The teaching of Quanzhen

[ChiDragon]

Stay on topic. Or stop posting. It is really that simple...

Speak for yourself. I did request to have our communication to be ceased few days back.

[dawei]

Speak for yourself. I did request to have our communication to be ceased few days back.

 

Then why don't you do what you say you will do... Just stop.

 

You requested it but cannot do it yourself. How relevant to 'complete reality' is that?

[Mal]

 

In my experience, even in their native spoken language, most people struggle to communicate clearly without misunderstandings. Written language adds more opportunities for misunderstanding.

 

So no need to "do ya block" (very understandable to Australians - hopefully confusing to everyone else )

[xor]

You may want to resolve this argument over PMs. This thread has already been reported for derailing so don't make more unnecessary work for the moderator team please.

[dawei]

 

 

Finally we are getting to the 'truth'... It is not about the word itself or such silliness like "all is truth". I hope we can 'rise' above dictionaries here.

 

One ought to see the playfulness in the idiom as related to the part above and below in the graph: 七上八下...

 

There are four parts in it but with one meaning... [The dormant self in] spiritual transformation

 

The conveyance was said to be in one of three ways: A dragon, Qi, and a deer...

 

I prefer the bronze representation of more like a cauldron and the 'upside down man' transforming from 'self' and arising to his destiny...

 

 

 

Here is the modern character, Zhen: 真

 

The older character has the top as 'transformation' instead of just '10': 眞

 

This is how one can see my joke about the idiom: 七上八下 : 7 on top of 8 below; now you can the older version, as if 七 is on top and 八 is below... but it is not the character for 7, 七, but 匕... and yet the bottom has the appearance of 八 (eight)... why?

 

It takes 8 people to carry on their shoulder the king...

 

Ok, back to the character parts...

 

Shuo Wen said of 眞: 僊人變形而登天也 - An Immortal ("Xian"-transcendent one) transforms shape and ascends to heaven.

 

The parts:

匕 - man, arising

目 - eye, pertaining to senses or inner seeing or body;

自 - self;

乚 - Hidden, secret; nobody can see or know it

八 - Carried or conveyed or moved or supported

 

The meaning is much deeper than just truth or real... It is about one's destiny.

[Taomeow]

Great, thank you, Dawei!

 

Put like that, the character comes very close to describing what quanzhen is about.

 

It even tells the story of the methods of cultivation! My god, what a language! It "reveals and conceals" in one breath, or rather in one flash, just like the old Indo-European word "black," which meant "shining white," "a flash of light," or "flashing in various bright colors!" We lost this way to use our language... and in my experience, modern Chinese lost this way to use theirs, although it preserved ancient wisdom much better... but ancient wisdom just doesn't take root in a mind thwarted by misuse and abuse, not cultivated to match the mind of the original creators.

 

And because it no longer comes naturally, taoist schools in search of restoring the original, whole, true, complete, real and perfect human mind developed their methods and methodologies... Quanzhen is one such methodology, is what it is.

 

Such is truth...

Edited November 23, 2013 by Taomeow

[Walker]

I see more spams from the silly guy portraying himself that he has the full authority in the forum and deceiving all the members.

I see you have finally begun rereading your posts after submitting them.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Here is the modern character, Zhen: 真

 

[....]

 

The parts:

匕 - man, arising

目 - eye, pertaining to senses or inner seeing or body;

自 - self;

乚 - Hidden, secret; nobody can see or know it

八 - Carried or conveyed or moved or supported

 

The meaning is much deeper than just truth or real... It is about one's destiny.

I hope I'm not being arbitrary, but isn't 匕 an eating utensil? Also, I noticed that 八 eight also means "all around, all sides" (of the bagua).

 

So to me Zhen seems to suggest "tasting that which is hidden from view yet is everywhere," or, in the right context, could say "tasting that which is hidden and seeing the bagua in completion," or in another context "seeing that which is hidden in the completion of the bagua, thereby cutting through false perception."

[baiqi]

Actually, I think the concept of "zhen" is central. They even call "zhen ren" (real man) somebody who got the highest level of achievement.

 

Let's leave aside all the problems and disagreements about linguistics. what is "true", "reality" and what is not?

 

To me, the Dao is real, the rest is only illusion. But then what is the Dao?

 

All the methods are aimed towards that goal, how to shake off all falsehood and only live the truth/reality. It's not about knowing it intellectually (words and concepts are limited, if not a danger), it's about realizing it.

[dawei]

I hope I'm not being arbitrary, but isn't 匕 an eating utensil? Also, I noticed that 八 eight also means "all around, all sides" (of the bagua).

 

So to me Zhen seems to suggest "tasting that which is hidden from view yet is everywhere," or, in the right context, could say "tasting that which is hidden and seeing the bagua in completion," or in another context "seeing that which is hidden in the completion of the bagua, thereby cutting through false perception."

 

Look at the oracle bone for bi... in this application/context, a true/real man arises/ascends out of the concealed/false/illusionary self

 

 

Shuo Wen says of 匕, one of the various meanings: 從反人 , from another side of man. (A true or real side)

 

As Shuo Wen says of 眞, a Xian Ren arises. In ancent thinking, people could not see the inner immortal hidden away.

