The teaching of Quanzhen

[Taomeow]

I think it needs some clarification for what you are saying here. Which translator do you mean....??? The translator is a native or non-native....???

 

Edited to add:

In this case, it sounds like it is ideally to have a native Chinese speaker to translate the Chinese into English to me.

Nope, Dawei was asserting the opposite, and I concur.

 

If you take a trip to China, you will encounter examples of native Chinese speakers translating things into English without being proficient enough in English all over the place, and I guarantee these translations will knock your socks off. I will never forget the mysterious "circumstance begins with you" written on trash bins, or the even more mysterious "mind connects to mind" on a pack of toilet paper rolls, but the greatest of them all was the plunger I bought at the local supermarket when our toilet got clogged. The plunger was, in English, designated as The Sucker, and laudatory text praising its sturdiness and durability went something like, "put it to the mouth, many times, the Sucker will suck and suck and suck!"

 

But if China is too far, go to Ranch 99 Market to read some labels on some products. I still have a picture in my phone from their fish department which designates a particular fish, in large bold letters, as "Red Cod Idiot." I don't know why the poor fish was dissed like that by a native speaker of some other language, and I wound up not buying it -- I like cod but I was afraid that "idiot" refers to whoever buys it rather than the fish itself, which didn't look particularly dumb to me, no dumber than the rest... See what I mean?..

Edited November 21, 2013 by Taomeow

[Taomeow]

But the main problem with translations of taoist texts and taoist terminology (not just ChiDragon's, it's pretty ubiquitous) is that most translators are not taoists and they don't get it right because they don't know the technical side of the process and what is meant by a particular term when a taoist uses it. It is very different from just a native Chinese speaker using a word. Esoteric meanings elude non-esoterically educated translators. Damn, even non-esoteric meanings that are culturally and historically different from contemporary ones...

 

What do you think "polishing the mirror" means to a native speaker of Chinese who never polished a brass mirror by rubbing it against another brass mirror, most probably hasn't even seen one in his life?.. What do you think a translator is going to assume when encountering this in a text on cultivation?

Edited November 21, 2013 by Taomeow

[ChiDragon]

You are talking about the native Chinese in China which are not speaking English in their daily life. Hey, I am living in the US for many years. My English may be bad but it shouldn't be as bad as them. The approach you people are taken will introduce many many errors.

As a matter of fact, when I was in China I saw what's on the steps at the entrance to a restaurant, the warning was this.
小心地滑(Caution, slippery when wet); but the actual English was:
Caution, land slight slide when wet.

@Taomeow.....
I have reservation on the comments that you had made in the above posts. It seems to me it is not too practical to discuss them at all.

Edited November 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

No, of course you are not as bad, but still you would do a much better job translating from English into Chinese, wouldn't you agree? The Chinese text you'd produce would sound Chinese to a Chinese. When you translate Chinese into English, however, the English you produce does not always sound English to a native speaker. (Or a non-native one like me, who is pretty bilingual and yet would never undertake translating my own Russian poetry into English -- way too difficult! )

[ChiDragon]

No, of course you are not as bad, but still you would do a much better job translating from English into Chinese, wouldn't you agree? The Chinese text you'd produce would sound Chinese to a Chinese. When you translate Chinese into English, however, the English you produce does not always sound English to a native speaker. (Or a non-native one like me, who is pretty bilingual and yet would never undertake translating my own Russian poetry into English -- way too difficult! )

 

No, sorry. I cannot agree 100%, it will sound odd either way due the sentence structure in both languages. There are lots of Chinese characters are not even translatable into another language. Let me give you two examples.

 

甥女 was understood it is a niece from from my mother side of the family.

姪 was understood it is a nephew from my father side of the family.

 

In English, a niece and nephew apply to both sides of the families.

 

It seems like have an unsolvable problem here. If we want a translation of the Chinese text by hammering it to fit the English language, then we will have something got lost in the translation. What can we do about that....???

Edited November 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

 

No, sorry. I cannot agree 100%, it will sound odd either way due the sentence structure in both languages. There are lots of Chinese characters are not even translatable into another language. Let me give you two examples.

 

甥女 was understood it is a niece from from my mother side of the family.

姪 was understood it is a nephew from my father side of the family.

