What is the True Nature of Thoughts?

[Marblehead]

Ditto.

 

But is there really a bad wolf? That is my question.

 

Maybe I need to sit and find that out for myself...

Yes, that is part of "your" path. You have to do the walking.

[manitou]

Someone said: (I'm afraid to go back in the thread, I always lose my post. I'm really bad at this computer thing)

 

"Could this be restated to say that thoughts become the building blocks for our evolving awareness? They define our beliefs which are only thoughts we have thought repeatedly. At some point the ego is integrated and stops being such a bossy thing. Our new thoughts and desires become the new building blocks for a new spiritually evolved self."

 

I guess this is the yin and yang of it. On one hand, our yang, (thoughts) must be organized and re-emphasized toward the positive; however our yin (call it our inner being, receiving stimulus) must be cleared out so that the clarity is achieved. It is only by the mixture of the two that the alchemy occurs. Know Thyself, as great one said. And yet the outer thoughts, our expression, must be tamed as well. What a setup.

 

 

9th said:

 

"You could look at thoughts like radio signals, and your mind like a radio receiver. Deriving your "identity" by imputing "ownership" of your thoughts is misleading. Its also a specific hindrance in certain endeavors."

 

 

There is another metaphor that would be applicable here. The sun and the moon, which would directly relate to our involvement in the microcosm/macrocosm awareness. The sun (the yang) is the emitter of the light, or thought.. (the thought being emitted from our brain, growing from a whisper of an idea); the rays emit outward. The moon (the yin) is the receiver, capable of reflection of the light but not emitting of its own volition. One could also look at the yang as being thought-work (where we consciously learn concepts), and yin (where we ELIMINATE unneeded blockages for clarity and elimination of ego-warping reception and perception).

 

 

 

Hi Traveler,

I don't know about thoughts becoming new building blocks of belief for an integrated ego. What if we could dare to go beyond even that? How deep would the rabbit hole go?

 

I still think the inner and outer must be integrated for balance. I don't know if it could be done on thoughts alone, or education, or learning from a master, or any yang-like searching. The yin, the inner, must be included and merged for the integrated ego. Of course we always keep ego - it's necessary for our survival on this plane. It's just a matter of being able to subjugate it, and this is where we need to learn the inner skills, removing the negatives like jealousy, fear, resentment, etc. so that we do not have to react out of ego. When the negatives are removed, we have 360 degrees of choice of action in any situation. If the ego hasn't been tamed, we only have 180 degrees of choice. If someone says "I hate you", if we haven't tamed ego, we must react and say "I hate you too" back to them (too simple I know, but I think the idea is clear enough). If we have taken the time and effort to remove the blockages we have accumulated, then we go back to reacting with 360 degrees of choice. We can choose to either Love or Hate in any situation, because we are not bound with the 'opposite' tendency to reaction. This is true freedom, as I see it.

Edited November 12, 2013 by manitou

[Marblehead]

Interesting perspective with the yang/yin association.

[Rara]

Yes, that is part of "your" path. You have to do the walking.

 

I'm not convinced I do the walking considering my thoughts are per-determined from experiences that I have had.

 

If I play "bad wolf", can I go and murder someone of my own free will? You're implying that I can. But I can't...I've never killed anyone and have no desire to.

 

I am unaware of any "conscious" decision to be this way...I just so happen to be this way.

 

So how responsible am I for my own actions? Have I chosen to walk this path or do I just do it anyway...?

 

ED - But the "bad wolf" who DOES murder...is there justification at their end? Does it seem like the "right thing to do"? I've heard many cases where some have said yes. We would call them mentally ill or deranged. But is this the full story?

Edited November 12, 2013 by Rara

[traveler]

Manitou said: If we have taken the time and effort to remove the blockages we have accumulated, then we go back to reacting with 360 degrees of choice. We can choose to either Love or Hate in any situation, because we are not bound with the 'opposite' tendency to reaction. This is true freedom, as I see it.

 

I like that one. If I may use the example, this is like being capable of celibacy. Sex becomes a conscious choice after that, not an urge which is out of control.

 

Rara said: But the "bad wolf" who DOES murder...is there justification at their end? Does it seem like the "right thing to do"? I've heard many cases where some have said yes. We would call them mentally ill or deranged. But is this the full story?