Edited November 23, 2013 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

I see you have finally begun rereading your posts after submitting them.

 

Welcome back. I haven't seen you for awhile.

 

Yes, I do consider ill-will remarks are spams but we really don't need them here.....???

[Antares]

Lads, plese, stop going so much theoretical. What are the authentic practical aspects of this school? Any good sources on it? Teachers? Will appreciate proper answers.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Master Wu Zhongxian has a very well connected lineage in the Hidden Immortals sect, which has Alchemy transmission from Haichanzi Liu Cao, the originator of the Southern Quan Zhen sect, and teacher of Zhang Boduan.

 

You can also see how Zhang Sanfeng inherited the Neidan teachings in the Yin Xianpai 隱仙派 "Hidden Immortals lineage," and the interweaving of Tai Chi and I Ching prediction teachings that continued through this lineage to Wu Zhongxian. Wu Zhongxian teaches openly, and covers many many facets of Daoist practices and teachings.

 

Of course, as always, it depends on the students self-application as to how much he or she will learn.

 

Here is the Yin Xianpai lineage history:

http://www.masterwu.net/MasterWuHiddenImmortalLineage.html

 

 

note: I am not affiliated with Yin Xianpai

[Taomeow]

Lads, plese, stop going so much theoretical. What are the authentic practical aspects of this school? Any good sources on it? Teachers? Will appreciate proper answers.

 

 

I'm not one of the lads, but I hope I'll do.

 

Quanzhen is a branch of taoism comprised of seven schools. Its lineage originates with Wang Chongyang who learned from the taoist immortals Zhongli Quan and Lu Dongbin in the 12th century. He had seven disciples who each founded a taoist school. Throughout its long and rich history, Quanzhen alternated between periods of great influence and periods of persecution and destruction, which is why it has the deepest roots in Chinese culture and also retains the protective tradition of keeping some of its key teachings secret and available only via oral transmissions to the initiated.

 

Quanzhen was the first monastic branch of taoism, following the Buddhist-influenced separation of lay practices and formal religious institutions. It remained vital despite this turn, with many taoists of other school seeing it as a must to come spend at least some time in Quanzhen communities, due to its development of a vast body of teachings and techniques on self-cultivation. One of these was zuobo, a communal practice of alchemical meditation. This is what one may find today when getting a foot in the door... and often assume, incorrectly, that it's some modern twist -- nope, it's authentic and was developed in the spirit of Quanzhen's overall "democratic" leanings -- the practice itself would make whoever is special special, long-lived, with many "supernatural" abilities, and ultimately immortal if everything goes right.

 

The only Quanzhen school I am familiar with personally is Longmen Pai. The current transmitter, master Wang Liping, is well known, so you can find the information in many places besides TTB. Thomas Cleary translated his biography written by two of his disciples a number of years ago, it would be a very useful read if you want to know more -- "Opening The Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard." Hope it helps.

[Antares]

The only Quanzhen school I am familiar with personally is Longmen Pai. The current transmitter, master Wang Liping, is well known, so you can find the information in many places besides TTB

 

Hmm, I did 5 minutes search and I found information about doctor Baolin Wu who transmitts some practical Quanzhen' aspects. And it' far not sitting method akin to Wang Liping' who seems to be a little commercial to me. I do not want to offend anybody but money WL is asking for his teaching is too much and I have another information about Quanzhen' (Longmen) authentic methods. But thanks.

[opendao]

Master Wu Zhongxian has a very well connected lineage in the Hidden Immortals sect, which has Alchemy transmission from Haichanzi Liu Cao, the originator of the Southern Quan Zhen sect, and teacher of Zhang Boduan.

 

You can also see how Zhang Sanfeng inherited the Neidan teachings in the Yin Xianpai 隱仙派 "Hidden Immortals lineage," and the interweaving of Tai Chi and I Ching prediction teachings that continued through this lineage to Wu Zhongxian. Wu Zhongxian teaches openly, and covers many many facets of Daoist practices and teachings.

 

Of course, as always, it depends on the students self-application as to how much he or she will learn.

 

Here is the Yin Xianpai lineage history:

http://www.masterwu.net/MasterWuHiddenImmortalLineage.html

 

Maybe you know then why he teaches Zhaobao taijiquan instead of Zhang Sanfeng's version?

[Vitalii]

Hmm, I did 5 minutes search and I found information about doctor Baolin Wu who transmitts some practical Quanzhen' aspects. And it' far not sitting method akin to Wang Liping' who seems to be a little commercial to me. I do not want to offend anybody but money WL is asking for his teaching is too much and I have another information about Quanzhen' (Longmen) authentic methods. But thanks.

 

"Author Baolin Wu specializes in Nine Palaces Solar Qi Gong which works with the energy of the son, and trains practioners to expel toxins and intake healthy qi through the nine openings--palaces-- of the body.

Qi Gong for Well-Being is a clear, illustrated guide to Qi Gong, the ancient self-healing art that combines movement, meditation, and visualization to boost energy and improve health".

