Law of Attraction and Enlightenment

[Cameron]

This is a pretty big question for me. At heart my take is that law of attraction has alot of positive things but where it falls apart in respect to awakening or enlightenment is the center of LOA..you..is seen through. If "you" are no longer the main attraction of your life LOA isn't so interesting.

 

By the same token, we see many people in the "dream state" have great success in wordly matters, making money, attracting what they want.

 

I was actually thinking of starting this thread yesterday saying how awakening is bs and LOA is where it is at to become "successful". But at this moment I have doubts about that.

 

Adyashanti said something that I think sums it up well. Someone asked him about law of attraction, attracting the business, the woman that he wanted to him and how that related to awakening. Adya said with LOA you try to get the girl that you want. When your awake, if the girl that you want wants to be with someone else your so happy for her that she got what she wanted.

 

Thoughts?

[fatherpaul]

This is a pretty big question for me. At heart my take is that law of attraction has alot of positive things but where it falls apart in respect to awakening or enlightenment is the center of LOA..you..is seen through. If "you" are no longer the main attraction of your life LOA isn't so interesting.

 

By the same token, we see many people in the "dream state" have great success in wordly matters, making money, attracting what they want.

 

I was actually thinking of starting this thread yesterday saying how awakening is bs and LOA is where it is at to become "successful". But at this moment I have doubts about that.

 

Adyashanti said something that I think sums it up well. Someone asked him about law of attraction, attracting the business, the woman that he wanted to him and how that related to awakening. Adya said with LOA you try to get the girl that you want. When your awake, if the girl that you want wants to be with someone else your so happy for her that she got what she wanted.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

if one is attracted to everything

and everything is attracted to the one.....?????

[Cameron]

Ok..my last 2 cents on this. If your awake/enlightened etc you probably are in a space/awareness where it's not a priority to manifest/achieve what 'you want'.

 

For all of us that aren't there yet, getting what you want and manifesting what you want is a big deal..in a fun way.

 

I could easily be wrong on this and maybe LOA and awakening will meet down the road and just be seen as nothing special, how the universe operates, 'what is'.

 

Well, have fun in either case!

[fatherpaul]

Ok..my last 2 cents on this. If your awake/enlightened etc you probably are in a space/awareness where it's not a priority to manifest/achieve what 'you want'.

 

For all of us that aren't there yet, getting what you want and manifesting what you want is a big deal..in a fun way.

 

I could easily be wrong on this and maybe LOA and awakening will meet down the road and just be seen as nothing special, how the universe operates, 'what is'.

 

Well, have fun in either case!

 

I doubt the validity of LOA

you want something you attract it

you hate something you repulse it

this is the work of desire/thinking

all desire stems from seperation

you seem to be saying, I would rather play in a dream

than wake up, thats ok too.

 

peace

[Cameron]

I doubt the validity of LOA

you want something you attract it

you hate something you repulse it

this is the work of desire/thinking

all desire stems from seperation

you seem to be saying, I would rather play in a dream

than wake up, thats ok too.

 

peace

 

 

No, I am not saying that I would rather play in the dream than wake up. Ime saying it might be useful to have fun playing in the dream if you haven't woken up yet. There is a difference!

 

So no one else wants to say anything about this besides our resident hardcore advietist?

[Yoda]

Adya said with LOA you try to get the girl that you want. When your awake, if the girl that you want wants to be with someone else your so happy for her that she got what she wanted.

 

That's a great quote... imo, with spiritual evolution LOA doesn't change, and desire doesn't disapear but rather you start becoming more interested in making others happy.

[sunshine]

Adya said with LOA you try to get the girl that you want. When your awake, if the girl that you want wants to be with someone else your so happy for her that she got what she wanted.

 

While I have not yet my mind up about LOA actually working or not I do not see trouble in solving above established polarity that to me is none. Where is the "factual border" in attracting a women by LOA (if it works) who is happy with you while still being able to be happy for her with another if LOA does not work out the way you wish?

