Salvation - Guaranteed or Not ?

[chegg]

You people have got me thinking about 'Salvation' lately. What does it mean to be 'saved' ?. I hear alot of 'Christian' people tell me Jesus saves but they give no explanation other than needing 'faith'. I know of (Chrisitan) masters that can assist people towards salvation after they have passed on. I know of the buddhist deal with repect to ending the cyle of death/rebirth - i.e. I believe its getting to at least the 4th plane in waking life and making your way from there.

 

So, to me, is seems that merely becoming aware of where to go after death enables you to get there after death.

 

But, if you cant become aware of those realms that exisit in the after life, Jesus/Christ is a good fallback plan for helping you to get there.

 

Now, I notice from experience, that its almost impossible to move from lower planes to higher planes on your own. Just by 'willing' ascension through your own effort on the other side seems impossible (but maybe not improbable).

 

The question then arises, can you ever know for sure that you are guaranteed to reach heaven or break the cycle of death/rebirth while in waking life ?

 

Is it just a matter becoming aware of where to go or does one require assistance of some sort ie., help from the other side or help from a conscious master on this side ?

 

 

Incidentally, I recall a youtube video of one guy who was taken to a plane of existance 'a hell' as he describes it and could not, by any effort of his own, get himself out of it. He was fully conscious and the experience was very real. This one was a Christian based story by the way.

Edited November 17, 2013 by chegg

[RongzomFan]

You people have got me thinking about 'Salvation' lately. What does it mean to be 'saved' ?. I hear alot of 'Christian' people tell me Jesus saves but they give no explanation other than needing 'faith'.

 

As a former evangelical saved Christian, I can tell you its quite easy.

 

You just verbally say outloud something like "I accept Jesus as my savior. I accept his payment on the cross. Send me the Holy Spirit."

 

If you say something like that, you are "saved."

 

 

Incidentally, I recall a youtube video of one guy who was taken to a plane of existance 'a hell' as he describes it and could not, by any effort of his own, get himself out of it. He was fully conscious and the experience was very real. This one was a Christian based story by the way.

 

These are just bardo experiences.

[deci belle]

chegg said…

So, to me, is seems that merely becoming aware of where to go after death enables you to get there after death.

 

Merely becoming aware.

 

This is where I would begin.

 

Awareness itself is it. Awareness, the nature of perception to be exact, is uncreated. It is empty and has no identity. You can avail yourself of this inherent natural capacity of being by recognizing the nature of your own mind right now.

 

Becoming aware of the nature of essential awareness is a process of lessening the ingrained habits that stultify unity. Unity is what awareness is in terms of living potential energy. Selflessness is not a moral imperative as it is not a person. Having no self, it does not reflect self or other. This is what make the objectivity of realized people valuable.

 

The conditioned psychological apparatus comprising your ideas of intellectual, sexual and emotional self-identities and the sensual organs are part of a matrix that has become ego-hood. The apparatus has buried the natural awareness of enlightening being independent of conditioned cycles of creation in its self-absorbed processes that have over-arched the ego-function's original premise. Ego is absolutely valid, but it has usurped the mastery of awakened self-nature.

 

Unfortunately, the true wisdom or mystical teachings of gnostic christianity were brutalized almost beyond recognition over 1600 years ago. The traditions we have to work back to re-discover our true living aware nature are not so foreign though.

 

Christ said it as well as any teacher of authentic transcendent wisdom and he was not the only one to have ascended into heaven in broad daylight.

 

Begin studying the authentic teachings that resonate with you. Just avoid the traps of recreational philosophy, attachment to meditation states and "wellness lifestyles". There is real knowledge left behind. We are all responsible for clarifying our own bright virtue.

 

Realize it is not in words. It cannot be explained. It is not thinking. Awareness itself is truly miraculous. It's your own mind.

 

 

 

 

ed note: add to 4th paragraph and "attachment to meditation states" to penultimate paragraph

Edited November 17, 2013 by deci belle

[chegg]

As a former evangelical saved Christian, I can tell you its quite easy.

