Mind work and meditation in Daoism

[Vitalii]

Master Zhang San Feng said:

Sitting Forgetting

 

If you want to practice the way to attain reality, first get rid of warped behavior.

 

After disconnecting your mind from external things, inwardly observe correct awareness. When you notice a thought arise, you should immediately extinguish it. Extinguishing thoughts as they arise, strive to effect calm quietude.

Next, even enough you may not have obvious fixations, still floating random thoughts are also to be completely eradicated.

Working diligently day and night, never wavering for a second, just extinguish the stirring mind, do not extinguish the shining mind; just stabilize the open mind, do not stabilize the dwelling mind.

Do not rest on anything, yet have the mind always present.

This method is inconceivably subtle, and its benefits are very profound. It is possible only for those who already have affinity with the Tao and whose faith is undivided.

_________

Translated by Thomas Cleary.

 

[Vitalii]

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 said:

第七：論打坐

 

7. About Dazuo

 

但有絲毫動靜思念，即不名靜坐。能如此者，雖身處於塵世，名已列於仙位

 

 

"As long as there is the slightest thought of motion or stillness, this is not what I call sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo). Those who can sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo or 打坐 - Dazuo) in the real sense may be physically present in the material world, but their names are already in the ranks of the Immortals."

[yabyum24]

Like it. Nicely said.

[JohnC]

I love this.

 

Brings clarity to the difference in sitting and forgetting (what sounds to me a hell of a lot like zazen, vipassana, etc) and different forms of energy work, where you focus on the lower dantien, mco, alchemy, etc.

 

That just because you are sitting still, and moving into a meditative state, that there is something about the intent of your sitting and application of your awareness that changes the results of your practice.

 

I'm sure any form of stillness (neigong, etc) moves you towards more insight, AND when you are just focused on insight you develop that specifically in a greater degree.

 

John

Edited November 11, 2013 by JohnC

[ChiDragon]

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 said:

 

第七：論打坐

 

7. About Dazuo

但有絲毫動靜思念，即不名靜坐。能如此者，雖身處於塵世，名已列於仙位

 

"As long as there is the slightest thought of motion or stillness, this is not what I call sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo). Those who can sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo or 打坐 - Dazuo) in the real sense may be physically present in the material world, but their names are already in the ranks of the Immortals."

 

If there was a slightest activity in your thought, then it was not considered to be 靜坐, quiet sitting. Those who can accomplished that, even though, one who dwells in the dusty world, one's name has been listed already as an immortal.

 

 

Note: Dusty world, 塵世, is an esoteric Buddhist term for "materialistic world".

[opendao]

Oh, now the same text by Zhang Sanfeng appears under something he has no relation to. I mean Zhang Sanfeng has no relation to "mind work and meditation in Daoism". It is obvious Neidan text of the school of Zhang Sanfeng and it has no methods, but tips for students about Xing work, that is not a "meditation" by definition and there is no mind involved in that process.

 

 

Master Zhang San Feng said:

Do not rest on anything, yet have the mind always present.

This method is inconceivably subtle, and its benefits are very profound. It is possible only for those who already have affinity with the Tao and whose faith is undivided.

 

Key is here. Key is given by the teacher: "It is possible only for those who already have affinity with the Tao and whose faith is undivided."

 

How do you understand these words? Dawei probably you understand that? Anybody else?

 

From http://thetaobums.com/topic/19929-zuowang/:

 

"Zuowang appears in the 8th century, under clear influence of Tientai Buddhist insight meditation (samatha vipassana) as a form of consciously reorganizing one's perception of self and world.

 

...

 

The energy work done in neidan, with however many methods, is thus both similar and different to the zuowang and chan methods. "

 

Obviously, scholars have no understanding and initiation into these practices. "Both similar and different" LOL.

[opendao]

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 said:

 

第七：論打坐

 

7. About Dazuo

 

但有絲毫動靜思念，即不名靜坐。能如此者，雖身處於塵世，名已列於仙位

 

 

"As long as there is the slightest thought of motion or stillness, this is not what I call sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo). Those who can sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo or 打坐 - Dazuo) in the real sense may be physically present in the material world, but their names are already in the ranks of the Immortals."

 

if we quote only parts we lilke, we can get any meaning and support any theories. Who can quote Wang Chungyang's saying about "practising during 100 years" and comment it?

[Neophyte]

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 said:

 

 

"As long as there is the slightest thought of motion or stillness, this is not what I call sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo). Those who can sitting in a motionless calm and silence (静坐 – Jinzuo or 打坐 - Dazuo) in the real sense may be physically present in the material world, but their names are already in the ranks of the Immortals."

 

I wish that were true, but I can't say for sure that it is true. I don't think that their names are already written in the ranks of the immortals. I think that it means that achieving this state is the hardest part, and that once it is achieved, and the practicer can enter this state easily, then progressing from that point will be easy, and immortality will likely be gained.

