The teaching of Quanzhen

[Brian]

Most of the translation-related discussion in this thread appears to have been about translation rather than about quanzhen.

 

 

I fully agree with Taomeow about purposeful transliteration, BTW.

[ChiDragon]

"Transliteration" cannot and will not happen. One can only do Pinyin for the one syllable Chinese characters.

[opendao]

Quanzhen is about trying to find the truth(真) about oneself in Taoist term. However, people do not want to know the truth but kept on running farther and farther away from it.

 

Why does it has to be putted in the proper English format to understand it.....???

 

It is all true, nothing but the truth. One should be able to grok its meaning by now.

 

 

 

PS....

What really bothers me was.....

Why people spent so much time in the school for the practice and still don't know what it is....???

 

 

Because it is complicated. To understand, what is Truth for traditional Daoist POV, you need also clearly understand what is Good and Bad in that tradition. Most people don't know. So it's not just "it is all true", it's more deep. It gives a direction.

[dawei]

"Transliteration" cannot and will not happen. One can only do Pinyin for the one syllable Chinese characters.

 

That is exactly what was said... Please bear with a little english lesson:

 

Definition: "Transliteration refers to the method of mapping from one system of writing to another based on phonetic similarity."

Taomeow:

An aside: I much prefer simple transliterations (quanzhen, dantien, taiji)

<<< NOTE PINYIN

Brian:

I fully agree with Taomeow about purposeful transliteration, BTW.

<<< NOTE AGREEMENT.

You have unknowingly agreed with them while arguing against them.

It seems we all agree though, yes?

[ChiDragon]

 

That is exactly what was said... Please bear with a little english lesson:

Definition: "Transliteration refers to the method of mapping from one system of writing to another based on phonetic similarity."

I just love to see this happen in the systems of being discussed.

Edited November 22, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

I just love to see this happen in the systems of being discussed.

 

What you wrote means: You like this when it happens...

 

Or do you mean: You wish it would happen?

 

Bear with me on this... I am in the mood to help here. I just want to understand your point and see if we can agree somewhere.

[ChiDragon]

I wish it can happen but I doubt it.

[Taomeow]

Some of the greatest deities of the taoist pantheon (tianzun ) were not Han Chinese. Even for Guanyin (Kwan Yin), Chinese was a foreign language she didn't master till she became a taoist goddess.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Taomeow

[dawei]

ye of little faith...

 

What is the Truth? What is the True Person capable of?

 

Closing doors which are open?

[dawei]

真 = truth (noun for true)

 

So Quanzhen is just Perfect (=Complete from the traditional point of view) Truth, nothing about Realization or Complete Perfection, or, even more, Reality.

 

The problem I have with this is that one is still asking the question... Truth about what? Just spill the beans... Lets get to the root of the meaning.

 

Huangdi and Zhuangzi use the phrase in ancient writings.... so the idea is in the ancient past... but nobody can actually say it yet.

[_王彗_]

Yes, I translated this text [and many other] from Chinese to Russian.

 

So what`s the point to post "Translated by Louis Komjathy" in here?

It`s open-sourced and not interesting.

[_王彗_]

Truth about what?

 

You should know, that all ancient taoist texts are made to teach the disciples, not every one in the world.

So practice, and teacher ARE necessary for understanding. No one can jump over it.

 

By the way about truth and lies, good and evil, it`s not just the words, depended on the point of view, it`s absolutely clear vectors, that can be seen and uderstood with practice.

 

Best wishes,

王彗

Edited November 22, 2013 by _王彗_

[Vitalii]

in Neiguan jing says:

"The way of inner observation (內觀) involves stilling spirit and stabilizing the heart-mind. Confusion and imagining must not arise; deviance (xie 邪) and disorder must not usurp. Keep a firm hold on your body and your surroundings. Close your eyes and begin conscious investigation. Internally and externally, empty and silent, both spirit and the Dao are subtle and deep. Externally, observe the myriad mental projections (wanjing 萬境).

Internally, examine the unified heart-mind. Realized in illuminated stillness, stillness and confusion [as distinguishable] are both dispelled. While one thought follows another, you maintain a deep root, and calmness is complete. Constantly abiding, your obscurity cannot be fathomed. Sorrow and suffering are dispelled forever, and there is no more consciousness (shi 識) of right and wrong."

