Questions for the scientists in our midst

[Marblehead]

Love you too although sometimes it might not look that way.

 

The Tao gave birth to One, One gave birth to Two, Two gave birth to Three, and Three gave birth to the Ten Thousand things.

 

First there was Singularity, Then there was a bang. From this bang was created hydrogen, hydrogen gave birth to helium. Hydrogen and Helium merged into stars and from the explosions of these stars all the Ten Thousand Things were created.

 

I am allowed to judge what is good or bad in my life. My thoughts are part of my life. I think Adolf was bad and that Mother Teresa was good.

 

If I think someone is a jerk and ten other people agree that this person is a jerk and no one has argued against the proposition that the person is a jerk I would say that it is a pretty good possibility that the person is a jerk.

 

At least we agree that we should not judge acts of nature.

 

No, I am not a straw dog. Sorry. I am now at a point in my life where I no longer have a need to offer myself to anyone and therefore no one can cast me aside.

 

Sometimes I don't even go with the flow because I want to go in a different direction. I was never a leaf in a river anyhow.

 

Granted, Tao and Nature don't give a hang about me. But I care. Therein is the difference.

[Stosh]

I am curious to see what your comparative effort might look like Manitou ,I gave up , its just so hard to find enough common ground .

 

[manitou]

Love you too although sometimes it might not look that way.

 

The Tao gave birth to One, One gave birth to Two, Two gave birth to Three, and Three gave birth to the Ten Thousand things.

 

First there was Singularity, Then there was a bang. From this bang was created hydrogen, hydrogen gave birth to helium. Hydrogen and Helium merged into stars and from the explosions of these stars all the Ten Thousand Things were created.

 

I am allowed to judge what is good or bad in my life. My thoughts are part of my life. I think Adolf was bad and that Mother Teresa was good.

 

If I think someone is a jerk and ten other people agree that this person is a jerk and no one has argued against the proposition that the person is a jerk I would say that it is a pretty good possibility that the person is a jerk.

 

At least we agree that we should not judge acts of nature.

 

No, I am not a straw dog. Sorry. I am now at a point in my life where I no longer have a need to offer myself to anyone and therefore no one can cast me aside.

 

Sometimes I don't even go with the flow because I want to go in a different direction. I was never a leaf in a river anyhow.

 

Granted, Tao and Nature don't give a hang about me. But I care. Therein is the difference.

 

Your statement about not being a straw dog makes me sad. When the Dao says it treats us like straw dogs, it is not referring to the hurt we experience when someone doesn't love us any more. It hurts me when you say this, I feel it in my heart. It is this very type of reward expectation we must cast aside (as you have), but go one step further and realize that this is faux love anyway. True love is to love each and every other person on the face of the earth, expecting nothing in return. Marbles, I have spent 30 years with a bipolar man, and a man that for the first 10 years of our life together would go out on a binge and live in skid row. I am not exaggerating. Skid row. . But because I chose to stick it out for some reason, I have had to change me, not him. The trick is to not label anyone as a jerk and to realize that he or she is merely playing their part in this whole earthly Play - as intended. And that they are actually doing the very best they can, given their past. There is a reason for every thing and dynamic - it is not willy nilly. The Sage doesn't waste any man - he or she is capable of Knowing that individual, because he knows himself to the core. If he knows himself to the core, he knows every other man or woman. Sound arrogant? It isn't - it's the truth - even when the Nazarene said 'Know Thyself', it is this very dynamic he was speaking of. It is how he was able to heal others, because he understood their inner dynamics, because he understood his own. This is the bottom line from which healing others is done, or healing ones' self for that matter.

 

Hitler had his part to play in this dramatic dynamic, as did Mother Teresa. I have heard it said that reversion is the action of the Dao. The Dao can be reverting to nothing other than the One (what else could it possibly be reverting to, unless you take it one further step back and revert to the Void), and it has already been done. Past, present, future are all now. We are merely physical representations of the dynamic in which this is being accomplished. and we all have our part to play, even Hitler.