 

My psychologist friend tells me we are all mentally ill.

 

Rara said: I am unaware of any "conscious" decision to be this way...I just so happen to be this way.

 

I ran into this snag a few years back when I naively thought that our personalities were who we are. A study of Tourette's syndrome showed me that our personalities are chemical-based. There was this great jazz drummer who had Tourette's. His spasms would throw him into some very bizarre rhythms which he incorporated into his drumming, making him an exceptional jazz drummer. But Tourette's other symptoms made it hard for him to keep a job. He began taking haldol, a drug for depression which regulates the serotonin in the brain. His Tourette's symptoms went away and his personality changed drastically, making him a modal employee but a mediocre drummer. He compromised by going off haldol on the weekends when he enjoyed him drumming.

 

OK. That is not an isolated example, is it. Some people are wondering if DMT isn't responsible for our spiritual experiences. Meditation is said to produce DMT which then alters our perception of life. Overdoses of oxytocin has a great effect on the personality. Deep breathing creates DMT and hugging creates oxytocin, some claim.

 

So, Rara, your question certainly has validity. We are born with a certain chemistry, BUT we can also alter that chemistry. I have altered my chemistry. We all do this by what choices we make within our limitations. Choices made of a certain nature expand the spectrum of what choices we can make in the future. I have been told that the chakra lights are what creates our personality, on that level of consciousness. So, we have chemistry on the physical level and chakra lights on a deeper level. If we work on our chakra lights, then that makes a larger variety of choices available to us. For instance, if we would like to be a loving person but find ourself, time and again, acting out towards others in a hateful way, then open the heart chakra, which creates more inner love. If we'd really rather be a visionary, then wake up the third eye. And so forth.

 

Or, like the book, Color Code, says, work on the character traits directly and rework our personality until we are endowed with the gifts we desire. There is always room for work here. This is, of course, my opinion, and subject to change at any time. But, I used to be an angry SOB. I had a real problem. I almost never get angry any more. We all need healing from time to time.

Edited November 12, 2013 by traveler

[Marblehead]

I'm not convinced I do the walking considering my thoughts are per-determined from experiences that I have had.

 

If I play "bad wolf", can I go and murder someone of my own free will? You're implying that I can. But I can't...I've never killed anyone and have no desire to.

 

I am unaware of any "conscious" decision to be this way...I just so happen to be this way.

 

So how responsible am I for my own actions? Have I chosen to walk this path or do I just do it anyway...?

 

ED - But the "bad wolf" who DOES murder...is there justification at their end? Does it seem like the "right thing to do"? I've heard many cases where some have said yes. We would call them mentally ill or deranged. But is this the full story?

I will start out with a quote from one of the "Kung Fu" tv series: A man cannot do what his conscience will not allow.

 

Perhaps not murder, but perhaps a need to kill in order to protect an innocent, someone you love and have sworn to protect. Murder and justifiable homicide are differnt conditions even though the end result is the same.

 

I hold to the concept of free will so yes, you have the choice to feed either the good wolf or the bad wolf. But I do agree with you that our past experiences and education will effect which path we chose to travel. But it is still a choice. Even the poorest of the poor have choices.

 

I agree that oftentimes we are not aware of why we made the choice we made. Sometimes we have to act on impulse and other timew we have the time to make a reasoned, logical (in our mind) choice.

 

But I will still suggest that you are (as am I) 100% responsible for your actions. As long as we have functioning brains capable of descriminating between "right" and "wrong" we are responsible.

 

It would be hard to justify murder. Homicide is, in many cases, justifiable. Self defense is a perfect example.

[Rara]

I like that one. If I may use the example, this is like being capable of celibacy. Sex becomes a conscious choice after that, not an urge which is out of control.

 

 

My psychologist friend tells me we are all mentally ill.

 

 

I ran into this snag a few years back when I naively thought that our personalities were who we are. A study of Tourette's syndrome showed me that our personalities are chemical-based. There was this great jazz drummer who had Tourette's. His spasms would throw him into some very bizarre rhythms which he incorporated into his drumming, making him an exceptional jazz drummer. But Tourette's other symptoms made it hard for him to keep a job. He began taking haldol, a drug for depression which regulates the serotonin in the brain. His Tourette's symptoms went away and his personality changed drastically, making him a modal employee but a mediocre drummer. He compromised by going off haldol on the weekends when he enjoyed him drumming.