 

 

Harry

[Cameron]

While I have not yet my mind up about LOA actually working or not I do not see trouble in solving above established polarity that to me is none. Where is the "factual border" in attracting a women by LOA (if it works) who is happy with you while still being able to be happy for her with another if LOA does not work out the way you wish?

 

 

Harry

 

Not sure exactly what you meant there LOA is about attracting what "you" want to yourself. Whether that means a realationship, the perfect job, financial freedom, sucess etc etc.

 

I think it has a positive message. I guess my only "issue" is I have been studying Adveita like stuff and LOA together and you couldn't get two more different messages.

 

In a nutshell Adveita says you don't really exist. When people would ask Ramana Maharshi a question he would sometimes respond "WHO is asking the question?" It says the imaginary false ego is just basically a conception in mind..not the truth.

 

LOA basically supposes you do exist. I mean they have some talk about everything being energy and "you are an energy field within an energy field" but it's based on the belief of a seperate "I" that wants stuff.

 

One of the big messages in Advieta is you really have little to no control. Things happen the way they happen. LOA says you have damn near complete control. YOU decide what YOU want. You sit down..use your imagination and basically add positive feeling and emotion to attract to you the things you feel will bring happiness to you..like a magnet.

 

So yeah, maybe there is no real issue. It just seems the fundamental difference in what Adveita and other spiritual teachers are saying and what LOA is saying is different. I don't really have a problem with it.

[fatherpaul]

No, I am not saying that I would rather play in the dream than wake up. Ime saying it might be useful to have fun playing in the dream if you haven't woken up yet. There is a difference!

 

So no one else wants to say anything about this besides our resident hardcore advietist?

advietist?

dreaming may wake you up,

so will play in your dream until you wake up?

just wake up and be done with it.

[Cameron]

advietist?

dreaming may wake you up,

so will play in your dream until you wake up?

just wake up and be done with it.

 

 

Ok! How is your health these days?

[Yoda]

I don't really think there's any discrepancy... the adveita gang is simply looking at the same situation with greater precision. It's very much like a newtonian physicist vs a quantum physicist... for general everyday purposes, Newtonian gets the job done but it carries with it very misleading assumptions that have to be dropped in order to go farther with it *or* to get more accurate results even within the Newtonian realm.

 

LOA says to be detached from the outcome but to do that you really have to be detached from the notion of self who needs xyz to begin with, so LOA steers you inevitably into adveita territory.

[Cameron]

I don't really think there's any discrepancy... the adveita gang is simply looking at the same situation with greater precision. It's very much like a newtonian physicist vs a quantum physicist... for general everyday purposes, Newtonian gets the job done but it carries with it very misleading assumptions that have to be dropped in order to go farther with it *or* to get more accurate results even within the Newtonian realm.

 

LOA says to be detached from the outcome but to do that you really have to be detached from the notion of self who needs xyz to begin with, so LOA steers you inevitably into adveita territory.

 

 

Wow..Yoda is so wise. So basically..if you can help me sum this up for future generations of seekers..Adveita..aka AWAKENING..is where it is at. But if you want to hold on to the idea of a seperate self then LOA is where it is at..so you can be successful in the dream state(of seperation where seperate self needs xyz to feel complete).

 

Correct?

[forestofsouls]

Wow..Yoda is so wise. So basically..if you can help me sum this up for future generations of seekers..Adveita..aka AWAKENING..is where it is at. But if you want to hold on to the idea of a seperate self then LOA is where it is at..so you can be successful in the dream state(of seperation where seperate self needs xyz to feel complete).

 

Correct?

 

I think that he's saying detachment is the key, no matter which route you go down. If you want LOA to work, you need to be detached from the outcome, but if that is so, then why LOA in the first place?

 

Personally, I think that wanting creates an inner state where the growth of insight and wisdom isn't possible, much like trying to grow an apple tree in the sand. As the wise one said, you reap what you sow-- desire breeds desire.