 

You just verbally say outloud something like "I accept Jesus as my savior. I accept his payment on the cross. Send me the Holy Spirit."

 

If you say something like that, you are "saved."

 

 

 

These are just bardo experiences.

 

Thanks Rongzom,

 

I looked up 'bardo' and found it as being an 'intermediate state'.

 

 

Christ said it as well as any teacher of authentic transcendent wisdom and he was not the only one to have ascended into heaven in broad daylight.

 

Begin studying the authentic teachings that resonate with you. Just avoid the traps of recreational philosophy and "wellness lifestyles". There is real knowledge left behind. We are all responsible for clarifying our own bright virtue.

 

Realize it is not in words. It cannot be explained. It is not thinking. Awareness itself is truly miraculous. It's your own mind.

 

 

Thanks deci belle,

 

Christ also said that "no one gets to the father except through me"

 

Is he simply implying "no one gets to the father except through your real-self awareness" ?

 

 

 

You guys get 3 and a half blessings on the karmic-scale-of-good-posts ! :wub: + /2

Edited November 17, 2013 by chegg

[9th]

here is another perspective:

 

The talk began by one of those present asking:

"Can it be said that man possesses immortality?"

"Immortality is one of the qualities we ascribe to people without having a sufficient understanding of their meaning," said G. "Other qualities of this kind are 'individuality,' in the sense of an inner unity, a 'permanent and unchangeable I,' 'consciousness,' and 'will.' All these qualities can belong to man" (he emphasized the word "can"), "but this certainly does not mean that they do belong to him or belong to each and every one.

"In order to understand what man is at the present time, that is, at the present level of development, it is necessary to imagine to a certain extent what he can be, that is, what he can attain. Only by understanding the correct sequence of development possible will people cease to ascribe to themselves what, at present, they do not possess, and what, perhaps, they can only acquire after great effort and great labor.

"According to an ancient teaching, traces of which may be found in many systems, old and new, a man who has attained the full development possible for man, a man in the full sense of the word, consists of four bodies. These four bodies are composed of substances which gradually become finer and finer, mutually interpenetrate one another, and form four independent organisms,standing in a definite relationship to one another but capable of independent action.

"These four bodies are defined in different teachings in various ways."

"The first is the physical body, in Christian terminology the 'carnal' body; the second, in Christian terminology, is the 'natural' body; the third is the 'spiritual' body; and the fourth, in the terminology of esoteric Christianity, is the 'divine' body. In theosophical terminology the first is the 'physical' body, the second is the 'astral,' the third is the 'mental,' and the fourth the 'causal' (or the body which bears the causes of its actions within itself, is independent of external causes, and is the body of will).

"In the terminology of certain Eastern teachings the first body is the 'carriage' (body), the second body is the 'horse' (feelings, desires), the third the 'driver' (mind), and the fourth the 'master' (I, consciousness, will).

"The 'astral body' is not an indispensable implement for man. It is a great luxury which only a few can afford. A man can live quite well without an 'astral body.' His physical body possesses all the functions necessary for life. A man without an 'astral body' may even produce the impression of being a very intellectual or even spiritual man, and may deceive not only others but also himself.

"This applies still more, of course, to the 'mental body' and the fourth body. Ordinary man does not possess these bodies or their corresponding functions. But he often thinks, and makes others think, that he does. The reasons for this are, first, the fact that the physical body works with the same substances of which the higher bodies are composed, only these substances are not crystallized in him, do not belong to him; and secondly, it has all the functions analogous to those of the higher bodies, though of course they differ from them considerably. The chief difference between the functions of a man possessing the physical body only and the functions of the four bodies, is that, in the first case, the functions of the physical body govern all the other functions, in other words, everything is governed by the body which, in its turn, is governed by external influences. In the second case, the command or control emanates from the higher body.

 

[chegg]

here is another perspective:

 

Thankyou Mr 9th. That quote is very helpful.

