suffering.

 

Cutting through our addiction and dependence on them is the first step in true meditation but it's not easy as most people (perversely) want to first collect even more thoughts in order to justify doing so.

Edited November 11, 2013 by traveler

[traveler]

yabyum24 said: the call is to re-enter 'the garden'.

 

The veil of King Solomon's Temple had cherubim embroidered on it. The idea is that by entering the Holy of Holies you are reentering the Garden of Eden which is the goal. We start there and return to it. How do we get past the flaming sword? By embracing it. That is the meaning behind the Five Points of Fellowship in Masonic ritual. It is embracing the sword, thus gaining admittance to the next level of the game.

 

Years ago, I used a meditation in which I drew the image of Jesus to me, seeing him standing right in front of me and then we hugged. Then He stepped into my Temple-body and we merged. Then with Jesus kneeling with me at the altar of my body (which is the heart) we gave the whole world a loving hug. I repeated this meditation for three days straight before I had the mystical experience I was seeking.

 

yabyum24 said: so is best entered during the in-between times of dawn or dusk (the colour of Shiva's skin). In the space between our thoughts and breaths.

 

I also agree with this because, ultimately, this is where you will do the Great Work.

Edited November 11, 2013 by traveler

[Marblehead]

It's like you don't have to judge which wolf is bad and which is good, but acknowledge that both are who you are. It is by this recognition (with unconditional love) that the bad wolf diminishes and the good wolf grows stronger.

Yes, that is the next step. Acknowledging that we do sometimes have negative thoughts. But to allow them to flow away as opposed to feeding them.

 

 

Edit to add: The space (emptiness) between the atoms. Not much there. Yes, that would work.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Marblehead

[manitou]

Wow, on this thread. Just wow.

 

Interesting, Traveler, that you brought the word emotion into the mix. I don't think anybody had to this point. I think that most folks, when they think of emotions, think of 'emotions in the extreme', when it is to the point where we can actually physically feel the thought - as fear or love. But emotions can be looked at with different eyes - that which motivates us to Express. There must be an 'emotion' of the minutest degree to motivate us to do anything. Reflex would be an immediate reaction, hardly involving thinking at all, other than the initial observation - but which is done because of prior experience. No thought involved. But to Express, to move our arm or leg, to gaze out the window, to make even the smallest movement - this seems to imply that there is the tiniest of emotions under it. Emotion is expression - to emote, to act out. Even if so small it's unrecognizable, there was something in us that caused us to move. Emotion at its very beginning, before getting large enough to manifest into something we feel, or something that is recognizable.

 

To my way of seeing, Love is the ultimate, the absolute, the very beginning and the very end. Perhaps this loving Void just got so loving that it just exploded, causing what they call a big bang. I suspect this is why the universe appears to be expanding. Still. Until it goes back into itself, as the DDJ would say, like a bellows. (Yutang)

 

When we start to reflect love in more of our actions and tilt the balance in the direction of love as opposed to hate, this is when the chemicalization occurs, IMO.

Edited November 11, 2013 by manitou

[Rara]

Ditto.

 

But is there really a bad wolf? That is my question.

 

Maybe I need to sit and find that out for myself...

[traveler]

Is there such a thing as sin? Or is it a product of our perceptions only?

 

Atonement corrects illusions, not truth. Therefore, it corrects what never was. (ACIM, Teacher's Manuel)

[traveler]

Manitou said: I suspect this is why the universe appears to be expanding. Still. Until it goes back into itself, as the DDJ would say, like a bellows.

 

Could it be that we, as the microcosm, go through this same expansion and contraction cycle? Think of life as a vortex (which is a complex thought-form); there is the wide part and the narrow part, like an hourglass, which repeats over and over. The quiet state of un-identification takes place in the squeeze, the narrow part of the vortex where time seems to stand still. "The balance of power shifts after un-identification takes place," then we are off again into chaos and imbalance, to create new opportunities to experience life.

Edited November 11, 2013 by traveler

[manitou]

Could it be that we, as the microcosm, go through this same expansion and contraction cycle? Think of life as a vortex (which is a complex thought-form); there is the wide part and the narrow part, like an hourglass, which repeats over and over. The quiet state of un-identification takes place in the squeeze, the narrow part of the vortex where time seems to stand still. "The balance of power shifts after un-identification takes place," then we are off again into chaos and imbalance, to create new opportunities to experience life.

 

 

It sure seems that way. I can go from introversion for a while into extroversion, depending on my energy cycle. The vortex / narrow part would be time and space all crunched together - the illusion of the expansion is gone. The expansion would be where the manifestations take place, would be my guess. But as time is all here and now, the expansion is where Time is apparent, drawn out. Like the inside of the bubble as opposed to the bubble-producing fluid - like a kid's bottle with a round blowey-thing. The bubble is the fluid, actually - but the inside of the bubble is our breath. Whoa. Our breath, what a metaphor that is. A molecule would take 'time' to get around the inner circumference of the bubble, whereas if it's still in the bottle it's all mooshed together in a colloid and there is no illusion of time.

[manitou]

I agree but I'm not sure that thinking is an error (or fall) per se. It serves a function - the knowledge of good and evil - the expulsion from the garden (as it's portrayed elsewhere). This is the apple delivered by the serpent power of Shakti - the volitional impulse which conditioned our rebirth.

 

So, the call is to re-enter 'the garden'. It's guarded by the flaming sword of the cherubim (sunset or sunrise), so is best entered during the in-between times of dawn or dusk (the colour of Shiva's skin). In the space between our thoughts and breaths.

 

We seek the thing which would re-unite us with the Ultimate - the fruit of the tree of life (samhadi).