 

When you speak of the singularity, the bang, hydrogen, helium et al - this is all based on a linear time frame, one after the other. Our minds are only set up to see the linear unless we take the time to meditate, to study the masters, to go within and find the One inside ourselves. It takes all three efforts; without these efforts everything will remain linear in appearance to us. To those who have done the inner delving, the meditating, and the learning of the masters and the potential for going even beyond any particular master - they will discover the other dynamic as well, the perpendicular or vertical to the horizontal. It cannot be described with words - this is that type of learning that is experiential, resulting in the inner Aha's!, the inner gulps of realization. It's not a head thing. It is a self-realization thing, a Gnowing that results from the experiential experience. And all that have had this experiential instruction get down to the same Gnowing, the hub of the wheel - within this lifetime experience at least. And it occurs to me that prior to the singularity was the Void, the latent potentiality, the ideas before they were even formed. This Void remains with us today in the form of Love of the All. When we find this common thread of 'Love of the All' our ride is effortless, worry and anxiety is gone, things are done by not doing at all.

 

To cut ones' self off from the beauty of love is to do ones' self a disservice. This is the Dao in action, the reward for all the effort. It no longer depends on how someone perceives us, whether they are responding to us as we would wish. This is supplanted with a far greater love that doesn't need a particular object (or specific person) to focus on. If it does happen to have a specific person to share this with, fine. If it doesn't, fine. Again, it's the only way I've been able to stick with Joe for 30 years- by accepting him in his ups and his downs. To 'love' him is not to pave the way for him, or to bolster his pillow (or his ego), to make sure he's always comfortable, or to walk on eggs around his anger. Sometimes the most loving thing I can do is go to a movie by myself and just get out of his negative way for the day - to recharge my own batteries. To stop judging his actions and let him be what he will be. Until I learned to do this, it was a life of unrealistic expectation and supreme disappointment in regular intervals. Throw alcoholism in there and his tendency to go to skid row after he took the first drink (although thankfully he hasn't done so in 20 years now), it's not been an easy ride. Perhaps my own weakness and fear of loneliness was the only thing that kept me there. Sometimes I suspect that it was. Or, it could also be that when I make a promise I like to keep it. Either way.

 

I actually find that it's comforting to know we're straw dogs. We're merely an extension of the sun, a ray. It doesn't matter whether the ray is in a state of emanation (life on earth) or whether we're in the Collective (the sun, the mode of death). This is why fear of death is silly.

 

Remember - If men didn't laugh at the Dao, it wouldn't be the Dao.

 

Stosh, I need a little more context to respond to your last statement...

Edited November 18, 2013 by manitou

[Marblehead]

HI Manitou,

 

You did a fine job at defining your life, your experiences, and your beliefs.

 

The fact that mine are almost directly opposed to yours should be an indicator that we are not all one.

 

I regret that my not being a straw dog saddened you. Call me an Atheist and I will not contend. Or an Anarchist, Materialist, Taoist, Nietzschian, or many of the other "label" we tend to place upon ourself and I wouldn't contend. But I will dispute being called something I am not, even if was with good intentions.

 

Although we disagree often I have never tried to change your beliefs. But then, I will disagree with you when I have an understanding that is different from yours.

 

Again I will say that we each are special and unique. Hitler was specially evil. Mother Teresa was specially giving to others.

 

You are specially (no labels) and I am specially (no labels).

 

Anyhow, you have found a belief that works for you. That's good. I have found a path that works for me. That's good too. On occasion our paths intertwine and we walk together for a while. That's good too.

[Stosh]

Stosh, I need a little more context to respond to your last statement...

I thought you were going to triangulate , as in find ones bearings amongst the myriad of opinions that are presented here ,,which may or may not be in accord with the DDJ..