 

OK. That is not an isolated example, is it. Some people are wondering if DMT isn't responsible for our spiritual experiences. Meditation is said to produce DMT which then alters our perception of life. Overdoses of oxytocin has a great effect on the personality. Deep breathing creates DMT and hugging creates oxytocin, some claim.

 

So, Rara, your question certainly has validity. We are born with a certain chemistry, BUT we can also alter that chemistry. I have altered my chemistry. We all do this by what choices we make within our limitations. Choices made of a certain nature expand the spectrum of what choices we can make in the future. I have been told that the chakra lights are what creates our personality, on that level of consciousness. So, we have chemistry on the physical level and chakra lights on a deeper level. If we work on our chakra lights, then that makes a larger variety of choices available to us. For instance, if we would like to be a loving person but find ourself, time and again, acting out towards others in a hateful way, then open the heart chakra, which creates more inner love. If we'd really rather be a visionary, then wake up the third eye. And so forth.

 

Or, like the book, Color Code, says, work on the character traits directly and rework our personality until we are endowed with the gifts we desire. There is always room for work here. This is, of course, my opinion, and subject to change at any time. But, I used to be an angry SOB. I had a real problem. I almost never get angry any more. We all need healing from time to time.

 

This then leads me to drugs...psychedelics mainly. Something that creates a new spiritual experience of love and heavenly surroundings. I mean, don't some shamans use Ayahuasca? And doesn't this responsible for producing DMT too?

 

I have also read that that meditation teachers, even some Zen schools, teach this as nothing more than a hallucination/mind trick (even if produced in meditation - i.e the killing of the vision of Buddha) and such things should be ignored.

 

I may not be 100% up on my facts, but this is what I have come to understand so far...Please let me know if you have any more info!

 

I will start out with a quote from one of the "Kung Fu" tv series: A man cannot do what his conscience will not allow.

 

Perhaps not murder, but perhaps a need to kill in order to protect an innocent, someone you love and have sworn to protect. Murder and justifiable homicide are differnt conditions even though the end result is the same.

 

I hold to the concept of free will so yes, you have the choice to feed either the good wolf or the bad wolf. But I do agree with you that our past experiences and education will effect which path we chose to travel. But it is still a choice. Even the poorest of the poor have choices.

 

I agree that oftentimes we are not aware of why we made the choice we made. Sometimes we have to act on impulse and other timew we have the time to make a reasoned, logical (in our mind) choice.

 

But I will still suggest that you are (as am I) 100% responsible for your actions. As long as we have functioning brains capable of descriminating between "right" and "wrong" we are responsible.

 

It would be hard to justify murder. Homicide is, in many cases, justifiable. Self defense is a perfect example.

 

I totally agree with the first few sentences, yes. And maybe having a choice is right, I don't know. Even if it's a limited one...I do see what you're saying. But say I like apples, and I'm ok with oranges, and I'm asked to chose one. Guess what? I chose an apple...

 

Did I chose or was that mind made up for me simply by just being me and having certain taste? Can I train myself to understand that the apple is the bad wolf? Can I train myself to not like apples, permanently?

 

As for the comment of being 100% responsible for our actions, I would say yes to a degree...but of course my above questions just make me wonder whether this is just the fact that we have a society built on a belief that being responsible is important. How often do we have to justify our actions in every day life? Too often. But only because someone asked that of us first. The media is plastered with stories on how people have to explain themselves in court and then a jury decides whether they were right or wrong. I wonder how many people really know the answers to what they're asked in court!

 

Another example is: why did I chose to work at such and such? Then all of a sudden, I have to tell a story on why I think I like a certain type of work. When I'm in a job interview, my honest answer is always *shrug shoulders and think....I don't really know! I just like it here.* Sure I waffle on about what skills I possess and how much I fit in...but really, isn't that obvious? To me it is. It's on my CV/resume after all. So I always end up thinking in my own mind that I realise that I'm talking a load of what they want to hear, but the honest truth is, I didn't really have a choice. I wanted to go for this job, so I did...

 

I sure could have decided to not go for the job. But if I'm in the interview chair, was that ever really an option? Surely if I acted it was because I felt the impulse. If I didn't, surely it wasn't for me...?

