Zhan Zhuang: santi vs hunyuan

[doc benway]

?????? This forum is full of keyboard warriors and armchair philosophers who make ridiculous statements. I'm taking a break for a while. It's lost its appeal lately and a lot of members who used to make meaningful posts and debates, no longer post or visit here.

What are you going to do for entertainment?

[Isimsiz Biri]

In a recent video from Bruce Frantzis about Xingyi, he said that he thought that santi shi

(Sun Lutang's santi shi)

 

 

My very close friend practiced a similar stance for long periods. A Chinese master had taught this practice to him. In the stance, his right hand was extended. As a result, he developed a severe pain on his upper right back. He is still suffering from it. Do not hold such an asymmetric stance for long periods of time.

[doc benway]

My very close friend practiced a similar stance for long periods. A Chinese master had taught this practice to him. In the stance, his right hand was extended. As a result, he developed a severe pain on his upper right back. He is still suffering from it. Do not hold such an asymmetric stance for long periods of time.

 

Didn't your friend also practice the left side?

[Isimsiz Biri]

Didn't your friend also practice the left side?

 

 

No he did not. Because he was taught like that. But it does not matter at all. Let us assume that my friend held the asymmetric stance with right arm extended for 30 min. and then the same asymmetric stance with left arm extended 30 mins daily. The same problem would occur on his right side and may be also the left side.

[doc benway]

No he did not. Because he was taught like that. But it does not matter at all. Let us assume that my friend held the asymmetric stance with right arm extended for 30 min. and then the same asymmetric stance with left arm extended 30 mins daily. The same problem would occur on his right side and may be also the left side.

 

San Ti Shi is a great practice.

Yes, there is pain involved and it is not right for everyone.

On the other hand, all serious Xing Yi Quan practitioners learn to master it - it is a very legitimate and credible method.

 

It took me about 6 months to build up to standing 30 minutes per side per day.

I went through a lot of ups and downs and it never became 'easy' but most people can work through the problems - with proper guidance. I still practice it but much less as my practice has evolved from martial to more health/well being related.

 

It matters quite a bit whether both sides are being practiced as the body needs that balance and if half the time were spent practicing the left side, the problem may not have occured for your friend.

Most of the time, people who develop problems with San Ti Shi do so because they try to stand too long, too soon; or because they have incorrect posture or some underlying issues that interfere. I would also say that standing on one side only is more likely to cause problems than practicing both sides.

[Isimsiz Biri]

San Ti Shi is a great practice.

Yes, there is pain involved and it is not right for everyone.

On the other hand, all serious Xing Yi Quan practitioners learn to master it - it is a very legitimate and credible method.

 

It took me about 6 months to build up to standing 30 minutes per side per day.

I went through a lot of ups and downs and it never became 'easy' but most people can work through the problems - with proper guidance. I still practice it but much less as my practice has evolved from martial to more health/well being related.

 

It matters quite a bit whether both sides are being practiced as the body needs that balance and if half the time were spent practicing the left side, the problem may not have occured for your friend.

Most of the time, people who develop problems with San Ti Shi do so because they try to stand too long, too soon; or because they have incorrect posture or some underlying issues that interfere. I would also say that standing on one side only is more likely to cause problems than practicing both sides.

 

 

I have talked with my friend and showed the photo to him. He says the stance is not similar however his right arm was extended. He does not agree with your opinion that the symmetric exercise will be helpful. Just for your information.

[PLB]

Isimsiz Biri,

This whole "my friend" thing is hard for me to get a handle on. If it was your experience that you wanted to discuss, then there could be a discussion. Bringing in a third person who is neither here or not here is odd.

The oddness prompts me to mention that Santi Shi is not just standing in the pictured stance but is a plan for focusing the mind on many different elements. As Li Shengli lays it out, there is the six direction force and the twenty four key points to work on. Any one of these elements could be done in a way that leads to a bad result. Or not.

Blaming an injury on using a certain standing posture invites the thought that something else might be involved.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Isimsiz Biri,

This whole "my friend" thing is hard for me to get a handle on. If it was your experience that you wanted to discuss, then there could be a discussion. Bringing in a third person who is neither here or not here is odd.

The oddness prompts me to mention that Santi Shi is not just standing in the pictured stance but is a plan for focusing the mind on many different elements. As Li Shengli lays it out, there is the six direction force and the twenty four key points to work on. Any one of these elements could be done in a way that leads to a bad result. Or not.

Blaming an injury on using a certain standing posture invites the thought that something else might be involved.

 

PLB,

 

First, I am a devout Muslim. I do not tell lies. It was really my friend not myself.

 

Second, I made my friend read this thread and he agreed with me and I already mentioned that too. Is it odd to you? I DO NOT CARE.