 

But I might be wrong. Personally, I am getting closer every day to achieving jinzuo/dazuo. When I sit in meditation, I can block out more and more and reach deeper states, than I ever could before. Soon, I think that I will be easily able to reach the void easily and be able to maintain that state. What Vitalii quoted fills me with hope and joy, because I want my name to be in the ranks of the Immortals.

[Vitalii]

Master Zhang San Feng said:

"If you have set your heart on the supreme Tao, and your faith is firm and in earnest, first accept three precepts, then act in accord with these three precepts with consistent heedfulness, and you will attain the true Tao.

These three precepts are as follows: one, simplify involvements; two, remove desire; three, quiet the mind. If you diligently practice these three precepts without slacking or backsliding, then the Tao will come of itself, without any intention of seeking the Tao on your part. A classic says, “If people can always be clear and pure, the whole universe will come to them.” Speaking from this point of view, should we not have faith in this quintessential method?

But the contentiousness of the ordinary mind is firmly ingrained through long habit, and it is very difficult to stop the mind by these precepts. One may be unable to stop it, or one may still it temporarily and then lose that stillness. Battling with it, now failing, now succeeding, one pours with sweat. With continued practice over a long, long time, eventually it is possible to tame the mind.

Do not give up this work, which has far-reaching consequences, just because you are temporarily unable to collect the mind."

Edited November 12, 2013 by Vitalii

[LaoZiDao]

Mind work and meditation is nothing related to Dao.

 

A mind with thoughts during practice is normal, if you have no thoughts at all you should be some kind of God already. What's important is no attachment..but of course gradually and according to your level of achievements. If one was to cut all attachments forcefully one would cause them selfs damage.

 

Meditation that you talk of is cultivation of Yin (Xin) without Ming. Stillness causes Yin, movement causes Yang. Simple.

[Vitalii]

Master Zhang San Feng said:

"But the contentiousness of the ordinary mind is firmly ingrained through long habit, and it is very difficult to stop the mind by these precepts. One may be unable to stop it, or one may still it temporarily and then lose that stillness. Battling with it, now failing, now succeeding, one pours with sweat. With continued practice over a long, long time, eventually it is possible to tame the mind. Do not give up this work, which has far-reaching consequences, just because you are temporarily unable to collect the mind.

Once you have gained a bit of tranquillity, then you must consciously stabilize it at all times, whatever you are doing, even in the midst of activity and turmoil. Whether you have anything to do or not, always be as if unminding. Whether in the midst of quietude or in the midst of clamor, let your will be undivided.

If you try to control the mind too intensely, this will produce illness, a symptom of which is fits of madness. If the mind does not move, then you should let it be, so that relaxation and intensity find their balance Constantly tuning yourself, controlled yet without fixation, free yet without indulgence, you can be in the midst of clamor without aversion, you can handle affairs without vexation. This is true stability."

[BaguaKicksAss]

I wish that were true, but I can't say for sure that it is true. I don't think that their names are already written in the ranks of the immortals. I think that it means that achieving this state is the hardest part, and that once it is achieved, and the practicer can enter this state easily, then progressing from that point will be easy, and immortality will likely be gained.

 

But I might be wrong. Personally, I am getting closer every day to achieving jinzuo/dazuo. When I sit in meditation, I can block out more and more and reach deeper states, than I ever could before. Soon, I think that I will be easily able to reach the void easily and be able to maintain that state. What Vitalii quoted fills me with hope and joy, because I want my name to be in the ranks of the Immortals.

 

For the moments while this is achieved, yes I do believe it is possible.

[Antares]

When you read Zhang San Feng' words about the method you always should remember that:

 

The Writings Attributed to Master Zhang San Feng:

Nobody really knows whether or not one of the numerous persons called "Master Zhang San Feng" actually wrote these short treatises or commentaries attributed to him. They may have been documents compiled, redacted, edited, or composed by persons associated with a Taoist school where Master Zhang San Feng is respected or revered. They may have been compiled or written hundreds of years after Master Zhang San Feng died or disappeared. This is also true for writings attributed to Lao Tzu. The official Taoist cannon consists of thousands of documents composed over many centuries since 500 BCE. The documents are part of the extensive Taoist written tradition, and the exact author of a particular document is sometimes uncertain.

 

---------------------

 

This is actually the way how qigong people distort Tradition. I see that these ZSF's(?) words were about Xing method. Now the question why Vitalii posts here so much about Da Zuo and Xing methods. And almost nothing at all about how to cultivate Ming I would prefer to read traditional texts rather than somebody's opinions who has no connection to the authentic Tradition.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Antares

[Vitalii]

If you do not like my posts just do not read them.

[opendao]

If you do not like my posts just do not read them.

 

It's impossible. You are a teacher and have a business, and it changes the level of responsibility dramatically. Ordinary people can make mistakes and have their own, sometimes very stupid, opinions. But you cannot. And because very often your opinion contradicts the traditional opinion, you will see critics. Nobody cares about your personality, but when you promote something, you are responsible for that.