 

 

 

many blessings on the karmic-scale-of-good-posts :wub:

Edited November 17, 2013 by chegg

[C T]

 

 

Part 1 of 7.

Edited November 17, 2013 by C T

[dawei]

You people have got me thinking about 'Salvation' lately. What does it mean to be 'saved' ?. I hear alot of 'Christian' people tell me Jesus saves but they give no explanation other than needing 'faith'.

 

Having been in very conservative christian circles for too many years, I can tell you it is a pot shot based on which doctrinal allegiance your church holds.

 

Some history:

- The catholic church puts man in a perpetual need of redemption through confession and works.

- St. Augustine said that it was about God's predestination as preparation and grace as a donation.

- Thomas Aquinas tried to balance free will and predestination

- Luther said it was by grace not works (words of Paul), through faith.

- Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. doctrines amount to 'once saved always saved'... but it's more God's decision as an act of predestination.

- The Arminian's countered with complete free will and you can lose salvation

- Some other groups, but including some of the above, believed in baptismal regeneration; You must be literally baptized to be saved.

 

The main difference is usually told as predestination vs free will; and sometimes as works vs grace.

 

The subtle and deeper meaning is whether regeneration (salvation) occurs prior to man's display of faith or as a result of it...

[三江源]

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Edited July 19, 2014 by cat

[三江源]

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Edited July 19, 2014 by cat

[deci belle]

haha!!❤ thank you, chegg!

 

 

 

Christ also said that "no one gets to the father except through me"

 

Is he simply implying "no one gets to the father except through your real-self awareness" ?

 

 

Buddhists have been saying since before Christ that it is only in the human state that people are able to realize their own nature. Christ was human. Human being is a cross-roads of potential. Your real-self awareness' source is the father. When you see the father the father is you. This is how we know our living aware potential has never been created. The father is selfless self-aware nonoriginated unborn nonbeing. Our own awareness is this capacity. This is getting to the father through availing oneself of the opportunity of being created in the human state. Self-refinement is clarifying this capacity.

 

As it is, your real-self awareness is your own light functioning right now. In taoist terms, bright virtue is real human being fully expressing the immaterial Tao inasmuch as we cannot know Tao, but its functional manifestation is Virtue; open sincere intent.

 

When our function is this open sincere intent, we do not have to deal with the world in terms of the personality~ or any person, for that matter; adapting to situations selflessly in terms of the potential inherent in its own evolutionary cycle, we do not rely on our individual power to adapt to everyday ordinary situations. This is the subtlety of the spiritual vehicle buddhists call the Great Vehicle or the Middle Way.

 

In leu of mastering the natural reality described by 9th above, simply in recognizing your own awareness' lack of bias or inclination and developing sincere open intent void of habitual self-reflective opportunism, what is naturally operational in terms of enlightening being per 9th's comment will manifest without any effort or anticipation on your part.

 

It is when these "powers" manifest that one should seek teachers. Wisdom itself is not difficult. The difficulty is in not-using it.

 

 

 

 

ed note: add thank you note to chegg

Edited November 17, 2013 by deci belle

[Aetherous]

When speaking about salvation in Christian religion, I think it's best to go to the source material and the teachings of the one who is supposedly doing the saving, rather than rely on what any one church or modern teacher says.

This verse is very clear...

 

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ - Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23 NIV

 

There are Christian groups that believe good people will "go to hell" due to not having "accepted Jesus into their heart", or due to not having a water baptism, or some other requirement like giving generous donations...and that very imperfect people will "go to heaven" due to having "accepted Jesus into their heart". These groups tend to not even read the Bible itself, but simply attend church once a week and believe that they understand the religion.

Accepting Jesus into your heart, or having faith, is one thing but...

"Faith without works is dead." - James

 

So someone who becomes a Christian, but then later does the wrong thing, lets say murdering people as an extreme example...it's almost as if the faith wasn't there in the first place. Because if you believed in Jesus in your heart, you'd also believe what he was about, not simply his name...and one of the things he taught of course is not to murder. So it's not simply saying outloud, "I accept Jesus as my personal savior" or something...those are just words. You have to study the Bible, and you have to follow through and live it...if you are a Christian.