 

In English, a niece and nephew apply to both sides of the families.

 

It seems like have an unsolvable problem here. If we want a translation of the Chinese text by hammering it to fit the English language, then we will have something got lost in the translation. What can we do about that....???

 

Study how it's done -- the theory and the practical examples of excellent translations -- and focus on two things:

 

1. The theory calls for creating the matching context instead of the matching word. You have to match meaning for meaning, not term for term. It's very possible to express "a nephew on the father's side" in English -- as you just did -- by using a few extra words. You should never assume that it's an inferior way to go about it, because there will be many examples of the opposite, where you can't express an English word without using several words of Chinese to render it correctly. I seriously suggest that you study some theory and methodology of translation if you are going to do it. It's an art which, to be executed at a high level, requires a talent AND an education -- in general linguistics, stylistics, theoretical grammar, lexicology, what not. Anything that you want to do at a high level demands a lot of you.

 

A sushi chef studies for 8 to 12 years -- do you think making a palatable text out of non-native ingredients is either easier than making sushi, or, alternatively, "impossible?" -- you seem to fluctuate between asserting you are the only one who can do it AND asserting that it can't be done because Chinese can't be "hammered" into English. I submit both positions are wrong and, moreover, are in an oxymoronic relationship to each other, not to confuse with "moronic."

 

2. Study the best examples of the best translations in existence but do NOT demand of them that they are as good as the originals. With truly great works it is impossible to accomplish in any language (unless the translator is even greater than the author and the translated work is better than the original. With less-than-great works, incidentally, it happens. I've read tons of American novels in Russian that I thought were great until I read them in English, LOL.) You have to do the best you can, but you can't expect Laozi in English to be as good as Laozi in Chinese -- so accept the built-in limitations and still do it the best way it can be done.

 

This most certainly means forgetting all about the dictionary. If you still need the dictionary, you are not ready to translate something of this depth. You need to have created a vast and magnificent background knowledge to undertake the task. You need to be an ace in both cultures, English speaking and Chinese speaking, on top of being a proficient practicing taoist, to create something that you can truly be proud of. Something that may outlive you -- like Wilhelm's I Ching, albeit full of assorted shortcomings, is still a wide enough door to enter into this magnificent world, take the first step, stay a while... it lives on long after the imperfect translator is gone, but his imperfections in this case are nowhere near as important as the fact that he invested decades of study (under a taoist teacher) and thoughtful creative work into every single line. It's still imperfect -- but he did enough, let someone else come and improve on what he did.

 

Are you ready to be this someone else vis a vis every Chinese text ever translated into English? Or at least one such text? Maybe you will be one day. But right now you are not, so I do recommend some creative humility and some fertile self-doubt for starters... and some linguistic and taoist education the traditional way. Oh, and a realistic look at how talented you are. Have your peers in high school ever sat mesmerized, holding their breaths, through your presentation of a mundane classroom-assignment essay?.. If they have, you may have what it takes, and it may be time to do something real with it, instead of using the "I'm Chinese and therefore know all things Chinese better than any of you anyway" defensive excuse for not shining the way you want to shine.

 

Sorry for the long sermon... you asked, and you probably regret having asked, but here it is anyway.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Taomeow

[ChiDragon]

"I'm Chinese and therefore know all things Chinese better than any of you anyway" defensive excuse for not shining the way you want to shine.

 

 

From my point of view, this is not the case here. Since the natives have a better understanding of their own language, I will give the primary native speaker the benefit of the doubt to have the final say so.

 

 

I would rather be the guest than the host.

Edited November 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

The theory calls for creating the matching context instead of the matching word. You have to match meaning for meaning, not term for term.

. . .

This most certainly means forgetting all about the dictionary. If you still need the dictionary, you are not ready to translate something of this depth.

 

This is exactly what I wanted to say... Meaning for meaning is an art. It means understanding the context of the originating side, and knowing if it translates as a concept/idea/meaning and how best to do that; and find a comparable fit when there is no 1:1 comparison to be made.

[dawei]

From my point of view, this is not the case here. Since the natives have a better understanding of their own language, I will give the primary native speaker the benefit of the doubt to have the final say so.

 

 

I would rather be the guest than the host.