[sunshine]

Cameron,

 

some questions need not be asked at all or at least not in the way they are... (pun intended)...

 

Yes. LOA is about what YOU want... and while it is, LOA has to work according to principles incorporating that others want too. This way if two guys want the same girl one basically reaches a similar state as it was before. One having an advantage over the other, whichever way. Then if you manage to still feel happy for the girl and the other guy, then there is no contradiction to LOA, is there? And if there is no other guy and you are the only one wanting that girl and LOA works in a way that girl wants you too then... that again is no contradiction to being awakened or whatever...

 

all this "WHO is asking the question" to me is nothing more than trying to get one out of the typical ego state. Even if you are not you still are, aren't you? Even if you as the ego might be just a tiny little thought of a big consciouness then you still are that tiny little thought... and if you are a drop of a big conscious ocean you still are, aren't you? You will not disappear just because you are interconnected? And even if one were to say you as the drop are not THEN one would have to say that at least the ocean is. Thereby the drop itself is as well again.

 

These discussions remind me of one of the funniest intellectual jokes ever... I might have already shared it though:

 

Descartes was once sitting in a bar, thinking by himself: I think, therefore I am!

The bartender that moments aks: You gonna have another ale???

Descates: I don't think...

 

and BANG: he disappeared....

 

 

Harry

[Cameron]

Ok..nice replies..to sum up for myself..real awakening "overrides" any desire you might have. So for the most part, awakened people don't sit around thinking "I want,I want,I want" etc.

 

There is nothing wrong with that..what "The Secret" talks about..but basically all the desires or manifestation of desires in the world don't compare to authentic awakening(my guess).

 

So basically..regardless of whatever else I do in my life..awakening will remain the priority.

 

Glad we had this thread/chat!

 

Cam

[fatherpaul]

Ok! How is your health these days?

very shaky, thanks for asking.

peace

paul

[cheya]

Ok..nice replies..to sum up for myself..real awakening "overrides" any desire you might have. So for the most part, awakened people don't sit around thinking "I want,I want,I want" etc.

 

There is nothing wrong with that..what "The Secret" talks about..but basically all the desires or manifestation of desires in the world don't compare to authentic awakening(my guess).

 

Cam

 

 

To me, it's not that real awakening overrides desiring. It's more that the perceptual mode of desiring blocks the perceptual mode that leads to awakening.

 

The Law of Attraction keeps you focused on what you want to attract, your desires.

The Tao Te Ching, (Chapter 1, various translations) says

 

Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.

Ever desiring, one sees manifestations.

--------Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English, 1972

 

So the unwanting soul

sees what's hidden,

and the ever-wanting soul

sees only what it wants.

--------Ursula LeGuin (1998)

 

Send your desires away and you will see the mystery

Be filled with desire and you will see only the manifestation

--------Talbert McCarroll

 

 

To me the desire/desireless, manifestation/mystery conundrum seems a bit like looking at those pictures of figure/ground reversals: you can either see a vase, or the profile of a woman. You can't hold both interpretations in your perception at the same time. If we can see EITHER the manifestation OR the mystery, but not both, it sounds like we won't get very far in perceiving the mystery if we allow ourselves to be

seduced by our desires, especially, perhaps, the successful attainment of those desires promised by The Secret.

 

Looked at this way, focusing on The Law of Attraction looks like a massive U-turn on the path of realization.

 

Cheya

[thaddeus]

Ok..nice replies..to sum up for myself..real awakening "overrides" any desire you might have. So for the most part, awakened people don't sit around thinking "I want,I want,I want" etc.

 

There is nothing wrong with that..what "The Secret" talks about..but basically all the desires or manifestation of desires in the world don't compare to authentic awakening(my guess).

 

So basically..regardless of whatever else I do in my life..awakening will remain the priority.

 

Glad we had this thread/chat!