 

http://www.amazon.com/Gong-Total-Wellness-Longevity-Monastery/dp/product-description/0312262337

[Taomeow]

Hmm, I did 5 minutes search and I found information about doctor Baolin Wu who transmitts some practical Quanzhen' aspects. And it' far not sitting method akin to Wang Liping' who seems to be a little commercial to me. I do not want to offend anybody but money WL is asking for his teaching is too much and I have another information about Quanzhen' (Longmen) authentic methods. But thanks.

 

 

Every master I know who comes from China (not Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, or the US) was poorer than most of you can begin to imagine for the longest time, and every one of them is doing very well financially today. Every one of them is authentic, hard-working, and has unique "goods" to offer to those who are capable of prioritizing their lives so as to get them. All of their learning and practice predating their financial success by several decades happened while they were living in abject poverty.

 

I have only one thing to say to all those countless middle-class freebie seekers who, never having known hunger, back-breaking labor since early age, or any material privations whatsoever, continuously launch diatribes against masters going "commercial."

 

And that is, if it was up to me, I'd take everything you ever had through no merit of yours, just because you were born into more cushioned circumstances, and take it back in time and give to those kids who are now elderly men and women finally living close to your standard of living which you consider your birthright and which is in reality your dumb luck. I'd eliminate dumb luck and make this world a meritocracy. But of course it's only a dream...

 

...for now.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Taomeow

[Antares]

That' not Wang Liping's version of meditation as far as I understood. Is there anything in common in both of these methods?

[Antares]

I have only one thing to say to all those countless middle-class freebie seekers who, never having known hunger, back-breaking labor since early age, or any material privations whatsoever, continuously launch diatribes against masters going "commrecial."

 

And that is, if it was up to me, I'd take everything you ever had through no merit of yours, just because you were born into more cushioned circumstances

 

Exuse me, after university I was to work for government organisation for 2 years with wages 105$ per MONTH. 50$ I paid for bills and 50 $ for food. 5$ I had for music etc. Now it is 300-400$ per month at my place and bills almost half. When I contacted WL's school they asked me to pay 3500$ for 5 days seminar. May be you should not judge people your way? I must work all year with no food and live with parents in order to pay this gentlman for his meditation technique which I can get in a book. If he teaches me how no to eat... then may be... But thanks for your honest opinion about me. I need to get another job but there are other options. If I get job for 1000 $ then I will have to work 12-15 hours. When to practice sitting then?

Edited November 23, 2013 by Antares

[Taomeow]

That' not Wang Liping's version of meditation as far as I understood. Is there anything in common in both of these methods?

 

I am not familiar with this, but from its description "Nine Palaces Solar Qigong" seems to me as a system its author invented. "Nine Palaces" are not "openings in the body" (though there's correspondences in the body), "working with solar energy" is not a taoist practice at all (the taoist counterpart would be working with the energy of the sun, the moon and the stars), the rest is not specific enough to evaluate. No, this is not Longmen Pai, but you have to keep in mind that Wang Liping was teaching publicly since the 1980s and some of his more ambitious, put it this way, students decided to launch their own operations, incorporating what they learned into whatever they did with it to make up their own "authentic" systems. I know two such stories at least, both potentially very damaging to the real Longmen Pai, but I'm sure I don't know them all. About Baolin Wu I know too little to tell if there's any Longmen Pai there and if there is, how much of it.

[Taomeow]

Exuse me, after university I was to work for government organisation for 2 years with wages 105$ per MONTH. 50$ I paid for bills and 50 $ for food. 5$ I had for music etc. Now it is 300$ per month and bills almost half. When I contacted WL's school they asked me to pay 3500$ for 5 days seminar. May be you should not judge people your way? I must work all year with no food to pay this gentlmen for his meditation technique which I can get in a book. If he teaches me how no to eat... then may be...

 

Maybe wait?.. I had to wait till my kids grow up before spending even a penny on myself and taking a paid lesson in anything at all for the first time in my life.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Taomeow

[Brian]

Maybe wait?.. I had to wait till my kids grow up before spending even a penny on myself and taking a paid lesson in anything at all for the first time in my life.

 

I also waited -- I was in my 40s before I felt comfortable travelling and spending money on myself this way.

[Antares]

Maybe wait?.. I had to wait till my kids grow up before spending even a penny on myself and taking a paid lesson in anything at all for the first time in my life.

 

But you paid 3500$ for seminar? It' your choice and I do not judge you. There are another options at my place. There are some taoist people near by who teach authentic stuff and ask money only for the rent and for class what one can pay. This is honest and not 3000 + $$$ for med.

 

Another issue - can you find Wang Lipings method in authentic text? Could you give me link to the text please?

[Taomeow]

I also waited -- I was in my 40s before I felt comfortable travelling and spending money on myself this way.

 

And Liu I-Ming was retired and in his late 60s when he first had his chance to sit down and do a taoist practice.

 

And Sun Bu-er was 57 when she had her first chance to go study with a taoist master.

 

And it was very common throughout history. Poets wrote about pining for "blue robes with scarlet clouds," the taoist attire, but few could pursue this until they dedicated sometimes a whole lifetime to getting to a place whence to take the first step. Taoism is not a convenience product...