 

Do you remember when we had that discussion about "training to be natural"? I think this is what I mean. If someone is NATURALLY a violent murderer, can he be condemned? Maybe if chemistry, as traveler said, is the sole purpose behind morals and thought, then maybe. But I don't think this could just be the case. Thoughts are influences swimming around...I couldn't say that all murderers (I know I use this a lot but I just can't think of anything else off the top of my head right now lol) have chemical imbalances or are a result of drug issues or whatever. I could probably say with more confidence that they grew up with some wrong ideas passed down to them though. Maybe they were taught as a kid that revenge is sweet. Maybe they play too many violent computer games or watch too many violent films. Either way, what choice does this person have to meditate and hear the good wolf if all they see around them is "evil"?

[traveler]

Could we look at desires vs. choices? Are desires deeper rooted than choices? If so, then to a change our desires would effect the surface stuff we call choices. For instance, what if you could change your preference for apples over oranges on a fundamental root level so that you now automatically chose oranges over apples if given a choice? Then there is the very common paradox: you want a thing but another part of you knows that different choice would, ultimately, be better for you.

Edited November 12, 2013 by traveler

[manitou]

I still think we're stuck in dualism if we think things are Good or Bad.

 

My view is going to come off as sociopathic here (especially funny coming from a retired cop) but I delved into the Right and Wrong for years during my career. Agreed, society mandates that there must be rules, and they must be followed. Therefore homicide is Wrong.

 

But what would the Dao say? The Dao would say that we are but straw dogs. Straw dogs were just that---straw. They were ceremonial replacement for concepts or persons. If we are Straw Dogs, that would infer that the point of beginning of one's life or the point of ending is of absolutely no consequence. if this is the case, why is homicide such a horrible thing, looking at it from the perspective of the Dao. The life manifestation (the straw dog) merely snaps back up into the stream of consciousness. What difference does it make when and where it makes its appearance?

 

But of course there are other considerations. The family remaining. The ripping out of their guts when their family member is killed. Certainly this is a consideration. But is it not possible that this was part of the plan too, that the Dao (or the impulse toward the One) would have them go through this experience to bring them more clarity of understanding? We're all links of a chain and the chain just wants to go Home, IMO.

 

The other consideration would be the damage it does to the murderer's psyche or soul. Again, this would be part of their learning process. To act out on impulse (or even planned homicide) which would ultimately implement the changes for that person to get closer to the light....perhaps by remorse and the desire for atonement. At-one-ment.

 

I think understanding this to the fullest is above our pay grade.

[manitou]

Could we look at desires vs. choices? Are desires deeper rooted than choices? If so, then to a change our desires would effect the surface stuff we call choices. For instance, what if you could change your preference for apples over oranges on a fundamental root level so that you now automatically chose oranges over apples if given a choice? Then there is the very common paradox: you want a thing but another part of you knows that different choice would, ultimately, be better for you.

 

 

I think that choices are learned from past experience. It is done with the head, with our rational mind. It often stems from pain, love, learned behavior and the false labeling of Good or Bad. It's taught to us by our parents, our teachers, our peer group, our fear of what others will think. (If we don't do something, for example, our friends will think us stupid or foolish) Of course nobody wants to admit that they are swayed one iota by the approval or disapproval of others, but I think the person who says that hasn't dug down too deeply. But the Sage? He would probably not make a choice at all and watch it all play out. The Sage would go with the flow, foresee problems before they arise and make the minor tweak necessary to avoid the problem altogether. He would Let It Be, because the Sage would know that the whole purpose of this exercise we call Life is merely a training ground for ultimate reunification with the One, the reversion of the Dao.

 

As to desire, if one is tending toward enlightenment, they would have learned over many years that desiring things is a pain in the butt, and would have learned to be satisfied with things as they Are, not as we think things Should Be. They wouldn't worry about the amount of Stuck Energy they had; they would merely do their work and let the chips fall as they may, knowing with full faith that the Dao will always have organized things perfectly if left alone. The higher attitude will always manifest higher results, and the Sage would have learned this over the years.

[9th]

Could we look at desires vs. choices? Are desires deeper rooted than choices?

 

As always it depends on what you mean by those particular words. Words dont have inherent meaning - the given idea is only invested by proxy, at a personal level, more or less in accordance with a consensus agreement on definitions.