(Neiguan jing, DZ 641, 6b–7a; cf. Kohn 1989b, 222)

Edited November 22, 2013 by Vitalii

[dawei]

You should know, that all ancient taoist texts are made to teach the disciples, not every one in the world.

So practice, and teacher ARE necessary for understanding. No one can jump over it.

 

By the way about truth and lies, good and evil, it`s not just the words, depended on the point of view, it`s absolutely clear vectors, that can be seen and uderstood with practice.

 

Best wishes,

王彗

 

 

Yes... but as someone remarked:

 

> "Why people spent so much time in the school for the practice and still don't know what it is....???"

 

In the end... nobody has yet to say what this truth or reality is actually talking about...

[ChiDragon]

You should know, that all ancient taoist texts are made to teach the disciples, not every one in the world.

So practice, and teacher ARE necessary for understanding. No one can jump over it.

 

By the way about truth and lies, good and evil, it`s not just the words, depended on the point of view, it`s absolutely clear vectors, that can be seen and uderstood with practice.

 

Best wishes,

王彗

 

There is a language barrier between the English and Chinese Systems. The English Language System(ELS) does not have the capability to handle the translation for the Chinese Language System(CLS). By the time the translation was done, the ELS regurgitates because it cannot handle the concept written in a different format. It was rejected due to some technicalities which the ELS does not have the flexibility to verbalize the thoughts in the CLS. The ELS was so concerned with the grammar and sentence structure. Instead follow the concept through but the semantics was heavily criticized if anything was out of line.

 

 

PS.....

Perhaps, this is where the truth lies......!!!

Ref: The Truth(not translated due to distortion might occur)

Edited November 22, 2013 by ChiDragon

[opendao]

The problem I have with this is that one is still asking the question... Truth about what? Just spill the beans... Lets get to the root of the meaning.

 

Huangdi and Zhuangzi use the phrase in ancient writings.... so the idea is in the ancient past... but nobody can actually say it yet.

 

try to guess:

 

This is an ancient (veryyy ancient) understanding of Truth.

Edited November 22, 2013 by opendao

[gendao]

甥女 was understood it is a niece from from my mother side of the family.

姪 was understood it is a nephew from my father side of the family.

Those could simply be translated as "maternal niece" and "paternal nephew."

真 = truth (noun for true)

 

So Quanzhen is just Perfect (=Complete from the traditional point of view) Truth, nothing about Realization or Complete Perfection, or, even more, Reality.

I agree, I don't see how 真 = perfection, or even realization..

 

You'd have to ask the founder what he really meant, but perhaps a better translation would be:

"Whole Truth"

As in..."The truth, the Whole Truth and nothing but the truth!"

"Whole" also being connotated with "holistic."

 

One thing to remember is that Chinese is not as grammatically-complex as English. Words in themselves are often preserved more as their basic "pure" concepts to get further specified by their context, rather than a slight alteration to the word itself (like in English). Which also illustrates different cultural mindsets - where "Western science" loves to analyze individual data points but Chinese focus more on connecting them to see the bigger picture..

Edited November 22, 2013 by vortex

[ChiDragon]

I agree, I don't see how 真 = perfection, or even realization..

 

You'd have to ask the founder what he really meant, but perhaps a better translation would be:

"Whole Truth"

As in..."The truth, the Whole Truth and nothing but the truth!"

"Whole" also being connotated with "holistic."

 

One thing to remember is that Chinese is not as grammatically-complex as English. Words in themselves are often preserved more as their basic "pure" concepts to get further specified by their context, rather than a slight alteration to the word itself (like in English). Which also illustrates different cultural mindsets - where "Western science" loves to analyze individual data points but Chinese focus more on connecting them to see the bigger picture..

Quan Zen(全真) is rather saying everything(all) is the truth instead of the whole(holistic) truth.

 

How would you going about translating Quan Zen(全真) ....???

 

 

Edited November 22, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

try to guess:

 

This is an ancient (veryyy ancient) understanding of Truth.

 

Finally we are getting to the 'truth'... It is not about the word itself or such silliness like "all is truth". I hope we can 'rise' above dictionaries here.

