Abortion: not for or against but discussion only please.

[chegg]

I will talk about this subject from the point of view of what I have read and understand about spirituality and also from what I have experienced first hand (references not included). Please feel free to criticise/add comments.

 

This has been an extremely sensitive subject for both religious and non religious people alike. There are many differing laws on abortion and many more differing opinions. I am in no way an expert in this field and don't claim to be but I will 'give it a go' anyway. Lets look at a few points for consideration:


From Wiki:

Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, resulting in or caused by its death.^[2] An abortion can occur spontaneously due to complications during pregnancy or can be induced, in humans and other species. In the context of human pregnancies, an abortion induced to preserve the health of the gravida (pregnant female) is termed a therapeutic abortion, while an abortion induced for any other reason is termed an elective abortion. The term abortion most commonly refers to the induced abortion of a human pregnancy, while spontaneous abortions are usually termed miscarriages.

Some Points:

1. Christian mysticism tell us that every human being has an eternal component to them (the soul). After the human being dies, everything that is experienced is not lost but is kept by the soul. After a time, the soul incarnates into another human being and the process goes on [ref].

2. There is no shortage of spirit souls wanting to incarnate in this world. From what I have read and heard, spirit souls are literally having to queue up in order to incarnate as human beings [ref].

3. The theosophists/buddhists say that after birth, the spirit-soul is not concerned with the human individual for the first seven years of its life [ref.]. It is also important that, at this early stage, the child is not to overburdened with too many studies or activities which clamp down on its freedom of thought and activity (i.e., more creative activities or things which the child prefers to do is more beneficial) . This allows the formation of a proper connection between the spirit and the child (ref. Rudolf Steiner / Steiner Schools).

4. Another thing I must mention is that children are the one and only greatest gift from GOD to both men and women. There are many gifts from GOD but this one is at the absolute top of the gift list. It takes an enormous (and an unbelievably painful) amount of humility to know this directly [ref. = me]. Even if you lived for 500 years you may never come to this realization. This is how disconnected we are from GOD. Some buddhists say that when a child is conceived it is a miracle [ref]. I call it the 'miracle of miracles'. Not only because of the apparently small chances of fertilization during love-making [ref] but because of all the hidden, unseen forces that must come into play at the time of conception [ref]. Rationally, the odds are heavily stacked against conception. I'd guess by more than 10 million to one [documentary ref.] - yet it still happens and does so consistently.

5. An embryo or foetus has no physical consciousness [ref]. It may have a 'will' to live but it has not yet developed a 'free will'. The embryo / foetus may have an awareness [ref].

6. There is a large amount of energy expended in conceiving and rearing a child and this taxes the energy from both the mother and father [ref.].

7. If the child is unwanted, it may develop serious psychological problems both early on and later on in life.

8. One of the 10 Commandments states that 'Thou shall not murder'. Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with "malice aforethought", and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter). It seems that abortion could fall under a type of homicide such as manslaughter rather than murder.

9. There exist other divine laws which most of humanity may not be aware of. Such as the 'law of one' and the 'law of cause and effect', i.e., there may be serious consequences later on down the track for someone who deliberately sets out to terminate a pregnancy.

10. To have a child/children is a 'command' [ref.]. The shamans 'saw' that one of GOD's 'commands' was to have a child or children. The 'command' did not say that couples must continue having children [ref].

11. A terminated embryo or foetus may continue to grow and develop in the afterlife [ref.]. This suggest that it will not have the same opportunities and experiences that it would have if it were to grow up in this physical world. It will not develop in the way we do as human beings.

12. There is a difference between a two week old embryo and and 9 month old unborn foetus. This difference is only physiological. Spiritually, the consciousness of a fertilized embryo and and 9 month old foetus are possibly the same [ref.].

13. According to buddhism, the spirit enters the child when it takes its first breath [ref.].

14. It is almost certain that an abortion will cause changes in the pregnant woman's personality and in some cases a female will develop serious, difficult to repair, psychological problems such as depression, anxiety and suicidal tendencies.


In summary:

1. There is an eternal soul which develops by 'acquiring' experiences from an incarnated human being.
2. There are many spirit souls wanting to incarnate in this world.
3. It takes seven years to develop a good human-spirit soul connection.
4. Its the 'miracle of miracles' to conceive a child.
5. An embryo or foetus has no physical consciousness.
6. There is a large amount of energy expended in conceiving a child.
7. If the child is unwanted it may develop serious psychological problems.
8. Abortion is likely to be classed as homicide rather than murder in the eyes of some civil laws.
9. Divine laws may be violated.
10. To have a child or children is one of God's commands.
11. A terminated embryo or foetus may continue to grow and develop in the afterlife.
12. There is only a physiological difference between a embryo and and 9 month old unborn foetus.
13. Spirit enters the child when it takes its first breath.
14. Woman's personality may permanently change for the worse after the termination of a pregnancy.