 

Im bringing up, that the ink on paper says nothing without someone to interpret the strokes., so investigating whether the DDJ sheds light on the discussion , returns back to discussing the individual takes that folks have. The membership here is so eclectic that I see little common ground for most of folks reasoning except that the lines sometimes refer back to Lz and Cz....

 

a scholar described the DDJ as a sort of rorschach blot... sometimes two people see a butterfly and sometimes they see fried eggs. For instance , Mh feels that the DDJ tells people how to live well ,,, which could be true ,, My view however is that it does supply suggestion to do just that,, but its not telling you what exactly to do in any instance. Does it tell me to quit my job and retreat to the himalayas?

Even the straw dog comment can be taken in two complimentary opposite stances , the one , where you dont internalize the chaos of others ,and two , where you treat people as the spiritual things they are rather than just meat on bones.. theres surely more interps, but any other way it may also be, the direction given is dubious.

The rorschach blot though empty of particular form ,none-the-less is a substrate upon which meaning can be placed and therefore represents potential. and they would feel it was useful being empty as such.

 

Like I said , Im curious to see if you can surmount this obstacle I gave up on.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Mh feels that the DDJ tells people how to live well ,,, which could be true ,,

If this discussion materializes I will speak to this as I think you may have attained a misunderstanding of what I was trying to present.

[Stosh]

If this discussion materializes I will speak to this as I think you may have attained a misunderstanding of what I was trying to present.

Sorry , I think Manitou has the tolerance to let you clarify whats already on paper here. Please do.

[Marblehead]

Not here, not now. I will allow you to live in confusion a while longer. Hehehe.

[Stosh]

Not here, not now. I will allow you to live in confusion a while longer. Hehehe.

The suspense is killing me!

[Marblehead]

The suspense is killing me!

Hehehe. A good time to develop your patience.

[manitou]

Marbles, the only reason I referred to straw dog is that it refers to the straw dog concept in the DDJ - which is a tome you seem to know and love. In fact, you conduct book studies. Does straw dog mean something else to you other than a ceremonial proxy that was used for ceremonial purposes? It would seem to imply a certain disinterest on the part of the dynamic of the Dao, that's all I'm trying to say. That we're all part of a big cosmic washing machine and it doesn't really matter where and when the straw dog comes into play. We just all have a part to play, that's all. The Dao knows what it's doing - I see the dynamic as still living. Do you see it as dead and withdrawn?

 

By the way, I consider myself an Atheist as well, in the sense that there is nothing Out There floating around in the sky and directing traffic here on earth. We are It, communally and without time constraints. All happening Now. It emanates through us. But Order, not chaos, will prevail and the tendency is always going upwards, toward the light. Despite appearances to the opposite. How many times in your life have you had something happen to you that you considered Bad? but down the road you realized it was the best thing that ever happened to you? This dynamic happens all the time to us, and it is merely our change in focus and understanding that brings us to see it as Good, if one is insistent on persisting with the labels.

 

Or, as I like to say, It's All Good. Our attitudes are merely our choice. They are not the world's reality, just ours. If we want to change our world, we have to change our attitudes and conclusions.

Edited November 19, 2013 by manitou

[manitou]

I thought you were going to triangulate , as in find ones bearings amongst the myriad of opinions that are presented here ,,which may or may not be in accord with the DDJ..

 

Im bringing up, that the ink on paper says nothing without someone to interpret the strokes., so investigating whether the DDJ sheds light on the discussion , returns back to discussing the individual takes that folks have. The membership here is so eclectic that I see little common ground for most of folks reasoning except that the lines sometimes refer back to Lz and Cz....

 

a scholar described the DDJ as a sort of rorschach blot... sometimes two people see a butterfly and sometimes they see fried eggs. For instance , Mh feels that the DDJ tells people how to live well ,,, which could be true ,, My view however is that it does supply suggestion to do just that,, but its not telling you what exactly to do in any instance. Does it tell me to quit my job and retreat to the himalayas?