 

Third, you do not know neither me nor my friend. His injury was exactly the result of that stance, nothing else was involved. Thank you for your "precious help" though. It was so "helpful"

Edited November 23, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[PLB]

I didn't intend to imply in anyway that you were lying. I wasn't trying to suggest you were talking about yourself. I regret that my comment was felt to be an attack upon yours and your friend's character.

[xor]

Just because your friends did things wrong doesn't mean much. It is healthy when done right.

 

Third, you do not know neither me nor my friend. His injury was exactly the result of that stance, nothing else was involved. Thank you for your "precious help" though. It was so "helpful"

 

Why are you always unnecessarily hostile? I hope you are not like this in real life.

Edited November 23, 2013 by xor

[Isimsiz Biri]

Just because your friends did things wrong doesn't mean much. It is healthy when done right.

 

As I mentioned, my friend's stance was different than the photograph. The common thing was extension of one arm. The Chinese master was real master of real neigong powers (Yin-Yang Gong) similar to John Chang but his level was not as high as John Chang. Again, it was a different stance so we are not talking about the same thing.

 

 

Why are you always unnecessarily hostile? I hope you are not like this in real life.

 

This is your definition. In my terms, I am necessarily hostile. I am exactly like this in real life.

[shenshu]

In a recent video from Bruce Frantzis about Xingyi, he said that he thought that santi shi

(Sun Lutang's santi shi)

 

was the best qigong holding posture (or zhan zhuang). He said he prefers it to hunyuan

(Someone doing hunyuan posture)

 

and other postures of Yiquan/ Dacheng quan

 

I feel this a little strange.

 

I also do both standing postures, and, to me, the second one had more benefits in general.

Santi shi is very good too, the problem is that it becomes "martial" very quickly. It is excellent for fighting purposes, but I find it harder to bring peace of mind with it...

 

Anyway, I'd like other people's thoughts on this.

 

Hey baiqi,

 

In Master Lam Kam Chuen's book the way of power , he teaches santi shi ( he calls it "on guard") has a part of Da Cheng quan curriculum.

 

Also, I know another qigong teacher, who is also a MD, who teaches santi shi for polyarthitis with some success.

 

So although santi shi is usually taught in Xingyi, it can also be found in Da Cheng chuan and even used for some health conditions.

[Isimsiz Biri]

I didn't intend to imply in anyway that you were lying. I wasn't trying to suggest you were talking about yourself. I regret that my comment was felt to be an attack upon yours and your friend's character.

 

No problem, but please trust me, my friend has seen some real masters.

[shenshu]

baiqi,

 

I forgot to say that santi shi is a very yang posture so that may explain why you have some trouble finding peace with it. How long do you stand in this posture?

[xor]

No problem, but please trust me, my friend has seen some real masters.

 

It seems your friends have been hurt by many practices it makes one wonder if you are just trying to create some propaganda to steer people off any practice.

Edited November 23, 2013 by xor

[Isimsiz Biri]

It seems your friends have been hurt by many practices it makes one wonder if you are just trying to create some propaganda to steer people off any practice.

 

Propaganda is a lie. What I told was truth.

[baiqi]

baiqi,

 

I forgot to say that santi shi is a very yang posture so that may explain why you have some trouble finding peace with it. How long do you stand in this posture?

Depends. Usually less than the hunyuan, which I hold for 20-25 minutes in general.

 

Average time would be something between 15 and 20 minutes, I have tried longer, just a few times.

 

Yes, I feel it very yang, I have to struggle with this "I wanna go and do fajing" thing.

[dawei]

Depends. Usually less than the hunyuan, which I hold for 20-25 minutes in general.

 

Average time would be something between 15 and 20 minutes, I have tried longer, just a few times.

 

Yes, I feel it very yang, I have to struggle with this "I wanna go and do fajing" thing.

 

To those who have found the stances useful:

 

Is one of the goals ultimately that one is not 'holding' the position but rather Qi holds the position? Or this does not play a part in the stance?

[baiqi]

Very good point.

[doc benway]

To those who have found the stances useful:

 

Is one of the goals ultimately that one is not 'holding' the position but rather Qi holds the position? Or this does not play a part in the stance?

 

Ultimately, one finds that less and less muscle tension is needed to hold postures.

However, in my opinion and experience, there is never a time when all muscle contraction ('holding') is absent.

[i am]

Is it possible to be in any position at all with all muscles relaxed? Very technically: no. Because the heart is a muscle and there are digestion muscles etc.

 

But slightly less technically: yes. Laying down you could release all skeletal muscles.

 

I cannot imagine it being possible to remain upright without using skeletal muscles.

 

I'd say position 1 with hands at sides would allow the most relaxation. Holding the balloon a bit less, and on from there. No matter how much you relax the extra muscles not needed, but often used to hold each position, you'll still be using some muscles to some extent. The point is to relax them all as much as possible, and stop using the ones you don't need to.

[i am]

But I guess I'd say that allowing qi to "hold" the posture is probably the best way to think about it, and a goal, even if it's an un-achievable goal.