The teaching of Quanzhen

[JohnC]

You are generally correct.. we just need a good translation to english to clear the air. These four lines are parallel in structure and meaning... that is the logic to translating and understanding it:

 

饮酒不醉是英豪 - To drink but not be drunk (be intoxicated), one is advanced (higher control over formalities)

恋色不迷最为高 - To be in love but not be controlled by it, is most high (higher control over sensual emotions)

不义之财不可取 - To wrongly take wealth yet do not take it. (higher control over wealth/avarice)

有气不生气自消 - To have a feeling yet not be angry, the anger has been eliminated from oneself (higher control over strong emotions)

 

Edit: Original third line and basic meaning:

If wealth can be wrongly taken, don't take it

 

 

Profound translation.

 

Btw Vitallii, I dig your doing translations despite some of the hecklers.

[ChiDragon]

饮酒不醉是英豪 - One who drinks but has not been drunken is heroic.

恋色不迷最为高 - One who is indulged in women but not addicted is highly disciplined.




PS.....
@JohnC...........LOL :D

Edited November 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Vitalii]

Ma Danyang said:

 

"Daily practice involves never deceiving or mocking heaven and earth. Always train yourself diligently. Cherish each moment. Do not pass the day in vain.

Decrease your sleep, as this is something that [ordinary] people desire. You should rectify your misdeeds, but this is not only to be done through seated meditation. You should keep your heart-mind stable for a long time. Whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, follow the Dao.

All adepts should quit giving rise to thoughts. Quickly investigate innate nature and life-destiny. If you can just purify the heart-mind and abandon desires, you will become a spirit immortal. Concern yourself with nothing else and stop having doubts! These are proper and true words. You only need to be constantly clear and constantly pure."

 

 

Translated by Louis Komjathy

[Vitalii]

Ma Danyang said:

 

"Each day, you must not forget the matter of daily practice. Daily practice consists of two types: daily external practice (wai riyong 外日用) and daily internal practice (nei riyong 內日用). Considering daily external practice, you are strongly forbidden to see the faults of others, boast about your own virtue, envy the wise and talented, give rise to worldly thoughts that are the fire of ignorance, give rise to feelings of superiority over the masses, [discriminate] between self and other or right and wrong, or to speak of hatred and affection.

Considering daily internal practice, quit giving rise to doubtful thoughts. Never forget the internal. Whether wandering about or standing and sitting, you should clear the heart-mind and discard desires. Have nothing hat hangs on or hinders [your progress]. Do not get defiled and do not cling. In perfect clarity and perfect purity, wander about freely according to your aspirations. Consistently throughout the day contemplate the Dao in the same way a hungry person thinks of food or a thirsty person of drink. If you become aware of the slightest imbalance, you must correct it. If you train yourself in this way, you will become a spirit immortal."

Translated by Louis Komjathy

[Vitalii]

"While the early Quanzhen adepts engaged in prolonged periods of seated meditation and advocated seated meditation as a foundational practice, emphasis was also placed on meditation as a larger approach towards being. In addition to practicing actual seated meditation, Quanzhen practitioners aspired to embody a meditative presence, whether meditating in a secluded hut or engaging in public missionary activity.

The Shiwu lun attributed to Wang Chongyang contains a section entitled “Dazuo” 打坐 (Seated Meditation). According to this text,

“Seated meditation” does not simply mean to sit with the body erect and the eyes closed. This is superficial sitting. To sit authentically, you must maintain a heart-mind like Mount Tai, remaining unmovable and unshakable throughout the entire day. [Maintain this practice] whether standing, walking, sitting, or lying down, whether in movement or stillness. Restrain and seal the Four Gates, namely, the eyes, ears, mouth and nose. Do not allow the external world to enter in. If there is even the slightest trace of a thought about movement and stillness, this cannot be called quiet sitting. If you can practice like this, although your body resides in the world of dust, your name will already be listed in the ranks of the immortals."

Translated by Louis Komjathy

[Vitalii]

I want to add some words about the importance of meditation Da zuo [打坐] and sitting in a motionless calmness and silence 靜坐 [Jing zuo].

 

There are dully sitting meditation and true meditation.

 

Dully sitting is not a true meditation [打坐 - Da zuo], so practitioners need to avoid it.

 

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 said about a true Da zuo [真坐] and a false Da zuo [假坐].

 

Wang Chungyang in 重陽立教十五論 and 重陽真人金關玉鎖訣 said about meditation [打坐] and that meditation is a very important practice. Wang Chungyang said about sitting in a motionless calmness and silence 靜坐 [Jing zuo] and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice.

