Zhan Zhuang: santi vs hunyuan

[baiqi]

In a recent video from Bruce Frantzis about Xingyi, he said that he thought that santi shi

(Sun Lutang's santi shi)

 

was the best qigong holding posture (or zhan zhuang). He said he prefers it to hunyuan

(Someone doing hunyuan posture)

 

and other postures of Yiquan/ Dacheng quan

 

I feel this a little strange.

 

I also do both standing postures, and, to me, the second one had more benefits in general.

Santi shi is very good too, the problem is that it becomes "martial" very quickly. It is excellent for fighting purposes, but I find it harder to bring peace of mind with it...

 

Anyway, I'd like other people's thoughts on this.

 

[thelerner]

I've also heard the Santi Shi is more a warrior pose also. In Ki-Aikido there was a practice holding a bokken at mid guard for 30 minutes while keeping the tip unmoved and focused at a single point. Very hard.

 

I like the 'holding the beach balls down' (forget the name, sure its Lam's book) style hunyuan-esque pose. Course I usually do zhan zhuang listening to Rawn Clarks Archaeous audios and that works well with the gist of stacking elements.

[i am]

In my limited experience/knowledge, I'd agree. That's a martial pose. Seeing his comments out of context, it's hard to say if he addressed that...

 

He certainly knows a hell of a lot more than me.

[林愛偉]

Because in Santi Shi, if one applies the intent to, or any thought, to advance forward; meaning preparedness to leap like a tiger, pressing and pulling both feet, the cultivation leads for health and martial power, and emphasizes on martial power quickly.

 

If one sinks in Santi shi, with awareness at the feet, joints, hip joints, spine and shoulder joints, something else happens. As well, the idea of a body being in Santi shi should be eradicated as well; meaning no muscles, no tendons, ligaments. Let all that seep into the bones. Then, the intent practice goes further where one applies more steps to eventually feel the gravity of earth literally grabbing them. Dropping false thinking, sensations and even the method of practice, just standing in the posture, the gravity state gets stronger and the bones get denser, muscles as well, then one gets used to the heaviness. Along with that, blood and qi are benefited, becoming full, they tonify the internal organs, which in turn causes them to revitalize.

 

Hunyuan is good too, and because mostly the views of it are not martial, the mind doesn't have any preconceived notions of its martial effectiveness, thus its cultivation is less geared towards martial. Yet, the Hun Yuan posture helps to develop peng jing, strengthening the intent, will and application of the joints in simultaneous movement. :-) However, many don't apply Hunyuan with that practice and the methods for it that way.

[Aetherous]

The wrist position makes that much of a difference...extended means yang, which is expanding outward energetically.

[dawei]

It really depends on your purpose... what do you want from any stance?

 

I view stances from the highest and most basic principle that pressure differential will be created; Qi moves from high pressure to low pressure. So, what do I want out of the stance in terms of physical or energetic results?

 

The Santi Shi, which I have never done but I have done dynamic movements with arms at different heights, appears to me that the pressure differential, Qi path, will be enhanced by having one arm higher than another; meaning, there is a path prescribed by the positions alone.

 

In Hunyuan, the pressure path is what? High to low... and once the arms drop, it is down the arms as well... you will feel it.

 

So, why prefer any standing posture? Depends on what you want out of it.

 

The Hunyuan is but one of a dozen in the series of Yi Quan... done in sequence, the differential path is created to build up sensitivity training... which one to do? Depends on what you want out of it... Do the entire series in sequence is different than doing one or two or three of them.

 

Why not do the simplest, Wuji stance... arms down by the side? Depends on what you want out of it.

 

I can upload the entire Yi Quan sequence if you want...

[ChiDragon]

I've also heard the Sati Shi ins more a warrior pose also.

 

Sati Shi(三體勢) is an on guard position for most martial artists except Tai Ji practitioners. Tai Ji(太極) practitioners use the Wu Ji(無極) position.

[dawei]

Sati Shi(三體勢) is an on guard position for most martial artists except Tai Ji practitioners. Tai Ji(太極) practitioners use the Wu Ji(無極) position.

 

It just depends on what one wants from it.