 

Cam

This is a good thread. Here are more thoughts. A calf wants to suckle. But at the same time, the cow, which is full of milk wants the calf to nurse. In fact, there is a saying to the effect, 'more than the calf wants to suckle the cow wants him to nurse'. When we manifest with intention, I believe we are basically asking the universe, god, for something. When the ego gets involved, the ego wants what it wants on it's own timescale. The ego gets worried that it might not manifest or the ego feels it needs to 'do' something to make it happen. Incidentally, I believe this is how sin and evil manifests into the world--when the ego feels the need to act. If we just let god or the universe bring it to us we would not 'sin' or cause anyone else harm. It comes when we don't expect it and it comes in forms we may not expect. I believe this is true detachment, and true egoless. When we want to control and direct our lives the way we want it (basically ego in it's ugliest) we are trapped in the dream.

The greatest thing we can do is not only attract for ourselves, but attract for other people to be happy. When I take care of my neighbor and not just myself, then we are really getting somewhere..

T

[Yoda]

but if that is so, then why LOA in the first place?

 

That's the whole thing with Adveita studs and studdesses... there's no need for LOA, meditation, chikung, kundalini, mantras etc if you got the wisdom.

 

But for the rest of us, these intermediate practices can be steps in the right direction. They can also be distractions too. It really depends on our desire/bhakti/bodhicitta. My guess is that most of the time these steps are a good idea to participate in.

 

I know many fine minds would disagree, but I believe that enlightenment is a manifestation just like any other that needs (for most people) to be approached gradually, step by step, developing both greater wisdom as well as a more refined nervous system to contain that wisdom.

[gendao]

when the ego feels the need to act. If we just let god or the universe bring it to us we would not 'sin' or cause anyone else harm.

But as you reawaken the ego-universe bond...the distinction between "you" and the universe disappears...

 

And you transcend this whole paradigm of what "you" want vs what the universe wants.

 

The way I see it, LOA is like lucid-dreaming. It is taking more conscious control of your life as you would your dreams. And since all is illusory-like in nature anyways...what does it matter?

[Pero]

Main goal should always be enlightenment. However, if you have problems in your life, those are obstacles on the path. Using different means, like LOA, to remove those obstacles, is not contradictory.

 

 

That's the whole thing with Adveita studs and studdesses... there's no need for LOA, meditation, chikung, kundalini, mantras etc if you got the wisdom.

 

That could be a pretty big if.

[fatherpaul]

Main goal should always be enlightenment. However, if you have problems in your life, those are obstacles on the path. Using different means, like LOA, to remove those obstacles, is not contradictory.

That could be a pretty big if.

 

 

 

 

IF

 

 

do away with goals

[Cameron]

Father P is Adveita all the way...even if he chooses not to use that label.

 

Ime listening to the last Adyashanti intensive and he has a funny expresison for the ego. He says the ego is like the matador and enlightenment is like when the bull stops chasing the cape. What happens to the macho, imposing matador character when the bull stops chasing his cape? The matador(ego) stands there looking like a silly guy in tight pants holding a blanket.

 

How about if the bull keeps chasing the matador? He gets skewered by the sword.

[seadog]

when we see all life forms as an extension of ourself.when the realisation of oness is wonderously apparrent,there is no need for laws especially laws of attraction.Until we accept this, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

[Pero]

IF

do away with goals

 

Hehe..

Of course. But that isn`t easy to understand. And also, that kind of thinking can lead to erroneous thinking that there is nothing to do...

 

 

Until we accept this, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

 

Indeed. Getting what you "want" isn`t neccessarily a good thing. I did some practices because I wanted something... I got it... It was temporary enjoyment, then it brought me more suffering than if I wouldn`t get it. I don`t plan on repeating my mistake. You have to use everything wisely. But what does that mean? I certainly didn`t know then, and I`m still not completely sure. There`s a difference between needing something and wanting something. Wanting could also be divided into something you want for some greater purpose and something more like ego wanting. It`s hard to tell the difference sometimes...