 

Zhan San Feng in 张三丰祖师参禅歌 said about meditation [打坐] and that meditation is a very important practice.

 

Immortal Zhonglí Quan in Ling Bao Bi Fa (灵宝毕法) said about meditation and that meditation is a very important practice.

Zhonglí Quan said about Alchemy work during sitting cross-legged [盘膝坐] in a motionless calmness and silence [静坐 - Jing zuo]

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32430-neidan-vs-qigong/page-4#entry494319

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32430-neidan-vs-qigong/page-6#entry494646

 

Sima Chengzhen in 坐忘論 said about meditation and that meditation is a very important practice. Sima Chengzhen said about sitting in a motionless calmness and silence and that calm and silence are the main principles of Inner Alchemy.

Zhang San Feng in 道言浅近说 said about calmness and silence and that calm and silence are the main principles of a true practice.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Vitalii

[ChiDragon]

全真(Quan Zhen): "All True" would be a better translation rather than "Complete Perfection".

坐忘: sit and forget. This term is given in Da Zuo, 打坐, meaning quiet sitting and forget oneself to become having a state of selfless. This is why it is so important to meditate in a secluded room to avoid external distraction and disturbance.

Edited November 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

全真(Quan Zhen): "All True" would be a better translation rather than "Complete Perfection".

 

Except in English, "All True" just sounds funny

 

The more common and better sounding and more accurately conveying are:

“Complete Reality” or “Complete Perfection” or "Complete Realization" or “Perfect Realization”

 

That says it... "All True" is almost meaningless.

Edited November 20, 2013 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Except in English, "All True" just sounds funny

 

The more common and better sounding and more accurately conveying are:

“Complete Reality” or “Complete Perfection” or "Complete Realization" or “Perfect Realization”

 

That says it... "All True" is almost meaningless.

Any English speaker agree with that.....???

 

 

PS......

So, you are actually saying, you rather have it mistranslated because you think that is funny.

 

How about 打坐, "hit the seat" it sound funny in Chinese too. But it means "quiet sitting" for meditation. Why would one accept that as is......???

Edited November 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

Any English speaker agree with that.....???

 

Yes. Moreover, since I've been initiated into this school during my Chinese teacher's visit to Russia, I am familiar with the way it is translated into Russian too -- and "all true" ain't it.

 

Ever heard the Italian traduttore traditore -- "translator, traitor?" A literal rendition of what you find in the dictionary is what is meant by this saying, rather well known among professional translators. I used to be one, incidentally... and they teach a professional translator how NOT to translate literally.

 

Amateurs who like correcting "incorrect" translations might do well reading up on that a bit methinks. I did technical translations, often of the texts I flat out couldn't understand unless I educated myself on the subject matter. So the engineers who were my customers would sit down with me and I would ask them to explain the actual process that was the subject matter of the article or book -- for no special term encountered in a specialized context actually meant what you could get from a common dictionary, you needed a specialized one and even that only scratched the surface. How would you translate "pigging," e.g., if you didn't know what the particular process employed in the particular context of occurrence is about?..

Edited November 20, 2013 by Taomeow

[Brian]

Translations are ideally done into the translator's native tongue rather than from that tongue for just this reason.

 

When I was in the woodworking industry, we received an English translation of an Italian manual for a piece of machinery. We knew it was gonna be fun when we saw a chapter in the table of contents called "Fully Grown Given Gods in Memory."

Edited November 20, 2013 by Brian

[ChiDragon]

I can see technical engineering terms have to be interpreted by experts in the field. However, for a simple daily ordinary term does not fit into this category. Anyway, It is all true now that I'm useless here. I guess I'll bow out and let you people translate it anyway you want. You are the majority; and I'm only a minority; here, and who knows little bit about Chinese. So, what the hell do I know.

[dawei]

-- and "all true" ain't it.

 

Ain't that True !

[dawei]

Translations are ideally done into the translator's native tongue rather than from that tongue for just this reason.

 

When I was in the woodworking industry, we received an English translation of an Italian manual for a piece of machinery. We knew it was gonna be fun when we saw a chapter in the table of contents called "Fully Grown Given Gods in Memory."

 

Yes... There are some great examples like that when one uses a dictionary and forgets to consider logic and reason and rational meaning.... ah meaning... now there is an idea...

[dawei]

I can see technical engineering terms have to be interpreted by experts in the field. However, for a simple daily ordinary term does not fit into this category. Anyway, It is all true now that I'm useless here. I guess I'll bow out and let you people translate it anyway you want. You are the majority; and I'm only a minority; here, and who knows little bit about Chinese. So, what the hell do I know.