Even the straw dog comment can be taken in two complimentary opposite stances , the one , where you dont internalize the chaos of others ,and two , where you treat people as the spiritual things they are rather than just meat on bones.. theres surely more interps, but any other way it may also be, the direction given is dubious.

The rorschach blot though empty of particular form ,none-the-less is a substrate upon which meaning can be placed and therefore represents potential. and they would feel it was useful being empty as such.

 

Like I said , Im curious to see if you can surmount this obstacle I gave up on.

 

 

We're on a Dao website, and so I agree that the only thing we will agree on is that which is contained within the Daoist structure ( more accurately, non-structure). Yes, it is a Rorschach test, even amongst interpreters. The particular interpretation is only as successful as the spiritual advancement of the interpreter, IMO. So in that sense, I cannot explain to you something that has taken me years to understand - both with my outer reading and my inner digging. This is the part where it must be done by self-realization, by each and every one of us alone. To continue to place labels on ourselves is not the answer at all - by the label's nature, it is self-limiting and it tends to dig our heels in when confronted by other opinions, as opposed to perhaps being open minded and integrating the wisdom of others.

 

Actually, I can talk about this stuff forever; it's never really answered. My understanding continues to evolve, day by day, reading by reading, inner awareness by inner awareness. Our life is our chalkboard. I have recently joined the NAACP and the wealth of different experience (and opportunities for compassion and further understanding) are almost overwhelming. But it is a section of my nature that I felt needed to grow; to understand further the experience of an entire section of the population that I had not taken the time to get to know and love previously.

 

What is the purpose of the DDJ? My view, in addition to yours and Marbles' views, is that it also gives us a template to develop the qualities of the sage. To walk our talk. The 3 treasures the sage has (which were born into him originally, but covered up for a time and then remanifested through the inner work and outer knowledge he attained) were, in my internalization of my favorite interpretation, the following: Love, Never be the First, Never too Much. He has attained loving his brother as himself, the love of the All. He has overcome his ego by never being the First, by ridding himself of the thrust of his ego to prove to himself that he's the best; he knows Who He Is (the Dao) and he needn't play ego games any longer, he can sidestep it. And third, he knows Balance, which manifests in Never Too Much. He takes just what he needs, he doesn't obsess over compiling money, which I like to call Stuck Energy - and he flows with the universe and with the conditions that present themselves. He will always take the high road, think the high thought, live in optimism and love of others, being assured that if patient all things will work to the proper end It intends. He knows how to Do without Doing, because he realizes that all things will of their own accord find the alignment that is inherent in the beauty and order of the Dao, if we keep our hands off. But this can't be done without Eyes. The Eyes must be developed.

 

To quit one's job and retreat to the Himalayas is not the point at all, IMO. Maybe something like that is necessary to overcome the illusive involvement we have in life's dynamics, the pressures, the anxieties - but for most Seekers this will only be a temporary tool to be used to quiet the mind, like a forced meditation. To return to the earthly matters and be capable of transcending them and Seeing with long eyes what the dynamics really are is the trick, IMO. To figure out a way to love those who are unlovable. The Dao within me has had me do some strange things in the name of love. One day I walked in on a man, a heroin addict, burglarizing my house. As I was demanding him to empty his pockets and put all my jewelry down on the bed in the room I found him in, he produced a frozen burrito taken from my freezer. My heart melted; I asked him if he was hungry and if I could cook it for him. He said Yes, but would I join him? I pulled out another frozen burrito and we had lunch together. I told him I wouldn't call the police if he listened to what I had to say. I did what they would call in AA or NA a 12th step call on him - telling him he didn't need to live like this any more, etc - no more need to hurt people and I offered to take him to his first NA meeting. Of course, after he left my knees buckled and I hit the floor, but the Power was with me throughout the whole occurrence. We are the Dao. We have a strength within us that is incredible, if we are open to it, and if we follow what our heart is telling us to do at the moment.