 

Wuji is creating the calm before the storm. Santi Shi is preparing the storm...

 

Yi Quan is to ride the storm...

[dwai]

Here are my teacher's notes about a taiji stance that is similar to santi shi aka Raised hands stance --

 

http://www.gbolarts.com/pages/notes_archive/notes-034.html

 

This is a very powerful meditation and will test how shung you are very quickly. At the energetic level, it feels like a expansion/contraction of the off weighted side (opening and closing of one side). Also a strong dan tian cultivation.

[ChiDragon]

Wu Ji is the yin on guard position while Santi Shi is the yang on guard position. However, yin is triumphant over yang.

Yin is standing at still position reserving energy while the yang on guard position is dissipating some amount of energy before any action.

Edited November 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

Wu Ji is the yin on guard position while Santi Shi is the yang on guard position. However, yin is triumphant over yang.

 

Yin is standing at still position reserving energy while the yang on guard position is dissipating some amount of energy before any action.

In any still stance, if energy is not moving, it is pointless. So even when you are at a stand-still, the energy is constantly moving, expanding/contracting, rising/sinking, cycling.

 

Only in wuji stance will you not be actively moving energy, because wuji is where mind is still/empty, energy is in balance (yin and yang are balanced).

[dawei]

Here are my teacher's notes about a taiji stance that is similar to santi shi aka Raised hands stance --

 

http://www.gbolarts.com/pages/notes_archive/notes-034.html

 

This is a very powerful meditation and will test how shung you are very quickly. At the energetic level, it feels like a expansion/contraction of the off weighted side (opening and closing of one side). Also a strong dan tian cultivation.

 

Nice description. Starts with movement but in the stance, it wants the Qi to 'cause the posture', which is correct.

 

This is 'carrying the ball' in Yi Quan.

 

Palms upwards (bring in heavenly Qi) seems not as common in Taiji where palms are often downward (for earthly Qi)... but I never understood why to make such strong distinctions, so I am glad to see an example which breaks that barrier for the sake of all that is available in Qi...

 

All such stances are part of a series but some take individual stances and focus on them.

 

There is no one winner; no triumphant one over another. You will get out of each one (or the series) what it offers towards what you want out of it. IN the end, you can success in what you want... but realize there is always much, much more offered.

[ChiDragon]

Yin and Yang are balance only when both are active in one body. If Yin is in one body with respect to yang in another body, they are out of balance at that instance in time.

[dwai]

Yin and Yang are balance only when both are active in one body. If Yin is in one body with respect to yang in another body, they are out of balance at that instance in time.

Not sure what you mean by that. There is no Yin without Yang and no Yang without Yin. Remember the Taijitu?

Even in a scenario involving two individuals, there is still an individual yin and yang as well as a collective yin and yang.

[dawei]

dwai beat me to the post... I don't follow either.

 

What is an example of "Yin is in one body with respect to yang in another body"

[ChiDragon]

"Yin is in one body with respect to yang in another body"

 

 

A tai Ji practitioner stand at Wu Ji position which is considered to be the Yin in one body. The opponent stands at the Santi Shi position which is the Yang position in another body(the opponent).

Edited November 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[lifeforce]

 

A tai Ji practitioner stand at Wu Ji position which is considered to be the Yin in one body. The opponent stands at the Santi Shi position which is the Yang position in another body(the opponent).

 

??????

This forum is full of keyboard warriors and armchair philosophers who make ridiculous statements. I'm taking a break for a while.

It's lost its appeal lately and a lot of members who used to make meaningful posts and debates, no longer post or visit here.

[ChiDragon]

No 定力.......???

It seems to me one is just lack of 定力.

Edited November 15, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Aetherous]

?????? This forum is full of keyboard warriors and armchair philosophers who make ridiculous statements. I'm taking a break for a while. It's lost its appeal lately and a lot of members who used to make meaningful posts and debates, no longer post or visit here.

 

I can't believe people actually liked this post.

[ChiDragon]

?????? ........................... I'm taking a break for a while. It's lost its appeal lately and a lot of members who used to make meaningful posts and debates, no longer post or visit here.

It seems someone may be just lack of 定力.