Maybe the "savior" title has to do with Jesus teaching people how to save themselves. Not that I really know...the message of his blood saving all sinners who accept his name could be correct in the afterlife. But overall, for the living, the message here is:

"Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you." - James 1:21 NIV

Edited November 17, 2013 by turtle shell

[9th]

There has been quite a bit of additional ideas and theory layered on Christianity over the centuries. Much can still be found in the older texts.

 

113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

 

"It will not come by watching and waiting for it. It will not be found by saying, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people do not see it."

 

- gospel of thomas

 

 

 

³⁴ Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

³⁵ For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

³⁶ And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

³⁷ He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

³⁸ And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

³⁹ He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

- gospel of matthew ch10

 

¹⁹ And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

²⁰ Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

²¹ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

²² Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

²³ But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

²⁴ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

²⁵ For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

²⁶ For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

²⁷ For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

- gospel of matthew ch16

 

 

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things,like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

 

- gospel of peter ch1

 

[9th]

and then returning to G:

 

 

"If instead of religion in general we take Christianity, then again there exists a Christianity number one, that is to say, paganism in the guise of Christianity. Christianity number two is an emotional religion, sometimes very pure but without force, sometimes full of bloodshed and horror leading to the Inquisition, to religious wars. Christianity number three, instances of which are afforded by various forms of Protestantism, is based upon dialectic, argument, theories, and so forth. Then there is Christianity number four, of which men number one, number two, and number three have no conception whatever.

"In actual fact Christianity number one, number two, and number three is simply external imitation. Only man number four strives to be a Christian and only man number five can actually be a Christian. For to be a Christian means to have the being of a Christian, that is, to live in accordance with Christ's precepts.

"Man number one, number two, and number three cannot live in accordance with Christ's precepts because with them everything 'happens.' Today it is one thing and tomorrow it is quite another thing. Today they are ready to give away their last shirt and tomorrow to tear a man to pieces because he refuses to give up his shirt to them. They are swayed by every chance event. They are not masters of themselves and therefore they cannot decide to be Christians and really be Christians.

...

"Another question was how to become a Christian.

"First of all it is necessary to understand that a Christian is not a man who calls himself a Christian or whom others call a Christian. A Christian is one who lives in accordance with Christ's precepts. Such as we are we cannot be Christians. In order to be Christians we must be able 'to do.' We cannot do; with us everything 'happens.' Christ says: 'Love your enemies,' but how can we love our enemies when we cannot even love our friends? Sometimes 'it loves' and sometimes 'it does not love.'

Such as we are we cannot even really desire to be Christians because, again, sometimes 'it desires' and sometimes 'it does not desire.' And one and the same thing cannot be desired for long, because suddenly, instead of desiring to be a Christian, a man remembers a very good but very expensive carpet that he has seen in a shop. And instead of wishing to be a Christian he begins to think how he can manage to buy this carpet, forgetting all about Christianity. Or if somebody else does not believe what a wonderful Christian he is, he will be ready to eat him alive or to roast him on hot coals.

In order to be a good Christian one must be. To be means to be master of oneself. If a man is not his own master he has nothing and can have nothing. And he cannot be a Christian. He is simply a machine, an automaton. A machine cannot be a Christian. Think for yourselves, is it possible for a motorcar or a typewriter or a gramophone to be Christian? They are simply things which are controlled by chance. They are not responsible. They are machines. To be a Christian means to be responsible. Responsibility comes later when a man even partially ceases to be a machine, and begins in fact, and not only in words, to desire to be a Christian."

"What is the relation of the teaching you are expounding to Christianity as we know it?" asked somebody present.

"I do not know what you know about Christianity," answered G., emphasizing this word. "It would be necessary to talk a great deal and to talk for a long time in order to make clear what you understand by this term. But for the benefit of those who know already, I will say that, if you like, this is esoteric Christianity. We will talk in due course about the meaning of these words. At present we will continue to discuss our questions.