 

Is "desire" deeper than choice? Thats an odd question, but look at it this way - can you choose not to eat? Can you choose not to sleep? Im sure you desire to eat or sleep at some point or another, but I doubt you can choose to override that desire forever.

 

Many people seem to discount the power of their instincts and the role biology plays in their life - not just simple things like eating and sleeping (and fucking), but (somehow) less obvious desires like ownership of territory, maximizing comfort and safety, expanding personal influence, etc. The human animal has progressively abstracted their own instincts through reliance on symbolic thought and dependence on civilization and society. The biological imperatives have not disappeared or vanished in the thin air of "advanced evolution", but rather have become overlaid with rationalization and conceptual abstraction and obscured by the diffused consciousness from countless generations of conditioned response. The modern human is not any more advanced than other animals, it just expresses "mindlessness" in a different way. The only difference is in the potential for development, which unlike other species, is a personal matter alone. Humans can develop themselves on their own without waiting for mother nature to do it for them. Some see paradox in this, as it is only accomplished by becoming equal to nature - not superior to it - and thereby releasing the overcompensations and imbalances which engender their own "unnatural" dynamics.

 

Taking choice a bit further - can you choose to jump up into the sky and fly off like a bird? How about something much more simple - can you choose not to act on your own feelings? People who cannot even choose to resist their own biology dont really have choice to begin with - as they are only choosing between one imbalance or another. This where the idea of developing "will" comes in regarding cultivation. Why is it that wu-wei is not already how all people go about their lives anyway? This could be something for you to ponder.

[Marblehead]

I totally agree with the first few sentences, yes. And maybe having a choice is right, I don't know. Even if it's a limited one...I do see what you're saying. But say I like apples, and I'm ok with oranges, and I'm asked to chose one. Guess what? I chose an apple...

 

Did I chose or was that mind made up for me simply by just being me and having certain taste? Can I train myself to understand that the apple is the bad wolf? Can I train myself to not like apples, permanently?

But what if the apple is old and wilted? Wouldn't you go for that fresh looking orange?

 

Yes, you can train yourself to do anything that is within your capabilities and capacities.

 

As for the comment of being 100% responsible for our actions, I would say yes to a degree...but of course my above questions just make me wonder whether this is just the fact that we have a society built on a belief that being responsible is important. How often do we have to justify our actions in every day life? Too often. But only because someone asked that of us first. The media is plastered with stories on how people have to explain themselves in court and then a jury decides whether they were right or wrong. I wonder how many people really know the answers to what they're asked in court!

Nietzsche says that the superman is beyond good and evil.

 

Lao Tzu says that the sage is beyond praise and blame.

 

The sage and the superman did what needed to be done. That was all. Nothing more, nothing less. And both would accept full responsibility for their action and would not even justify their action it they thought that it didn't really matter to anyone else.

 

Another example is: why did I chose to work at such and such? Then all of a sudden, I have to tell a story on why I think I like a certain type of work. When I'm in a job interview, my honest answer is always *shrug shoulders and think....I don't really know! I just like it here.* Sure I waffle on about what skills I possess and how much I fit in...but really, isn't that obvious? To me it is. It's on my CV/resume after all. So I always end up thinking in my own mind that I realise that I'm talking a load of what they want to hear, but the honest truth is, I didn't really have a choice. I wanted to go for this job, so I did...

 

I sure could have decided to not go for the job. But if I'm in the interview chair, was that ever really an option? Surely if I acted it was because I felt the impulse. If I didn't, surely it wasn't for me...?

Yeah, but that is a social/political game most play. Most even create untruths in order to make their case sound even better than it really is. If you were self-employed you wouldn't have to play that game but you likely still would in order to convince potentail clients to contract with you or at least do business with you.

 

Do you remember when we had that discussion about "training to be natural"? I think this is what I mean. If someone is NATURALLY a violent murderer, can he be condemned? Maybe if chemistry, as traveler said, is the sole purpose behind morals and thought, then maybe. But I don't think this could just be the case. Thoughts are influences swimming around...I couldn't say that all murderers (I know I use this a lot but I just can't think of anything else off the top of my head right now lol) have chemical imbalances or are a result of drug issues or whatever. I could probably say with more confidence that they grew up with some wrong ideas passed down to them though. Maybe they were taught as a kid that revenge is sweet. Maybe they play too many violent computer games or watch too many violent films. Either way, what choice does this person have to meditate and hear the good wolf if all they see around them is "evil"?