 

It simply has to have meaning in the native tongue as Brian says... and if it can convey a deeper or the deepest meaning then all the better. It is actually a very ordinary translation with exact meaning in the examples I gave. I hope you can come to see that.

[ChiDragon]

Translations are ideally done into the translator's native tongue rather than from that tongue for just this reason.

 

When I was in the woodworking industry, we received an English translation of an Italian manual for a piece of machinery. We knew it was gonna be fun when we saw a chapter in the table of contents called "Fully Grown Given Gods in Memory."

I think it needs some clarification for what you are saying here. Which translator do you mean....??? The translator is a native or non-native....???

 

Edited to add:

In this case, it sounds like it is ideally to have a native Chinese speaker to translate the Chinese into English to me.

Edited November 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

It simply has to have meaning in the native tongue as Brian says... and if it can convey a deeper or the deepest meaning then all the better. It is actually a very ordinary translation with exact meaning in the examples I gave. I hope you can come to see that.

 

Did you read the last part of Brian's post about an English speaker translated an Italian manual into English and sounded funny. Talking about linguistics, please......!!!

[Brian]

Did you read the last part of Brian's post about an English speaker translated an Italian manual into English and sounded funny. Talking about linguistics, please......!!!

 

Sorry! I should have been more clear. That was an Italian speaker using an online dictionary (probably a translation tool) to translate from Italian to English. The translator didn't understand that while the words were accurate the phrase had no meaning.

 

Most of your translations seem to come across pretty nicely, CD, but occasionally they end up in the weeds. When this is pointed out, please don't take offence. I for one truly appreciate what you do, and how difficult it is to translate into someone else's language.

[baiqi]

I think it needs some clarification for what you are saying here. Which translator do you mean....??? The translator is a native or non-native....???

 

There are a few exceptions to this, but most of the time, the translator should be a native...of the target text, not the source text.

 

This means that if you translate Chinese into English, your mother tongue should be English. And obviously you must know Chinese well.

You could also do a "pre-translation", that would be corrected by a native speaker afterwards.

 

And, hey! Don't take this personnaly, Chidragon, I believe your translating work is quite appreciated around here. It's not because you make a mistake once, or that we disagree with you on some detail that you're a "bad translator". Please stay.

Edited November 20, 2013 by baiqi

[ChiDragon]

Brian, I do appreciate that. Please don't worry, my 定力(Ding Li) is holding me up for not being "sentimental" despite to any adversity.


Edited to add:
@ baiqi....
Thanks...!!! The above statement applies to you too.

Edited November 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Did you read the last part of Brian's post about an English speaker translated an Italian manual into English and sounded funny. Talking about linguistics, please......!!!

 

Brian's meaning is quite clear to those whose native tongue is English... but there are times when I wonder

 

He meant an Italian translated it into English.

 

And he is saying that someone whose native tongue is English should translate the meaning to English... to get that right phrase or meaning.

 

just as you translated the other post about drinking alcohol and to not get drunk is to be a "hero". In english, it is a bit silly to say it that way. It just means that a native will intuit a phrase as meaningful or not much easier than a non-native.

 

I hope you can bear with some of this as it should be helpful.

[Brian]

 

Brian's meaning is quite clear to those whose native tongue is English... but there are times when I wonder

 

Sometimes I eschew obfuscation...

 

Edited November 20, 2013 by Brian

[ChiDragon]

David: "just as you translated the other post about drinking alcohol and to not get drunk is to be a "hero".

 

Is was exactly what it means to a Chinese from century to century. It has to be a Chinese to know it. When you watch Chinese movies next time, you will see the heroes are drinking rice wine with a soup bowl. Drinking one bowl after another. They were competing with each other to see who gets drunk first. The last person who gets drunk last is the big hero. That is our custom. You got that....???

 

 

There are lots of things that you know I might not know and vice versa.

Edited November 20, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

 

Is was exactly what it means to a Chinese from century to century. It has to be a Chinese to know it. When you watch Chinese movies next time, you will see the heroes are drinking rice wine with a soup bowl. Drinking one bowl after another. They were competing with each other to see who gets drunk first. The last person who gets drunk last is the big hero. That is our custom. You got that....???

 

 

There are lots of things that you know I might not know and vice versa.

 

Yes, I am well aware of their attempts to be a drinking hero... for many years I have played that game... and they usually fall flat on the face with me still sitting at the table... It's a bit of gamesmanship and silliness on some level. But that seems to float their hero boat.. or sink it... So in english, we don't play this except in maybe HS or College drinking games.

[Brian]

I learned in college that you could make some cash (and get free beer) by being able to chug a pitcher.

 

Didn't realize how heroic I was, I guess...