 

Well, here are three examples... from this thread alone... it is a recurring theme in many of your posts in many thread... so I don't think you are actually being honest with yourself and everyone else:

 

 

Who did that translation.....??? That is very misleading. The logic does not hold as I had indicated in the above post.

Whoever did the translation, it needs to be corrected,...!!!

 

My advice to you is: Test the translation for logic, don't accept it blindly if it doesn't make sense.

 

You consistently question the english translation done by scholars and people who have dedicated their lives to this. I agree with TM pointing out even some academic types don't get the deeper meaning at times but you question those who have lived it. And with such force as if they are so far off base.

 

In the end, you were wrong, more than once trying to push you were right.

 

Any English speaker agree with that.....???

 

 

PS......

So, you are actually saying, you rather have it mistranslated because you think that is funny.

 

You were wrong again...

 

I think it needs some clarification for what you are saying here. Which translator do you mean....??? The translator is a native or non-native....???

 

Edited to add:

In this case, it sounds like it is ideally to have a native Chinese speaker to translate the Chinese into English to me.

 

"IT" did not need clarification; YOU just didn't understand the english, despite you checked you liked his post; then questioned his post.

 

Then your edit was wrong again.

 

No amount of wrongs will make it right. But just accepting these wrongs would; and being honest about how you react in threads.

 

Honestly, I hope my replies are seen as trying to help you see and know yourself better.

[ChiDragon]

Dawei..
I think we have a problem in communication in every way. Let's not do anymore communiation. Period. Thanks.

[baiqi]

I basically agree with Taomew and Dawei on this thread.

 

Chidragon, you just need to ask any translation agency: they will want you to translate into your first language, never the opposite.

Yes, usually Chinese people understand their own culture better than westerners. (Well some Chinese people completely ignore it, but I don't think it's your case...) However, when it comes to writing in English, no one is better than a native English speaker.

 

 

 

There are a few exceptions, though. I think of Nabokov, who was able to translate his own novels into the language of the country in which he was living! And he travelled a lot... But this man was a genius, that's one guy in a million...

 

As for classical Chinese, 古文 you can almost make a "litteral translation". I mean you can almost stop and look each character in detail. (Which is something you can't do in 白话, modern Chinese).

 

However, the problem here is that you almost don't have any grammatical category: you have to choose it when you translate into English. And that choice can make the meaning a little bit different from another translation.

 

 

For example, 全真:

 

You translated it by "all true", which sounds strange. Why? Think of what this is: it is the name of a taoist school. Usually, when you have the name of a Church, religious or philosophical association, you will have at least one name, with an adjective before.

 

Ex: - the Catholic Church

- The Order of....

 

and so on. So, here, you want to have at least one noun.

 

Think of 真. It is true that it means "true". Or "really", and so on. You'll probably not find a noun for it in a modern Chinese/English dictionnary.

But in the translating process, you sometimes need to change the grammar of a given sentence or phrase, in order to make it sound better, or just to let the reader understand it!

 

So, "Complete Reality" is better to me. (And, bth, I think it's better than "Complete Perfection", which is not the same idea)

 

Speaking of Nabokov, have a look at what he wrote about translators. It's cruel, fun, and enlightening.

 

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113310/vladimir-nabokov-art-translation

[ChiDragon]

Things just don't work that way. Chinese is just a strange language if one doesn't adapt their logic. I am so used to it, so, it is not so strange. The Chinese wordings are never as precise as in English. If one look into some of the usages of the characters pointing to an idea, then it is funny and strange.

As for classical Chinese, 古文 you can almost make a "litteral translation". I mean you can almost stop and look each character in detail. (Which is something you can't do in 白话, modern Chinese).

I see your point of view here is the complete opposit. FYI Most of my translations of the classic Chinese was done from 白话文. Otherwise, I need to go to a classic professor for the interpretation. Fortunately, nowadays, it is not hard to find the 白话文 for any classic online. What is strange to me is I have all these westerners telling me how the Chinese translation should be done and meant.

Think of 真. It is true that it means "true". Or "really", and so on. You'll probably not find a noun for it in a modern Chinese/English dictionnary.

 

The character 真 is an esoteric term that the Chinese Taoists often used throughout the Taoist religion. It can be a noun or an adjective or some other meanings compound with other characters within context.