 

You want to go against the tradition and insist that Zhang Sanfeng wrote about "mind work and meditation" - it's your choice. I told you that you don't understand what level Zhang Sanfeng describes and why it won't work for you and 99% of the people on this forum (including myself). You don't understand Wang Chungyang. Not because you're not smart, but because you are not initiated. So stop complaining to moderators and shut up others , that's your fate, you made your choice many years ago.

[BaguaKicksAss]

It's impossible. You are a teacher and have a business, and it changes the level of responsibility dramatically. Ordinary people can make mistakes and have their own, sometimes very stupid, opinions. But you cannot. And because very often your opinion contradicts the traditional opinion, you will see critics. Nobody cares about your personality, but when you promote something, you are responsible for that.

 

You want to go against the tradition and insist that Zhang Sanfeng wrote about "mind work and meditation" - it's your choice. I told you that you don't understand what level Zhang Sanfeng describes and why it won't work for you and 99% of the people on this forum (including myself). You don't understand Wang Chungyang. Not because you're not smart, but because you are not initiated. So stop complaining to moderators and shut up others , that's your fate, you made your choice many years ago.

 

So you thought stalking every single post of his would be a good idea? :facepalm:

[Antares]

So you thought stalking every single post of his would be a good idea? :facepalm:

 

You think that supporting scam on the TTB is good idea? You should understand that Vitalli posts here not in order to discuss it but to promote his self made taoi$$m based on books and qigong seminars which he wants to sell here as "tradition". This is sad how some people greed for money and do harm to others

Edited November 13, 2013 by Antares

[Vitalii]

So you thought stalking every single post of his would be a good idea? :facepalm:

Over the several years, opendao and his friends have been spreading lies about me and Zhendaopai, and now he has come to this forum with the same target.

Therefore, they cling to each of my posts, trying to vitiate my threads and inventing something that I have never said.

[Antares]

Vitalii, I am not a friend of opendao, I have never seen him. I remember you were qigong teacher (with no lineage) few years ago but now you teach and sell neidan (no lineage, no school in China). You have no lineage and can not prove your qualification. You do not respect other people and your goal is business. Sad but true ©

[opendao]

here the prove that Wang Chongyang is not so easy to understand: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32406-building-the-foundation-and-inner-alchemy/page-9#entry495627

[opendao]

So you thought stalking every single post of his would be a good idea? :facepalm:

 

Nope. But he makes so good mistakes, and it's much easier to illustrate ideas starting with his mistakes. I don't like to lecture, I prefer "bell" analogy. If you hit, it tolls.

[opendao]

 

Over the several years, opendao and his friends have been spreading lies about me and Zhendaopai, and now he has come to this forum with the same target.

Therefore, they cling to each of my posts, trying to vitiate my threads and inventing something that I have never said.

 

Poor boy. My target is not you, you think too high about yourself. My target is people, who struggle trying to find a salvation in this world of misleading information

 

But let's finish that: you tell us the source of your profound knowledge, name the teachers in your lineage who taught you Ma Danyang and Zhan Boduang schools (that's written on your site now, before you claimed Liu Dongbin lineage!). If they are valid and know about you (for sure, we will ask them directly) I will say this on this forum, it will prove that I'm telling lies. If not, then there are no proves. As always, though.

Edited November 13, 2013 by opendao

[Vitalii]

Vitalii, I am not a friend of opendao, I have never seen him. I remember you were qigong teacher (with no lineage) few years ago but now you teach and sell neidan (no lineage, no school in China). You have no lineage and can not prove your qualification. You do not respect other people and your goal is business. Sad but true ©

 

Antares, my lineage has always been open to public. I have learnt Daoist arts from my teacher, Chinese Grandmaster Lu Shiyang.

You simply rephrase statements of opendao that are not true.

 

P.S.

Who wants to know more about my School, welcome to website

 

Who has any questions about my School, welcome to forum

[opendao]

 

Antares, my lineage has always been open to public. I have learnt Daoist arts from my teacher, Chinese Grandmaster Lu Shiyang.

Ok, Lu Shiyang. Old story directly from Castaneda books. Lu Shiyang came to Russia, to an unknown city, without speaking Russian. And found Vitalii there, who spoke no Chinese, practising in the park. After that, Lu Shiyang disappeared and nobody could meet him anymore.

Being in China, we asked about ZhenDao and Lu Shiyang: for some strange reasons, nobody knows him. Nor from Ma Danyang lineage, nor from Zhang Boduan, nor from any other (my teacher met A LOT of masters from various traditions). How come?

So the question is still the same: what is the lineage between misty Lu Shiyang and very exact Ma Danyang. Yuxianpai is very small school now, all teachers are really well known, so tell us the truth.

And please stop promoting your web-site, because there is nothing related to this question there.

Edited November 13, 2013 by opendao

[Antares]

Antares, my lineage has always been open to public. I have learnt Daoist arts from my teacher, Chinese Grandmaster Lu Shiyang.

 

Do you want me to post here the printscreen of your old website where you STATED that you teached qigong which you learned from books and fishy seminars?