I don't think I have ever claimed that all people are naturally good. I have known a number of evil people during my lifetime. Yes, they were naturally evil. They had a miserable life and wanted to make everyone they knew have a worse life than they had.

 

Yes, I would agree that much of it is chemistry. Some of it is mental disability. And some of it is a result of how they have been treated by others.

 

But those are the exceptions, not the rule. The normal person with a properly functioning brain can train themself to stop doing what others tell them they are "supposed" to do and just be natural. If they have a good heart they will be feeding the good wolf and let the bad wolf wander in the darkness.

 

Just because someone has been evil to us doesn't mean we have to return the meanness. We can practice avoidance. We can walk away. (Yes, I am still working on that one.)

 

Indeed, we do have the choice. We can respond or keep our mouth shut. Our choice. (Yes, that is another work-in-progress for me.)

[LeoViridis]

Is there such a thing as sin? Or is it a product of our perceptions only?

 

The concept of sin is largely based on morality, and what is percieved as wrong or unjust. Morality in turn is based on desired traits humans should cultivate, however, it's rather hard to pinpoint what exactly is moral and not, since morality can't really be measured, and some actions, even though they may be inspired by good will, can produce more ill effects than good effects. It is then hard to judge the person who executed such an action, since some may say he acted morally due to his good intetions, while others may argue he acted immorally due to the effects of his actions. Rather than "sin and punishment" one could argue that there is balance in the universe, due to which one will have all his decisions/actions/thoughts/etc. "balanced out" and returned to him in equal quantity and quality, i.e. karma. This doesn't mean that he is punished or rewarded for his actions, just that his actions have a consequence, which will have a direct effect on the initiatior of the action at one point in his life, the afterlife or even any of his future lives. What goes around, comes around, in other words.

[RongzomFan]

According to my tradition thoughts are merely vayu / wind / air.

[manitou]

Just because someone has been evil to us doesn't mean we have to return the meanness. We can practice avoidance. We can walk away. (Yes, I am still working on that one.)

 

Indeed, we do have the choice. We can respond or keep our mouth shut. Our choice. (Yes, that is another work-in-progress for me.)

 

 

This is powerful stuff.

 

The most important mantra that I use when in an iffy situation is "I don't care how you feel about me, I'm going to love you anyway." It doesn't get any more powerful than that. 360 degrees of choice. That is power, to choose to love even when we perceive that others don't like us for some reason. (Actually, all they're seeing in me is a mirror of what is bothering them inside themselves.) To carry that mantra around is to always be prepared, to always know what to do, to never worry about your response. It will always be the response of love, the high path. The kind path, even when someone is dissing us. Smile, find the humor in the situation, and realize that that person too is the Dao, is the Absolute because they too have the little black spots of awareness in the center of their eyes. But....this does take ego work, learning to tame it.

 

And when 9th said above "The modern human is not more advanced than animals", I think this is almost an understatement. Sometimes I think our animals, our loyal companions, are more advanced than humans. They seem to have the capacity for total unconditional love, those that are conditioned in that way. How many of us can say that?

 

Malikshreds said:

 

Wanna explore thoughts? Look for the spot before a thought appears. And contemplate that.

 

It's like seeing where a child comes from. You look for its parents.

 

 

 

This would be a good method for searching out one's own inner dynamics, to see where a thought originates, to look at our own motivation. To actually see the part we play in the circumstances we are manifesting, and to take responsibility for the manifestation. We are not Victims. We just think we are. We are actually attracting to ourselves exactly what we need - usually we get the same lesson over and over until we get the idea. It's like attracting the same type of man or woman over and over again, which is what we do. Even if we think 'this time this person is different than all the rest," sooner or later we realize that their inner dynamics entangle with our own in a very specific way, a sort of 'lock and key' entanglement, even if in the beginning they appeared to be exactly the opposite. Sooner or later the other side of the coin shows.

 

The only way to stop this dynamic is to look within, explore our thoughts and tendencies and reactions, and to reconfigure our inner self. We must be ruthless in this reconfiguration or no progress will be made. After all, this dynamic has probably been in play since early childhood, most likely as a response to one parent or the other (or some other who has heavily influenced our formative years when the template was cut).