[Green Tiger]

In a recent video from Bruce Frantzis about Xingyi, he said that he thought that santi shi

(Sun Lutang's santi shi)

 

was the best qigong holding posture (or zhan zhuang). He said he prefers it to hunyuan

(Someone doing hunyuan posture)

 

and other postures of Yiquan/ Dacheng quan

 

I feel this a little strange.

 

I also do both standing postures, and, to me, the second one had more benefits in general.

Santi shi is very good too, the problem is that it becomes "martial" very quickly. It is excellent for fighting purposes, but I find it harder to bring peace of mind with it...

 

Anyway, I'd like other people's thoughts on this.

 

For what it's worth, I've heard wu chi (hunyuan) also called "health stance" and santi shi called "combat stance." I don't think you could really say one is better than the other. Each can be practiced with different intent also. I've heard instructors teach wu chi stance that could be construed as more martial, emphasizing a sense of alertness in the stance and a feeling of being like a cat ready to pounce.

 

I usually recommend beginners practice wu chi for a few minutes before and after each tai chi session, then, after they've been practicing for a while and built up their standing time to 20 minutes or so, add the santi shi. I guess I feel that wu chi is more foundational, but I wouldn't say it is less powerful or inferior in any way.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Green Tiger

[Protector]

The best holding posture is horse stance from my clan but talking about it would be bragging

 

 

whoops...

[PLB]

I don't know from better or worse. I do a lot of both positions and find the differences between them mirror each other.

 

I like the graphic of the hunyuan with the dots shown at the bubbling points at the feet, the dantien, and the baihui. It is hard to beat this alignment if the goal is to connect the feet and crown and have them open and close together. The hands are turned toward and relate to the shoulders and close a kind of circuit of the harmonies. When I sink with my weight slightly forward, my feet are connected with my elbows. When I push from that place, I feel the other person's feet.

 

The santi shi involves a weight differential and a pronounced difference between receiving and projecting as one opens and closes. The feedback is different because it involves the changes of actually moving while standing still. The line between moving and standing becomes smaller and stepping is easier to experience.

 

What Green Tiger says about one being more martial than the other makes sense as a general rubric. But there are cats out there that make the hunyuan primary and they are no joke to push or punch with.

Edited November 16, 2013 by PLB

[baiqi]

Actually, the Hunyuan can also be done sideways, which gives it a more martial flavor

 

...especially if you close your fists as in the picture above. But in the Yiquan curriculum, you do this only after a while (and IF you are interested in fighting with yiquan), whereas in xingyi, you start doing santi, which is sideways.

 

 

Another question: Wang Xiangzhai was a Xingyi guy before he created Yiquan, why did he choose to give up the classical santi shi, to replace it with the "holding the ball" posture(s)? Does anyone know about it? Okay, he considered zhan zhuang to be the most important part of his gongfu, but there was already santi shi as a zhuan zhang, so why change?

 

Anyway, thanks for the answers you already made, some were quite helping.

[doc benway]

In a recent video from Bruce Frantzis about Xingyi, he said that he thought that santi shi

(Sun Lutang's santi shi)

 

was the best qigong holding posture (or zhan zhuang). He said he prefers it to hunyuan

(Someone doing hunyuan posture)

 

and other postures of Yiquan/ Dacheng quan

 

I feel this a little strange.

 

I also do both standing postures, and, to me, the second one had more benefits in general.

Santi shi is very good too, the problem is that it becomes "martial" very quickly. It is excellent for fighting purposes, but I find it harder to bring peace of mind with it...

 

Anyway, I'd like other people's thoughts on this.

 

I don't believe in the concept of 'best.'

Different postures offer a variety of benefits.

No question that San Ti Shi gives great martial benefits and Bruce is a martial artist so his preference makes sense.

I think there is much to be learned from basic Zhan Zhuang posture with the hands at the sides.

If you practice for long enough, the body begins to relax, unwind, and move through a variety of stages including different physical postures, movements, yawning, and so forth.

Very few people practice for long enough or consistently enough to derive maximum benefit from the practices so for most, the idea of a 'best' practice doesn't matter much anyway.