 

I don't think there's a way to put into words surmounting the obstacle of the illusion that we are separate. Every master finds himself at the One because he has taken the time to uncover the love, the One-ness within; one defect at a time; there must be many techniques for this. This results in Gnowledge, an assuredness that one is on firm ground, but which can't possibly be put into words. Not another pile of left brained knowledge, but a Aha! of inner awareness. This is the commonality of the Sage, the Yogi, the Bodhisattva, the mystic Christian master, the Rinpoche. The Gnowing. No words, merely a pointed finger at the moon. This is the only comparative explanation I can give, and by it's own internal workings it can only go so far. It must be uncovered, self-realized for the rest of the journey. Nobody can do it for us.

Edited November 19, 2013 by manitou

[Marblehead]

Yes, I had already considered you to be an Atheist by definition. But that's a 'beside the point' here.

 

Straw dogs is the concept of interest for the moment.

 

True that the TTC states that Tao treats the Ten thousand things as straw dogs as does the Sage.

 

However, and this is very important to me, we should not treat each other as straw doigs; we should not treat our planet as a straw dog. We should care about each other and we should care about the planet.

 

It is not right, in my opinion, to treat anyone as a straw dog, to be used for our own egotistical and selfish purpose and then throw that person away. No, that is not my understanding of Taoism.

 

I am not saying that you think this way. On the contrary. How could you even have such a thought what with all the talking you do about unconditional love?

 

But in "real life" there are those who would treat others as straw dogs. And this is what I argue against. And I also argue against suggesting that to set one who intentionally does evil, yes, according to my judgement, as equal to one who does good. I cannot accept this at all.

 

It is true that we all, all the Ten Thousand Things, are of the same source. But what we become is controlled either by nature or, in the case of the human animal, what type of person we want to be. We can be of help to others or we can do harm to others. Our choice. But I promise, those who wish to do harm to me will be considered evil, by me, and will be removed from my life, one way or another.

 

In the Zoroasterian religion, in the original, God created all things and beings and humans were given free will and the freedom of choice. But, with this freedom was an attachment: we must take full responsibility for our thoughts and actions. After Zarathustra died his followers remained but they couldn't handle the responsibility so they created a Devil to blame their evil thoughts and actions on. Zoroasterianism is still followed today. And their is one set of followers who still follow the initial tenent of taking responsibility for their thoughts and actions. But their numbers are few.

 

What I am protesting against is the dismissing of the intentional evil acts of man against his/her fellow man and writing it off as, "Oh well, that's just the way of Tao." That isn't the way of Tao not should it be the way of man. In nature, excluding the human animal, there is a perfect reason why things happen and it was the only way any given event could have happened. A grown man raping and killing an eleven years old girl is not the Way of Tao. It is not the way of man. It should never be excused. That young girl was not someone's straw dog to be used and then thrown away. She was special and unique and had every right to a happy life as does anyone else. Being raped and murdered is not a happy life.

 

So you see, this is what I protest against. This types of action are, in my opinion, unforgivable.

[Stosh]

^{True that the TTC states that Tao treats the Ten thousand things as straw dogs as does the Sage.}

 

^{However, and this is very important to me, we should not treat each other as straw doigs; we should not treat our planet as a straw dog. We should care about each other and we should care about the planet.}

 

^{It is not right, in my opinion, to treat anyone as a straw dog, to be used for our own egotistical and selfish purpose and then throw that person away. No, that is not my understanding of Taoism.}

^{So how is it that you reconcile these things?}

[manitou]

Look at it from the perspective of the Dao, from the inside. I don't think we need to define the straw dog as evil or bad in any way. It just is. Love just is, it is the dynamic, and wu-wei will always engage love if left to its own devices. The straw dog metaphor is that birth or death is not good or bad. The timing of birth or death is not good or bad. To see it with a judgment placed upon it is to continue to see in duality.