 

Edited November 13, 2013 by manitou

[Marblehead]

According to my tradition thoughts are merely vayu / wind / air.

I would agree that this is the way it "should" be. But sadly, I think, is that too often we try to reify these thoughts and this is where we get into trouble.

[Rara]

 

 

But the Sage? He would probably not make a choice at all and watch it all play out. The Sage would go with the flow, foresee problems before they arise and make the minor tweak necessary to avoid the problem altogether. He would Let It Be, because the Sage would know that the whole purpose of this exercise we call Life is merely a training ground for ultimate reunification with the One, the reversion of the Dao.

 

Nicely put!

 

Imagine if all on earth were sages...that would be very interesting indeed!

 

But yeah, this has made me think. So perhaps the meditative training that we do doesn't make us "good" per se, but impartial, as also mentioned by Lao Tzu. Keeps us away from petty worldly affairs...i.e the perception of good nd bad...

[4bsolute]

Okay this is getting heavy, I 'thought' about a short-packed answer but I see you want to discuss this further so please feel free to do so.

 

Thank you very much for all your contributions so far and like said: Please continue.

 

 

Our thoughts are all connected, there is no seperation. The only seperation there is, is our resistance to the true nature of evrything that already exists. Mainly through conditioning from past and social believes. Drop them, all of them. Also what Guru X said, be your own Guru.

 

Everything is spirit. Spirit over matter, be part of this process and master your experience here on this planet and be rapidly transformed with it.

 

I wish you all very smooth, daily applications and many many chances to easy drop what still holds your mind active in terms of useless, entertaining information.

 

 

Edit: I just understood what entertainment really is. Next topic soon.

Edited November 13, 2013 by 4bsolute

[manitou]

Edit: I just understood what entertainment really is. Next topic soon.

 

 

Perhaps it's avoidance of self.

[traveler]

Rara said: Imagine if all on earth were sages...that would be very interesting indeed!

 

Back to the chemical angle to behavior. Does the herb, sage, clean the person or place, as in smudging, or does it change our perception through inner-body chemistry?

 

LeoViridis said: Rather than "sin and punishment" one could argue that there is balance in the universe, due to which one will have all his decisions/actions/thoughts/etc. "balanced out" and returned to him in equal quantity and quality, i.e. karma. This doesn't mean that he is punished or rewarded for his actions, just that his actions have a consequence, which will have a direct effect on the initiatior of the action at one point in his life, the afterlife or even any of his future lives.

 

Cause and effect, not sin and judgment. Or, moral codes which have a foundation in truth. Two sides of the coin. So to speak in absolutes on this subject is not practical. I stand corrected. All would agree that murder is morally wrong if committed in cold blood, like for pleasure or anger. On the other hand, to not worship God on a certain day or in a certain way is not a moral issue, to me. But in some circles this is a serious breech of moral conduct. Perhaps we should, if living among a people with expectations of this type, comply to avoid consequences. What is "sin" in one social setting is not "sin" elsewhere. Let's use nudity as an example; at the local hot springs this is OK, but not sitting on a park bench downtown.

 

Ah yes, our thoughts seem to have wandered away from the topic. It's like when a circle of people pass a whispered phrase one to another around the circle to find the original phrase to be quite different from the end product.

[4bsolute]

Perhaps it's avoidance of self.

 

Of course dear, one of many.

Edited November 13, 2013 by 4bsolute

[RongzomFan]

I would agree that this is the way it "should" be. But sadly, I think, is that too often we try to reify these thoughts and this is where we get into trouble.

 

The key is to recognize the conceptualizing mind.

[Marblehead]

The key is to recognize the conceptualizing mind.

That was easy for you to say. Hehehe.

[RongzomFan]

Thoughts are just vayu / wind / air.

 

Totally insubstantial.

[manitou]

Back to the chemical angle to behavior. Does the herb, sage, clean the person or place, as in smudging, or does it change our perception through inner-body chemistry?

 

 

This is so good. Once the chemicalization has taken place, life becomes a gradual tendency toward the light, in all things. There are no decisions to be made any more, not really. The condition of our own inner self becomes the most important thing of all, everything else pales next to that. The highest road is intuitively shown and intentionally taken.....