 

Here are some of the esoteric terms:
全真教: All True Cult. "Cult" here is not even close to the meaning of 教.
真人: At some point, a Taoist had cultivated to become a priest will call himself 真人(True Person). I don't think calling him a "Real Person" is appropriate in this case.
真心: True Heart. I don't think "Real Heart" is an appropriate translation in this case.
修真: Cultivate to find my true-self. This is the core to the Taoist religion.

The Chinese Taoists like to use "真(true)" for everything as an adjective to indicate that all things are genuine and pure. If the meaning of 真 was altered to mean something else, then it would be no longer esoteric for the Chinese Taoist religion.


Edited to add:
Finally, most people thought they were translating from Chinese to English. However, they did not realize that they were translating an esoteric Taoist language into English rather than Chinese to English.

Speaking of Nabokov, have a look at what he wrote about translators. It's cruel, fun, and enlightening.

This is exactly what is going to happen to any attempt of a translation. It is just the course of nature that people have to go through. There is no such thing as a perfect translation; and there is always something got lost in the translation. Unless, the translation was done as close as to the original idea with some awkwardness in writing. We just have to accept the fact that we cannot have it perfect both ways.

Edited November 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Vitalii]

"As the ordinary heart-mind is characterized by emotional and intellectual turmoil, confused by desire and agitation, the perfect (or perfected) heart-mind (zhenxin 真心) is characterized by clarity and stillness. While the ordinary heart-mind, in turbidity and agitation, disrupts one’s innate connection with the Dao, the perfected heart-mind, in clarity and stillness, becomes pervaded by the Dao.

In early Quanzhen, the purified and awakened condition of the heart-mind is sometimes spoken of as being “without a heart-mind” (wuxin 無心) or as the “dead heart-mind” (sixin 死心). In more positive terms, it is referred to as the “aligned heart-mind” (zhengxin 正心), “perfected heart-mind” (zhenxin 真心), or “stabilized heart-mind” (dingxin 定心). The Quanzhen adept becomes so free from emotional and intellectual turmoil that he or she no longer has a heart-mind as conventionally and mistakenly understood.

Ma Danyang explains, “[The state of ] no-mind is not the same as the stupid mindlessness of cats and dogs. It means striving to keep your heart-mind in the realm of clarity and purity and being free of deviant states of consciousness. Thus ordinary people (suren 俗人) have no mind of clarity and purity, while Daoists (daoren 道人) have no mind of dust and defilement. But this is not complete mindlessness, and it is not like the condition of trees and rocks or cats and dogs”

Thus, the early Quanzhen adepts emphasized the central importance of meditation, as both a technique of transformation and all-pervasive existential approach, as well as the cultivation of clarity and stillness. Through meditative praxis and daily application, turbidity and agitation would decrease, while clarity and stillness would increase. The early Quanzhen renunciant could realize his or her original context of sacred immersion. As stillness deepens, clarity becomes more expansive. The heart-mind again becomes a lodging place for spirit, and the adept becomes spiritually aligned with the Dao."

Translated by Louis Komjathy

[dawei]

The character 真 is an esoteric term that the Chinese Taoists often used throughout the Taoist religion. It can be a noun or an adjective or some other meanings compound with other characters within context.

 

Here are some of the esoteric terms:

全真教: All True Cult. "Cult" here is not even close to the meaning of 教.

真人: At some point, a Taoist had cultivated to become a priest will call himself 真人(True Person). I don't think calling him a "Real Person" is appropriate in this case.

真心: True Heart. I don't think "Real Heart" is an appropriate translation in this case.

 

The Chinese Taoists like to use "真(true)" for everything as an adjective to indicate that all things are genuine and pure. If the meaning of 真 was altered to mean something else, then it would be no longer esoteric for the Chinese Taoist religion.

 

 

Edited to add:

Finally, most people thought they were translating from Chinese to English. However, they did not realize that they were translating an esoteric Taoist language into English rather than Chinese to English.

 

The problem is that your still wrong. Even if 100 people said it, I can accept that someone is simply not ready for 'Complete Reality' of the situation.

 

Your try to make up an excuse for what you are trying to do instead of just listening and seeing where you are wrong.