 

This won't be resolved unless we all come to the conclusion that time is not actually linear. As long as we see the big bang as something that actually happened eons ago, we will considered that the Dao was something of the past and that it has no pertinence now. But is not the universe continuing to expand from our limited point of view? it's still happening, it's still engaged in expansion.

 

Marbles, I know that you know that when I refer to straw dogs, I am not seeing anything evil or bad. I see through the eyes of love, everything. Even the burglar. Putting a label on the concept of straw dogs, I think, is not helpful. No good, no bad. Just Is-ness. We're like specks of dust in a storm; does it matter when our life starts or stops, as seen from the Dao? (As seen from the individual, of course it does! But as seen by the Dao, the eyes of Oneness? Not at all. That's all I was saying).

 

Metaphysical stuff. The idea beneath the matter.

Edited November 19, 2013 by manitou

[Marblehead]

^{So how is it that you reconcile these things?}

I don't need to reconcile it because I consider it an error in initial expression which led to a misinterpretation in the translation.

 

No where in the TTC does it suggest that we should consider each other straw dogs. No where. In fact, it states quite the opposite. The sage cares even for the bad person. Tao (Te) nurtures even the bad person as does the sage. I can't go that far.

 

Tao (Te) does what needs be done as does the sage. We should as well. (But no intentional harm to others. Tao does not function with intent and I will suggest that neither does the sage. But we humans do.)

[Marblehead]

Hi Manitou,

 

I will give you a break for a little while. I think we both have well expressed our understanding. We are not really that far apart in our understanding.

[Stosh]

Heaven and earth
have no mercy,
treating the 10,000 things
as straw dogs;
the Sage has no mercy,
treating people as straw dogs. [1]

*Translation by LU Wenlong & Keith Wayne Brown, ©2013.

 

OK, then you feel that these folks have translated badly.. alright

 

The issue of whether the 'sage' or Tao ,,cares about anything, is the essence of this straw dog thing , is it not?

Ive seen quite a lot about the state of "Equanimity" a state of psychological stability and composure which is undisturbed by experience of or exposure to emotions, pain, or other phenomena that ...

 

But I havent noticed anything that suggests getting wrapped up in emotional issues or applying judgements is the sagely thing or the way of Dao , is there an interp which points me there which I have missed?

Since my standing opinion on the sage is that it is a literary device , a sort of extreme object lesson and That Tao doesnt operate with motivations nor has any needs.

[Marblehead]

Tao lacks the ability to care therefore to say that Tao doesn't care is void of meaning.

 

Heaven and Earth also lack this ability.

 

In all the other chapters of the TTC where the sage is mentioned we see a caring sage.

 

I wouldn't consider a person to be a complete person if they lacked emotions.

 

True, Tao, Heaven and Earth are without judgements. I don't argue that. But to say that the sage is without judgements, I think, would be an error.

The sage is a person of integrity. I think that caring is included in "integrity".

 

I agree with you that Tao operates without motivation. It is simply following its own nature, Tzujan.

[Stosh]

Tao lacks the ability to care therefore to say that Tao doesn't care is void of meaning.

Heaven and Earth also lack this ability.

I agree that none of those have meaning , other than to us,, what, or who would they have meaning TO? if not us sentients.

 

A person might or might not be complete without emotions, personally I think its just the human condition to ,yes , have them.

But Im not seeing where the Sage is reported to entertain emotions or is making biased judgements .

 

I agree with you that Tao operates without motivation. It is simply following its own nature, Tzujan.

 

So youre saying it cares ,and has meaning,but doesnt make biased judgements, other than to follow its innate native character? Shining on both the wicked and the just ,, in a way you dont think people will or even can .

Is that right?

Edited November 19, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Tao lacks the ability to care therefore to say that Tao doesn't care is void of meaning.