 

One ought to see the playfulness in the idiom as related to the part above and below in the graph: 七上八下...

 

There are four parts in it but with one meaning... [The dormant self in] spiritual transformation

 

The conveyance was said to be in one of three ways: A dragon, Qi, and a deer...

 

I prefer the bronze representation of more like a cauldron and the 'upside down man' transforming from 'self' and arising to his destiny...

 

[ChiDragon]

Those could simply be translated as "maternal niece" and "paternal nephew."

Okay! That was an easy one. Now, try these:

 

伯(bo2): the older brother of one's father.

叔(shu2): the younger brother of one's father.

 

A Chinese would say: "This is my 伯(bo2)."

An English: "This is my father's older brother."

 

A Chinese: "This is my 叔(shu2)."

An English: "This is my father's younger brother."

 

A Chinese: "This is my 二叔(er4 shu2)."

An English: "This is my father's second younger brother."

 

 

[ChiDragon]

It is not about the word itself or such silliness like "all is truth".

The silliness is not "all is the truth" alright......!!!
The silliness is how can the English language convey the idea of "all is the truth".

[Taomeow]

The brilliant Summa Technologiae by Stanislaw Lem (published in 1964) gives an example of the kind of communication that is impossible to translate.

 

A telegram (the book was written in 1964 when there were telegrams -- by the way, translate this one to someone born in 2000!) intercepted by, say, a Zeta Reticuli UFO (don't remember which hypothetical alien race was used as an example in the original) reads, "Granny died, funeral Wednesday." They have a dictionary, they read the telegram, and here's what they come up with (recreating from memory):

 

Granny: a version of "grandmother" used by an immature (not fully unfolded at the time of its creation) earthling human speaking one of the earthling human languages known as English. Language: the earthlings' method of communication via transmitting and receiving particular sounds, which can also be presented as visual symbols. Visual: perceived and analyzed via a processing mechanism that can discern a narrow band of electromagnetic wavelengths known to the earthlings as "visible light" or "visible spectrum." Visible light: the range a human "eye" is capable of perceiving -- 390 to 700 nm (see also Earthlings' Measuring Units.). Grandmother: the species under scrutiny replicate by what they call "sexual reproduction." This means two specimens combine their genetic material to create a third one. The two specimens are of different "genders." A "gender" is a set of biological differences, binary in nature. Only a binary combination of "opposite" "genders" produces a third one. One of the members of the binary set is a "man" and the other, a "woman." Each of them in its turn had a binary set of "parents" that produced them. Each "parent" had a set of parents. The "female" unit of the set of parents of parents is called a "grandmother," which is the same as "granny." (This is by far not all that should go into explaining what a "granny" means to an earthling, but that's a start.)

 

If "granny" requires such extensive footnotes to explain it to a species that does not reproduce sexually, communicate verbally, or use eyes to perceive electromagnetic waves, imagine explaining "died" to a species that is immortal (for an earthling example, a lobster is -- unless killed, it does not die of natural causes, but imagine a species that can't die of unnatural causes either, due to peculiarities of their biological organization), and then explain "funeral" to them after they were unable to grasp "died," and then explain "Wednesday" to them if they don't have a concept of time or do have a concept of time but not of our linear record-keeping nature, and you will see how "translations" are actually an ultimate impossibility unless you are dealing with an identical creature in the target and in the source. This has deep and vast philosophical implications... which I leave to your imagination. But if we do not require identical match between the source and the target to be understood, then we should remember that Chinese and English are both human earthlings, so it should be a tad easier to explain one to the other than to, say, a Zeta Reticuli...

[dawei]

The silliness is not "all is the truth" alright......!!!

The silliness is how can the English language convey the idea of "all is the truth".

 

Just more silliness in that statement... In english, I mean.

 

What is "all" ?

 

What is "truth" ?

 

You can only spam the idea so many times....

[ChiDragon]

I see more spams from the silly guy portraying himself that he has the full authority in the forum and deceiving all the members.

[dawei]

I see more spams from the silly guy portraying himself that he has the full authority in the forum and deceiving all the members.

 

Stay on topic. Or stop posting. It is really that simple...