Discussion:

Now, if we were to terminate an embryo, we would deny the spirit-soul a chance at development as outlined in point 1. We could argue that the soul can then wait a bit longer and find somewhere else to incarnate as a human being. But remember in point 2. that there are many other souls waiting 'in queue' also. In other words we have denied the spirit-soul the only chance is has to incarnate for what could be a really long time to come.

Point 3. would suggest that not much is lost by having an early termination due to the immature nature of the embryo, the lack of connection with the spirit-soul and the absence of any experiences. Point 4. states that a woman is given the 'miracle of miracles' and by termination she throws that gift away.

It is unlikely that the embryo suffers during an abortion by point 5. It may have an awareness however, that it is going to be destroyed but this is not in the way in which we would understand it. If the child is unwanted it may develop serious psychological problems and may be detrimental to both the mother, father and child (points 5. and 6.) The child will probably develop psychological problems if it is raised by a mother or father that do not want it. This alone, I would think, does not completely justify terminating a pregnancy.

You are not committing murder by terminating a pregnancy according to point 8 however it could be argued that you are killing a living entity and is a form of homicide. Point 9. suggests that there may be karmic consequences for the parents who deliberately terminate a pregnancy. These consequences my be big or small and occur later on in their lives. GOD's command is to have children but this does not mean you have to have a particular child from an unwanted pregnancy as mentioned in point 10. Point 11. suggests that it is better for a child to grow and develop in this world rather than in the after life. This possibly contradicts point 13. where there is no spiritual connection until the foetus takes its first breath. This implies no afterlife for an aborted foetus. The woman's mental health is affected in a permanent way in point 14 which is just one of many consequences from point 9. and point 6..

From a spiritual perspective, it is not a good idea to have an abortion. I'd say you would be in violation of GOD's laws. This, however, has never stopped humanity from violating other divine laws. Which other Divine laws is humanity continually violating ?.... probably all of them [ref.].

From a health perspective, it is not a good idea to have an abortion either. Bringing up an unwanted child is also not a good idea from a health perspective for the child or the mother and father.

Should the free will of the host (pregnant woman) be respected, protected and upheld always (without any attempts to apply force to her or coerce her in any way) ?

Would Jesus force anyone to do anything against their free will even if they were harming themselves or harming others ?

Is breaking one divine law (taking away the free will of a pregnant woman) to fix another (sustain the life of an unborn child) the right way to go (both morally and spiritually) ?

Conclusion:

Abortion is an improper way of life. GOD is life. Abortion is death. Its the mother/father's choice - they have free will. They must, at least, be made aware of the consequences? ....Anyways, I must also spare a thought for the large number of unwanted children, homeless children, cases of child abuse, divorced parents, murders, senseless killings and horrible wars in this world. Perhaps I should've addressed these issues first eh ?

Edited November 11, 2013 by chegg

[Apech]

Did you mean to post this in Hermetic & Occult ... it seems more like General Discussion? And I would like to move it there.

 

NB. There is no spirit-soul in Buddhism.

[Brian]

Pleeeease don't move it to "General Discussions" (says the General Discussions Steward...)

 

[Apech]

Pleeeease don't move it to "General Discussions" (says the General Discussions Steward...)

 

 

Coward.

 

[Brian]

I think it is an interesting topic albeit one tightly entwined with (often-unacknowledged) belief systems and difficult to discuss in public without emotion driving the conversation.

[silent thunder]

The Tao treats all as straw dogs.

Impartiality.

[Apech]

I think it is an interesting topic albeit one tightly entwined with (often-unacknowledged) belief systems and difficult to discuss in public without emotion driving the conversation.

 

 

Sure its a difficult topic.

 

For what its worth my thoughts are that as with any issue you cannot make a moral absolute out of it. However what you do have accept is that (or so I believe) the person starts at conception so abortion is killing a sentient being. But sentient beings are killed every moment of the day in order that life goes on ... so 'thou shalt not kill' is a ridiculous formulation. I prefer the idea of striving to do no harm which implies not killing needlessly.

 

In any case I don't suppose anyone considers abortion to be good or necessary. And I would be against a kind of negligent and careless attitude towards it ... but I don't think the pro-choice is this at all. I think that most pro-choice people would say avoid abortion if you possibly can. So the argument cannot be framed as anti or pro abortion. It can only be about who is to decide. The potential mother, society, religious authority ... who? And in the end I think that the choice must be with the potential mother. Since we are urged to be moral beings then we have to make moral choices. If there were a legal prohibition then the mother would have no such ability (save maybe going to a back street clinic). I am against anything which forces us to give up our moral responsibilities ... so I am pro-choice.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Pleeeease don't move it to "General Discussions" (says the General Discussions Steward...)

 

Hermetic it is not lol.