 

[RongzomFan]

So it's not simply saying outloud, "I accept Jesus as my personal savior" or something...those are just words.

 

According to most, it really is about saying those words.

[RongzomFan]

The theory is that the default setting is Hell, because of Original Sin.

[RongzomFan]

All the rainbow body masters tell us to go with Om Amitabha Hrih for salvation.

 

Sukhavati is a "real" place.

Edited November 17, 2013 by RongzomFan

[Tibetan_Ice]

According to most, it really is about saying those words.

Alwaysoff,

Are you trolling the Christian threads again?

 

Perhaps you should put your cards on the table and let everyone know your hidden agenda. You aim to discredit and destroy. You have a hidden agenda.

 

Why else would you pretend to know how to become saved?

Don't you recall when you wrote this?

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32130-jesus-a-fictional-character/?p=486150

 

When I was a saved Christian, I said outloud every possible permutation of the salvation prayer, and got nothing.

 

Nada. Zip.

 

Even tried the name Yeshua instead of Jesus, asked for the Holy Spirit etc.

 

So by your criteria, i.e. direct personal experience, Jesus is a fiction.

 

 

Explain that.

 

 

 

[RongzomFan]

Why else would you pretend to know how to become saved?

 

I'm a former saved Christian.

 

When Christians say "I'm saved", that means they verbally accepted Jesus as their savior.

 

If you don't understand basics, go to any local protestant church around the corner.

Edited November 18, 2013 by RongzomFan

[h.uriahr]

It has nothing to do with the mouth and throat. It is an actual Acceptance of Christ. Faith isn't a verbal thing. It's a Mighty Oak that roots deep into your Being. Confession only works if field by Faith aka Belief. With that actual Revelation comes a New Fire. This Fire fuels you. The old you has passed on while the New You wants to go out and help people, feed the homeless, donate to charity, stop cussing, etc. This is where the line between faux and Real separates and defines who the True Believers are. I'm sorry but this who simply think saying it IS IT, you didn't get it. Be you Transformed by the Renewing of Your Mind.

[h.uriahr]

Please excuse my grammar errors. I'm smartphone posting.

[chegg]

I'm a former saved Christian.

 

When Christians say "I'm saved", that means they verbally accepted Jesus as their savior.

 

If you don't understand basics, go to any local protestant church around the corner.

 

 

I've been trying to work out what the difference is between Jesus and the other Spiritual Masters that have blessed us with their teachings. Please add/correct comments as you see fit.

 

According to written accounts, Jesus,

 

- was offered directly by his father to us as a direct embodiment of the word of god.

- did not need to meditate to clean out the fetters.

- was not perfected over cycles of incarnations, he was perfect on the first incarnation.

- he died and came back to life.

- the crucifixion/resurrection was a symbolic event of something much deeper in the consciousness of humanity.

- he said "I am" not "I was" or "I will be" meaning he has always been in existence and just happened to pop up at the right time -- sort of like "I am the alpha and the omega" ?.

 

 

 

can anyone think of anymore ?

Edited November 18, 2013 by chegg

[RongzomFan]

I've been trying to work out what the difference is between Jesus and the other Spiritual Masters that have blessed us with their teachings. Please add/correct comments as you see fit.

 

According to written accounts, Jesus,

 

- was offered directly by his father to us as a direct embodiment of the word of god.

- did not need to meditate to clean out the fetters.

- was not perfected over cycles of incarnations, he was perfect on the first incarnation.

- he died and came back to life.

- the crucifixion/resurrection was a symbolic event of something much deeper in the consciousness of humanity.

- he said "I am" not "I was" or "I will be" meaning he has always been in existence and just happened to pop up at the right time -- sort of like "I am the alpha and the omega" ?.

 

 

 

can anyone think of anymore ?

 

Jesus was a big faster

Edited November 18, 2013 by RongzomFan

[chegg]

Jesus was a big faster

 

He was a rather accomplished healer

[xor]

What is salvation?