 

Actually, I fully agree with this too. The metaphor of the garden is a good one, and the concept of sin can be compared to error thinking. You're right, it isn't error at all. There is no such thing as good and evil, that is only in the mind of the beholder. Like if you ask a soccer mom what Evil is, she could say that Evil is the dope dealer standing on the corner trying to sell dope to her kid. But if you ask the dope dealer what Evil is, he could say that it was the SOB that ripped him off for his product last night. Einstein, he was onto something, lol.

 

It's only error-thinking if we designate it so. I could consider that my early years were full of bad decisions, alcoholic decisions. I could say they were errors, my decision. But were they really? That so-called error-thinking placed my feet on the road to recovery, which led me here to you. Not too many accidents, if you ask me.

[yabyum24]

It sure seems that way. I can go from introversion for a while into extroversion, depending on my energy cycle. The vortex / narrow part would be time and space all crunched together - the illusion of the expansion is gone. The expansion would be where the manifestations take place, would be my guess. But as time is all here and now, the expansion is where Time is apparent, drawn out. Like the inside of the bubble as opposed to the bubble-producing fluid - like a kid's bottle with a round blowey-thing. The bubble is the fluid, actually - but the inside of the bubble is our breath. Whoa. Our breath, what a metaphor that is. A molecule would take 'time' to get around the inner circumference of the bubble, whereas if it's still in the bottle it's all mooshed together in a colloid and there is no illusion of time.

Spot on with the bubble analogy. This is the way I see time/space formed in our subjective way. When there is no bubble - there is neither subject nor object - neither time nor space.

 

The bubble has two poles which both face inwards: subject and object. Two sides of the same substance but unaware of that fact. Like in a dream, everything we experience is mind-made. Subject (us) all other beings, buildings, sky whatever - the entire event is inside the bubble.

 

This is volition/karma, rending non-duality apart to create the time-space bubble in which "we" can exist.

 

You may like this:

http://spiritual-minds.com//returntoshiva.htm

 

Namaste _/\_

[yabyum24]

Hi Traveler,

I don't know about thoughts becoming new building blocks of belief for an integrated ego. What if we could dare to go beyond even that? How deep would the rabbit hole go?

 

Could this be restated to say that thoughts become the building blocks for our evolving awareness? They define our beliefs which are only thoughts we have thought repeatedly. At some point the ego is integrated and stops being such a bossy thing. Our new thoughts and desires become the new building blocks for a new spiritually evolved self.

[soaring crane]

Like the inside of the bubble as opposed to the bubble-producing fluid -

 

totally OT but this reminded me of a poem from a long, long time ago:

 

~~~The Dewdrop~~~

 

Have you ever tried

to caress

the iridescence

inside a drop of

green morning dew?

 

The drop will

move for you,

you can make it

run to the tip

of a blade of

emerald green grass

and leap to the

earth in a free-fall

dance of opalescent

surrender.

 

But you can't touch the magic inside of it!

 

Loving you makes me feel

as though the gods

who govern the beauty

in drops of rain

granted me privilege

to brush my fingers

once

across their most

cherished creation.

[9th]

You could look at thoughts like radio signals, and your mind like a radio receiver. Deriving your "identity" by imputing "ownership" of your thoughts is misleading. Its also a specific hindrance in certain endeavors.

 

That isnt to say they are meaningless, because in fact, the particular internal resonance which aligns with them is perhaps the most relevant aspect of the moment in your particular life. Therefore much can be learned by implication alone.

 

In terms of signal (being) to noise (thoughts) ratio, its an applicable metaphor but the real concern may not be the most obvious part. In other words, I dont think there is much point in trying to stop thoughts to access being - IMO the best advice in that direction is to regard them as you would the sounds of traffic outside your window in a city setting.

 

When inner alignment reaches a certain height/depth, thoughts cease to appear in an almost alarming way. There is no effort involved in it. The energy they would require for maintenance is then applied to perception in a more direct way. While it may not be entirely accurate to consider the mediation of thoughts as necessarily "false", such mediation is unnecessary to begin with in regards to perception per se. Thoughts serves a different purpose altogether.

[traveler]

yabyum24 said: How deep would the rabbit hole go?

 

Forever.

 

9th said: I don't think there is much point in trying to stop thoughts to access being - IMO the best advice in that direction is to regard them as you would the sounds of traffic outside your window in a city setting.

 

Another way of saying this is to describe meditation as delving deeper and deeper into your center. At some point, it gets to very quiet. You can still sense your mind's chatter going on but it is all happening on the outside, like in another room, closer to the surface of your consciousness.

 

9th said: When inner alignment reaches a certain height/depth, thoughts cease to appear in an almost alarming way. There is no effort involved in it. The energy they would require for maintenance is then applied to perception in a more direct way.

 

Yes. A vary good way of describing this. "There is no effort involved in it." Eventually, the chatter in the outer room of our mind ceases out of lack of being listened to. What we give our attention to grows, what we ignore fades. Then there is this awareness that a great something is looking at us, that we are the focus of something huge outside ourselves (or perhaps just beyond the center of ourselves). An intense focus. Like a rabbit caught in the headlights of a speeding car. We can't move. All thoughts and emotions have flown away. This is the squeeze I mentioned earlier, the tight spot in the vortex.

Edited November 11, 2013 by traveler

[suninmyeyes]

Yes 9th said it .

 

 

Being without thoughts and loosing a referance point can be devistating for some .

 

Thoughts are sounds , that freeze into light and than vibrations , than they are transmuted and personalised into physical as actions (or not ). It is a part of existance , how the universe is made .

Fine tunning body and mind instrument .