 

Perhaps the stewards can draw straws in the backroom? (pun intended).

[chegg]

Please move to appropriate forum if you like. I was more interested in the spiritual/occult aspects of abortion and what karmic consequences there may be. I'm not an expert in any religion/teaching so I just posted stuff I remembered, which could be wrong, as some of you have graciously pointed out.

 

Thankyou for your replies. I give you all 4 blessings on the karmic-scale-of-good-posts. :wub: :wub:

Edited November 11, 2013 by chegg

[BaguaKicksAss]

"Wrong" is subjective when it comes to religion and spirituality .

 

Though on a public forum you will get many dissenting views..

[h.uriahr]

Abortion is a major issue. Buckle down for controversial statement. Abortions are done for selfish reasons. ALL of them. The issue itself lies in the person and partner but more so on the person getting it done. If you engage in consensual sex and get pregnant then it's your responsibility to raise that child or at the least see to it that it has suitable parents. If you cant do that then dont have sex. If its a medical reason then it's still about you. Rape? Again, about you. No one thinks of adoption anymore. I was pro choice until I saw several abortion videos. Pro Choice in my opinion would be the option below.

 

I think I read somewhere that certain sects believe in soul entry at day 49. Maybe that's true. My Bible says that God knew us before we were in the womb. This to me is an indicator that abortion is wrong and will affect the individual. Ive known women that have had 3 and 4 abortions because they weren't "ready". In my world you get 2 free abortions. After that its permanent infertility. I also think divorce should be illegal.

[h.uriahr]

Irresponsible actions aren't good for you. I don't know about karma but they are scars that you have to deal with eventually.

[Aetherous]

Having been trained as an EMT, combat medic, and another type of healthcare professional...I tend to view "human life" as being a working heartbeat. Considering the unique and somewhat mysterious nature of what causes a heart to keep beating, I tend to equate that with being a "person" and having a unique consciousness.

Esoterically, I personally view "life" and "spirit" as being the same thing...and the seat of consciousness is in the living heart. In a sense we could say that individual consciousness is the "soul".

For the fetus, the heart begins to beat something like 18 days after conception...this is aside from the facts presented in this article, regarding other factors that make a fetus a unique living human being.

So for people to say that a fetus isn't a person, doesn't have a life or a spirit, doesn't have a soul, doesn't have consciousness...is absolutely false in my view. Because it has a heartbeat!

I agree with h.uriahr, that the justifications for abortion are generally selfish in nature. "A woman has a right to choose what happens to her body" is an argument often presented, and I agree...but she doesn't have a right to choose regarding the life or death of the living human being inside of her. That is not an appendage to be surgically removed, but is actually a separate consciousness...the heartbeats may sync up due to being so connected, but they are definitely separate hearts beating!

If we believe that souls choose human bodies, we could clearly say that deciding to have an abortion is infringing the free will decision of that soul, to live. Of course a fetus can't express its desire to live in the English language, which is what confuses the not-so-bright into thinking that it doesn't yet have a personality or will of its own to desire that...and therefore in their minds, makes it okay to do whatever they want to it.

[soaring crane]

For the fetus, the heart begins to beat something like 18 days after conception...this is aside from the facts presented in this article, regarding other factors that make a fetus a unique living human being.

 

I agree with this and I really don't like abortion for many reasons. But I am all for massive public funding for babies' and childrens' needs. And I like the idea of contraception and the day-after-pill (not so up to date on its effectiveness but what I've read about it sounds right to me).

 

Outta here.

 

Up next: Death Penalty (NO!)

[silent thunder]

I think George Carlin might have been a closet taoist.

 

Edited November 12, 2013 by silent thunder

[Apech]

Abortion is a major issue. Buckle down for controversial statement. Abortions are done for selfish reasons. ALL of them. The issue itself lies in the person and partner but more so on the person getting it done. If you engage in consensual sex and get pregnant then it's your responsibility to raise that child or at the least see to it that it has suitable parents. If you cant do that then dont have sex. If its a medical reason then it's still about you. Rape? Again, about you. No one thinks of adoption anymore. I was pro choice until I saw several abortion videos. Pro Choice in my opinion would be the option below. I think I read somewhere that certain sects believe in soul entry at day 49. Maybe that's true. My Bible says that God knew us before we were in the womb. This to me is an indicator that abortion is wrong and will affect the individual. Ive known women that have had 3 and 4 abortions because they weren't "ready". In my world you get 2 free abortions. After that its permanent infertility. I also think divorce should be illegal.

 

Not sure I follow your argument about rape there to be honest.

 

You might be right that decisions to abort are selfish. But so are decisions that you make everyday of your life - so I don't see why this is significant. The point for me is this ... we can all have our own beliefs and perspectives but at what point odes it become ok to impose those on others - to tell a woman for instance who has become pregnant through rape that if she wants to abort a) she is being selfish and b ) that she can't do it because she has to follow the social, religious and legal edicts of others.? Is that really better than having her decide for her own reasons and circumstances?