 

True Person... true to what? His faith, belief, church, family, job? He is truthful? The associated words are lacking and thus the meaning is meaning, in English.

 

Real Person... Real, Reality, Realized, Realization... the associated words create a full picture of meaning. Maybe Realized Person is better but the point is that Real is the esoteric english word to use for the esoteric chinese word.

 

> "they did not realize that they were translating an esoteric Taoist language into English rather than Chinese to English."

 

 

There are always two sides to the coin:

1. Lack of understanding the source (meaning, esoteric, etc)

2. Lack of finding the correspondence in the target

 

You keep claiming the former issue but neglect the obvious latter case. Keep both sides in view and see which one is lacking. They work on that side of the coin.

Edited November 21, 2013 by dawei

[dawei]

 

Translated by Louis Komjathy

 

I don't recall if you mentioned a source text..

 

Is it his work:

Cultivating Perfection Mysticism and Self-transformation in Early Quanzhen Daoism?

[ChiDragon]

修真: One cultivates to find one's true-self. This is the core to the Taoist religion.

真...真...真, if one knows what that means, not in English nor in Chinese but in Taoist.

Edited November 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

修真: One cultivates to find one's true-self. This is the core to the Taoist religion.

 

真...真...真, if one knows what that means, not in English nor in Chinese but in Taoist.

 

That is not the point... that is readily understood by most... that is one side of the coin.

 

The issue is the other side of the coin...

 

Of course, we can create a translation of two characters using 100 english words and then we'll get the entire meaning across... but if one is translating in context (2 characters >> 2-4 words) then the word choice is very important in terms of meaning and context, not just what a dictionary says.

 

It is fairly easy to see a translation done by non-English person as it often simply reads and sounds wrong/off/funny. TO the person who wrote it, it may seem fine... there is no way to make it any more clear to them unless they are actually interested in self-improvement in translation, grammar, and communicating between two languages about the meaning... but this was already stated by another...

Edited November 21, 2013 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

I'll let Nature take its course on this one.

[Brian]

<snip>

The character 真 is an esoteric term that the Chinese Taoists often used throughout the Taoist religion. It can be a noun or an adjective or some other meanings compound with other characters within context.

<snip>

Yes, but the English word "true" does not have that flexibility in and of itself. It is an adjective. There are some specific applications in which the word is used as a verb (for instance, "to true a bicycle wheel" means to adjust the tension on the spokes such as to draw the rim into shape) but it is generally NOT a noun. As such, using a phrase like "All True" does not convey the meaning you intended even though the individual words may translate that way.

 

Your niece and nephew example is another instance where the dictionary fails you. You are absolutely correct in stating that the words niece and nephew do not carry the full meaning of the Chinese characters. Whereas you see this as an unsolvable problem, however, and feel it is appropriate to simply drop in the "correct" translated word, the native English speaker finds that approach clumsy and ineffective, preferring instead to leverage the many nuanced phrasing options the language affords in order to properly express the writer's intent. I can think of perhaps half a dozen variations off the top of my head that convey slightly different subtleties.

 

Please be aware, however, that your English is not only a bazillion times better than my Chinese, your writing is better than that of many native English speakers. Heck! We have more than a few native English speakers on this forum who have more trouble using the written language than you do!

 

As you strive to teach us about the meaning of phrases and texts from the Chinese language, please let us also teach you about the intricacies of the English language. That way, we all learn and your translation skills become even more beneficial to the community!

 

_/\_

Edited November 21, 2013 by Brian

[Vitalii]

I don't recall if you mentioned a source text..

 

Is it his work:

Cultivating Perfection Mysticism and Self-transformation in Early Quanzhen Daoism?

 

Yes

[ChiDragon]

Brain...
We are still trying. I guess I'm just having one foot in one realm and the other foot in another. That is why we are having difficulty in our communication. Thank you for given me the opportunity to find my true self. I will never know if no one gives me a chance to know by pointing out the differences in our understanding. Thanks.

Edited July 29, 2014 by ChiDragon

[opendao]

Yes, but the English word "true" does not have that flexibility in and of itself. It is an adjective. There are some specific applications in which the word is used as a verb (for instance, "to true a bicycle wheel" means to adjust the tension on the spokes such as to draw the rim into shape) but it is generally NOT a noun. As such, using a phrase like "All True" does not convey the meaning you intended even though the individual words may translate that way.