Heaven and Earth also lack this ability.

I agree that none of those have meaning , other than to us,, what, or who would they have meaning TO? if not us sentients.

They shouldn't even have meaning to us. Even for the religious, who of them will challenge the will of their God?

 

A person might or might not be complete without emotions, personally I think its just the human condition to ,yes , have them.

But Im not seeing where the Sage is reported to entertain emotions or is making biased judgements .

Chapter 3, Henricks' translation:

 

Therefore, in the government of the Sage:

He empties their minds,

And fills their bellies.

Weakens their ambition,

And strengthens their bones.

 

Need more?

 

I agree with you that Tao operates without motivation. It is simply following its own nature, Tzujan.

 

So youre saying it cares ,and has meaning,but doesnt make biased judgements, other than to follow its innate native character? Shining on both the wicked and the just ,, in a way you dont think people will or even can .

Is that right?

Yes, there is meaning (Don't be asking me for the meaning of life. Hehehe) but no caring, no judgements. Judgements and caring require emotions. We will not personify Tao.

 

Yes, shining on the comet that wiped out 70% of life on Earth 65 million years ago.

 

And yes, with regret, I must suggest that Tao (Te) nurtured Hitler just as it did Mother Teresa.

 

And you are correct, people have emotions, they care, they live in a dualistic reality; there is good and evil and we have our preferences of one over the other.

[Stosh]

Therefore, in the government of the Sage:

He empties their minds,

And fills their bellies.

Weakens their ambition,

And strengthens their bones.

 

I dont see this as a slam dunk for the mercies of Sages

and feel the following ,is a construal, that the above passage

doesn't negate by itself ,

 

To do his function ,

he would keep them ignorant

but satisfy them physically

crush their dreams

and inure them to suffering

 

"Men are so simple and so much inclined to obey immediate needs that a deceiver will never lack victims for his deceptions"

."Politics have no relation to morals".


Machiavelli

And you are correct, people have emotions, they care, they live in a dualistic reality; there is good and evil and we have our preferences of one over the other.

 

Warmly yes ,we do agree on this. Shall we proceed anyway ,or break off here?

[Marblehead]

Warmly yes ,we do agree on this. Shall we proceed anyway ,or break off here?

Not yet. Hehehe.

 

I dont see this as a slam dunk for the mercies of Sages

and feel the following ,is a construal, that the above passage

doesn't negate by itself ,

No, I wasn't suggesting merciful actions. But in order to undertake such actions based on a judgement I suggest that there is caring involved. Caring requires emotions.

 

Machiavelli

I will leave him alone.

[manitou]

Hi Manitou,

 

I will give you a break for a little while. I think we both have well expressed our understanding. We are not really that far apart in our understanding.

Apparently I've been dismissed?

 

Until one goes within, the third eye will never be developed. It will always be two-dimensional.

 

A very wise one once said to Wear the World as a Loose Garment. It relates to the straw dog metaphor.

[Marblehead]

Apparently I've been dismissed?

Hehehe. No, nothing like that. We have an area of strong disagreement here and you can't change your perspective and I can't change mine. I don't want you to get the idea that I am trying to force my opinion on you.

 

Until one goes within, the third eye will never be developed. It will always be two-dimensional.

You speak with strange words. Within where? I have but two eyes as is how it should be. I already have 3D vision. The fourth dimension is time/space and since time is linear I cannot fall back nor can I spring forward.

 

A very wise one once said to Wear the World as a Loose Garment. It relates to the straw dog metaphor.

A nice play with words. Just as is the sage treating the people as straw dogs. But impractical in the real world.

 

We have our five senses and a brain for the purpose of living a good life in the real world while we have the pleasure of life. To think of a life after life is incomprehensible for me.

 

Sure, we all are going to die one day. But that doesn't mean we should consider this life a straw dog. It is as real as any other part of the totality.

 

Now get out there and dance!