[chegg]

Not sure I follow your argument about rape there to be honest.

 

You might be right that decisions to abort are selfish. But so are decisions that you make everyday of your life - so I don't see why this is significant. The point for me is this ... we can all have our own beliefs and perspectives but at what point odes it become ok to impose those on others - to tell a woman for instance who has become pregnant through rape that if she wants to abort a) she is being selfish and b ) that she can't do it because she has to follow the social, religious and legal edicts of others.? Is that really better than having her decide for her own reasons and circumstances?

 

 

That is the 'free will' argument. If civil laws clamp down on people too much and it has the effect of taking away everyone's free-will to choose, then we will just end up with a planet of robot-like humans ?

 

I know, its an exaggeration on my part. But one will have to draw the line somewhere.

 

Abortion might be a special case because there could possibly be two wills involved. One is the mother's will to terminate the unborn and the other, the unborn babies will to stay alive.

 

If its the case of 2 wills then the quote below might be relevant:

 

 

"There are three universal laws and they go something like this.

 

1) Force, be it physical or deceptive and contrary to the will of any other, shall never be applied.

 

2) The only exception to this is such force is allowed, but only towards those breaking the first law, and only to stop them breaking the first law.

 

3) There are no exceptions to the first two universal laws.

 

The integrity of these is solid, self contained. Turn them in on themselves and they still stand."

Edited November 11, 2013 by chegg

[h.uriahr]

Not sure I follow your argument about rape there to be honest.

 

You might be right that decisions to abort are selfish. But so are decisions that you make everyday of your life - so I don't see why this is significant. The point for me is this ... we can all have our own beliefs and perspectives but at what point odes it become ok to impose those on others - to tell a woman for instance who has become pregnant through rape that if she wants to abort a) she is being selfish and b ) that she can't do it because she has to follow the social, religious and legal edicts of others.? Is that really better than having her decide for her own reasons and circumstances?

 

Why is everyone so quick o shove the vacuum hose deep up in there and rip and suck apart a living being? Is adoption unreasonable? Is the fact that she may become attached and choose to keep it bad?

[h.uriahr]

Here's another issue of mine. Does the father have any say so in the abortion? I mean really? No not all. A woman can go get one without his consent. Which is WRONG. Back to the topic though, killing cannot be justified. Turtles Shell awesome post! The heartbeat argument is good.

[chegg]

Why is everyone so quick o shove the vacuum hose deep up in there and rip and suck apart a living being? Is adoption unreasonable? Is the fact that she may become attached and choose to keep it bad?

 

 

What if the unborn foetus is going to be born with no arms, no legs, half a torso, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tounge, hardly any brain and has a tendancy to urinate and deffacate uncontrollably all over the floor.

 

Are you going to volunteer to look after it for the rest of your life ?

Edited November 12, 2013 by chegg

[h.uriahr]

http://www.jillstanek.com/2011/01/video-the-most-shocking-4-minute-abortion-debate-you-will-ever-see/

 

Pro Life all the way.

MOST ABORTIONS are done because the woman isn't 'ready'. Rapists should either be neutered or made sterile by some means and the child adopted.

[h.uriahr]

 

What if the unborn foetus is going to be born with no arms, no legs, half a torso, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tounge, hardly any brain and has a tendancy to urinate and deffacate uncontrollably all over the floor.

 

Are you going to volunteer to look after it for the rest of your life ?

 

Such a rare case to use as an argument. Can you supply statistics before I answer that? How many unborn fetuses are diagnosed as EXACTLY that?

 

Gracias

[h.uriahr]

I have to sign out and do some cleaning, studying and cultivating but I'll be back

 

NINJA OUT

[chegg]

Such a rare case to use as an argument. Can you supply statistics before I answer that? How many unborn fetuses are diagnosed as EXACTLY that? Gracias

 

It was a hypothetical question. I have no statisitcs on hand but there have been similar cases. You are under no obligation to answer it.

Edited November 12, 2013 by chegg

[h.uriahr]

 

What if the unborn foetus is going to be born with no arms, no legs, half a torso, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tounge, hardly any brain and has a tendancy to urinate and deffacate uncontrollably all over the floor.

 

Are you going to volunteer to look after it for the rest of your life ?

 

Am I going to vote for that baby to die before birth? My belief doesn't allow for that. Would that baby be a burden? Maybe. Maybe not. The thing that makes my relationship with Christ so Amazing is that he has turned tragedy into Triumph many times. I've dealt with some huge hemorrhoids before and they had a full brain, although I'm sure they only used half at best. A baby, given Love and True hands on Prayer can Blossom and Bring Forth Sweet Fruit