 

真 = truth (noun for true)

 

So Quanzhen is just Perfect (=Complete from the traditional point of view) Truth, nothing about Realization or Complete Perfection, or, even more, Reality.

Edited November 21, 2013 by opendao

[Taomeow]

An aside: I much prefer simple transliterations (quanzhen, dantien, taiji) with extensive footnotes to any and all translations of key terms that simply don't translate. Especially when the translator builds his or her understanding (usually derived from some other system, one he or she is already familiar with) into how things will be translated. So we wind up with "chakras" used interchangeably with "dantiens," "prana" or "energy" for qi, "spirit" for shen, "five elements" for wuxing, it's a huge, huge mess.

 

A samovar is not a big tea kettle, not a furnace for making tea, not a percolator, not a tea pot, not a steam engine, not a transmission, not a rocket, not a spade. A samovar is a samovar. Translate it and destroy anyone's chance to understand what it is.

 

How much more true for quanzhen, ling, houtian... As much more true as these notions are more complex than a samovar.

 

Yet the cavalry attacks on the fortress of specialized terms never cease. Translators imagine that the fortress is hanging in emptiness, not surrounded by anything in particular, and is made of paper sheets mined from a dictionary. In reality it stands firmly on the ground that gave rise to it, particular architects erected it with a specific goal in mind, the stones that went into building it were procured from a mountain nearby, the wells whence the inhabitants draw their water are all local and placed in specific spots just so, otherwise no one could live in that fortress. It gets all its food supplies from the nearby village. It is guarded against intruders by a well-trained army possessing inside information of its layout. It is impenetrable from the outside and can only be known for what it is from the inside. And even then there's secret chambers that even the inner inhabitants are not privy to. And even then there's dungeons where a visitor might get trapped and never see anything of that fortress save for the inside of his prison cell. And there's a vast network of tunnels connecting this fortress to -- other fortresses, other dimensions, freedom?.. Who knows. You have to have been there done that.

 

So, let's call it complete, real, all true, all false, perfect, imperfect, a transmission, a spade -- it does not take us an inch closer to the inside of the fortress of quanzhen. Alternatively, call it quanzhen and gain access inside -- and then tell the world what it is, in as many words as needed, which is as many as it takes, not one word more, not one word less. That's translation in my book. Open a samovar, look inside. Put some pine cones in the heating shaft in the center, light them with some kindling, boil some water, make some pine-flavored tea concentrate, and so on -- voila, you know what a samovar is. Will you still want to call it something else rather than a "samovar?" What in the name of tap-dancing gods for?

 

A native speaker who knows a million ways to point out how a samovar is not a tea kettle but has never seen or used one should stay out of the fortress of the samovar. Word.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Taomeow

[opendao]

A natie speaker who knows a million ways to point out how a samovar is not a tea kettle but has never seen or used one should stay out of the fortress of the samovar. Word.

 

Good example. If you explain the etymology of "samovar" ("boil by itself") then readers can understand it much better. If you explain the etymology of 真, then readers can make their own conclusion about Quanzhen title. Why do we need so many words to explain the title of this school?

 

The teaching of Quanzhen is not in the title. It is not even in texts. So the masters of the past, when they wrote books, they didn't try to explain what Quanzhen is or is not. They just put words that resonate with Shen-Spirit. That's it. But you need to be a traditional Chinese so it works this way for you. When we read English translations, our Shen resonates to the understanding of the translator, and usually it's just wrong (you've described in previous post why). That's what is really hard: translate the impact from one language and culture to another.

 

And it would be interesting to read about your understanding of Quanzhen.

[ChiDragon]

Quanzhen is about trying to find the truth(真) about oneself in Taoist term. However, people do not want to know the truth but kept on running farther and farther away from it.

Why does it has to be putted in the proper English format to understand it.....???

It is all true, nothing but the truth. One should be able to grok its meaning by now.



PS....
What really bothers me was.....
Why people spent so much time in the school for the practice and still don't know what it is....???

Edited November 21, 2013 by ChiDragon