Lataif Posted November 20, 2013 It seems to me that there are (at least) 2 different sets of terminology being used by posters here. Let's see if I can differentiate them. Michael Winn (for example) . . . characterizes "Qigong" as external movement practice (Tai Chi, Brocade, Animals, etc). Everything else is "NeiGong" internal practice (Smile, MCO, Fusion, etc). But Yang, Jwing-Ming (for example) . . . characterizes them ALL as "Qigong" . . . with two subsets: "WaiDan" being the external . . . and "NeiDan" being the internal. Have I got that right (?) Which is more common (?) And are there yet others (?) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) Timely topic I was pondering the somewhat schizophrenic state of these terms. There is not much agreement as to exactly how the associations are related. I think the problem was introduced with the relatively modern term 'Qigong' as prior to that there were many specific terms used to define specific methods; but even some of those methods are not agreed upon but it was probably clearer on some level. I think a similar example would be the introduction of the word Daoism; look at the debate as to what that means and encompasses . People are very quick to get beyond that word to describe the kind of Daoism they want to define to cover their interest. Despite the anachronism this creates, I tend to believe there were 'men of dao' before any word was literally defined. But how to deal with the Qigong/Neigong/Waigong/Neidan/Waidan/Alchemy pinwheel... Here is what I would favor in terms of pure simplicity... not that it is the accepted structure but one which I think would gain the most acceptance. We use the words in their simplest form first (kind of Occam Razor approach): Qigong - Energy Work. Highest parent which can include any energy work Waigong - Focuses on external methods Neigong - Focuses on internal methods Alchemy - Focus on transmutation and/or transcendence Neidan - Alchemy which focuses on internal methods Waidan - Alchemy which focuses on external methods The reason this would never gain acceptance is that it still cannot capture all the variations in history, schools, classifications, etc. Too often, a few of the above are involved not just one. And the same term will be used differently too. As one author stated:"Pregadio cautions that despite the dramatic similarities with the Inner Alchemical practices that follow we should not simply equate early Daoist meditational regimes and the self-conscious Inner Alchemy of the Song dynasty on. Indeed, the de-divinization of body gods is one of the defining elements of Inner Alchemy. As Pregadio puts it: “the notion of generating an inner embryo is not a neidan innovation,” while reminding that “The image of the embryo changes according to the understanding of neidan itself.” This is fair warning that it will be impossible to align historical unfolding of methods and align them with ease. As well, what we think is first or second may not be as we believe. For example: While most everyone says that Waigong (and Waidan) come before Neigong (and Neidan), I don't believe that... it seems illogical on some level to me... but that may be another post/thread point to make... Edit: Forgot to provide this link. http://thetaobums.com/topic/12458-the-difference-between-chi-kung-and-nei-kung/ One statement I agree with is: Quote As a general rule, a true Nei Kung expert with understand the methodologies of Chi Kung. However, the reverse is not true, - a Chi Kung expert will usually not be aware of all the Nei Kung methods. Edited November 20, 2013 by dawei 6 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lataif Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) On 11/20/2013 at 1:40 AM, dawei said: Qigong - Energy Work. Highest parent which can include any energy work Waigong - Focuses on external methods Neigong - Focuses on internal methods Alchemy - Focus on transmutation and/or transcendence Neidan - Alchemy which focuses on internal methods Waidan - Alchemy which focuses on external methods Right. I'm adopting this until further notice . . . and I'll just try to "locate" or "translate" what others are talking about within it. Edited November 20, 2013 by Lataif 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lataif Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) On 11/20/2013 at 1:40 AM, dawei said: While most everyone says that Waigong (and Waidan) come before Neigong (and Neidan), I don't believe that... it seems illogical on some level to me... but that may be another post/thread point to make... Yes, that's contentious/problematical. Reality apparently unfolds/descends: Unity==>. . . ==>Neidan==>Neigong==>Waidan==>Waigong. So from one perspective/method we find ourselves at Waigong . . . and we want to return/ascend to Unity by the reverse route: Waigong==>Waidan==>Neigong==>Neidan==> . . .Unity. But from another perspective/method . . . we want to emulate the original unfolding/descending. We break into the middle of the Chain of Being (by any of a number of methods) . . . and then re-create that unfolding within ourselves. Each probably has its strengths and weaknesses . . . for different individuals. Edited November 20, 2013 by Lataif 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) QiGong: 氣功 Breathing methodNeiGong: 內功 Enhance the function of the internal organsWaiDan: 外丹 External process using utensils in making elixirNeidan: 內丹 Internal process using the body by emulating the concept of the external process. Edited November 20, 2013 by ChiDragon 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) (deleted to consolidate posts) Edited November 25, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted November 20, 2013 On 11/20/2013 at 2:11 AM, Lataif said: Yes, that's contentious/problematical. Reality apparently unfolds/descends: Unity==>. . . ==>Neidan==>Neigong==>Waidan==>Waigong. So from one perspective/method we find ourselves at Waigong . . . and we want to return/ascend to Unity by the reverse route: Waigong==>Waidan==>Neigong==>Neidan==> . . .Unity. But from another perspective/method . . . we want to emulate the original unfolding/decending. We break into the middle of the Chain of Being (by any of a number of methods) . . . and then re-create that unfolding within ourselves. Each probably has its strengths and weaknesses . . . for different individuals. you have a great and simple explanation which I had not thought of... nice to see my intuition on this confirmed so easily. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted November 20, 2013 On 11/20/2013 at 2:03 AM, Lataif said: Right. I'm adopting this until further notice . . . and I'll just try to "locate" or "translate" what others are talking about within it. As I pondered this further, the problem in assigning and ascribing is that is it not 1 or 2 dimension... but one needs about 7+ dimensions of information to accurately capture any historical practice, teaching, school, etc... So I used a rubic's cube kind of idea (or OLAP database idea). If you envision the cube, you have six sides; thus one creates six lists which can then each be rotated to the viewing side and more than one item can be rotated to that side from the same list. But there is no limit to each list nor the amount of lists. Here is my rather lengthy examples... and they are just examples as the lists could be scrubbed and expanded beyond our wants and dreams... but the idea, in the end, is that one would select from each list (one to many) to define their practice or method. Lists: 1. Terms a. Qigong b. Waigong c. Neigong d. Waidan e. Neidan f. Alchemy g. Shen h. Yang Shen i. Yin Shen j. Yuan Shen k. Jing l. Yuan Jing m. Qi n. Yin Qi o. Yang Qi p. Yuan Qi q. Yangsheng r. Xing s. Ming 2. Branches a. Taoist b. Buddhist c. Confucian d. Tibetan e. Japanese f. Thai g. Malaysian h. Korean 3. Historical a. Shamanistic b. Religious c. Martial d. Medical e. Qigong f. Celestial Masters g. Taiqing h. Shangqing i. Lingbao j. Zhong-Lu k. Nanzong (Southern line) l. Beizong (Northern line) m. Zhongpai (Central branch) n. Xipai (Western branch) o. Dongpai (Eastern branch) p. Longmen (Dragon Gate) q. Quanzhen r. Wu-Liu s. Shaolin t. Wudong 4. Body-Meridians-Vessels-Chakras a. 3 dan tians b. 12 meridians c. 8 vessels d. 7 chakras e. Other energy locations 5. Energy Work a. Meditation i. Sitting with attention/mindful ii. Sitting with intention/focused/visualization iii. Sitting with mantras, trance or spiritual iv. Sitting with movement v. Sitting and forgetting vi. Transcendental vii. Walking viii. Gazing/Absorbing ix. Yoga x. Tibetan xi. Kundalini xii. Qigong b. Practices i. Five Animals ii. Eight Pieces of Brocade iii. Six Healing Sounds iv. Muscle Tendon Change v. Bone Marrow Cleansing vi. Soaring Crane vii. Wild Goose viii. White Crane ix. Dragon and Tiger x. Yang Taiji xi. Chen Taiji xii. Wu Taiji xiii. Ba Gua Zhang xiv. Pulling down the heavens xv. Embracing the moon xvi. MCO – fire xvii. MCO – water xviii. MCO – wind xix. MacroCO xx. Daoyin xxi. Tuna xxii. Jingzou xxiii. Zazen xxiv. Wuji stance xxv. Santi stance xxvi. Hunyuan stancexxvii. Horse stance 6. Transmutation-Trancendence-Awareness a. Restore Jing b. Transmute Jing to Qi c. Transmute Qi to Shen d. Transmute Shen to Void e. Transmit Shen to LDT f. Fusion of Yin and Yang g. Embryonic Breathing h. Inner Embryo & Gods i. Turning the Light j. Opening third eye k. Gradual l. Sudden m. Awakening n. Enlightenment 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Green Tiger Posted November 20, 2013 On 11/20/2013 at 3:06 AM, More_Pie_Guy said: Virtually all other systems on earth are yang only systems, even though they claim to work with yin. Yin cannot be felt directly even though some claim otherwise. It can only be felt indirectly as the effect it has on the yang energy inside your body. Your consciousness itself is 100% pure yang energy, and it is not until yin and yang are brought together that yin is even perceptible. Worldwide there are only a small handful of such schools remaining, and virtually everything you've ever heard of is a yang only system. I recently listened to an interview of Kostas and he said that you can't get yang without yin. One follows the other, always vying for supremacy. How, in your opinion, is yin energy cultivated separate from yang? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BaguaKicksAss Posted November 20, 2013 On 11/20/2013 at 6:32 PM, Green Tiger said: I recently listened to an interview of Kostas and he said that you can't get yang without yin. One follows the other, always vying for supremacy. How, in your opinion, is yin energy cultivated separate from yang? I'm curious as to why they would be vying for supremacy? Instead of just being, either merging like salt and water, or being separate like oil and water. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Green Tiger Posted November 20, 2013 On 11/20/2013 at 7:01 PM, BaguaKicksAss said: I'm curious as to why they would be vying for supremacy? Instead of just being, either merging like salt and water, or being separate like oil and water. I think he means that they are opposing forces more like oil and water, but wherever one is, the other is drawn. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lataif Posted November 20, 2013 On 11/20/2013 at 11:49 AM, dawei said: As I pondered this further, the problem in assigning and ascribing is that is it not 1 or 2 dimension... but one needs about 7+ dimensions of information to accurately capture any historical practice, teaching, school, etc... So I used a rubic's cube kind of idea (or OLAP database idea). If you envision the cube, you have six sides; thus one creates six lists which can then each be rotated to the viewing side and more than one item can be rotated to that side from the same list. But there is no limit to each list nor the amount of lists. I feel it's good to have a multi-dimensional map of some kind like this. I have something equivalent. One doesn't HAVE to have one . . . but to each his own way of practise. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BaguaKicksAss Posted November 20, 2013 On 11/20/2013 at 7:50 PM, Green Tiger said: I think he means that they are opposing forces more like oil and water, but wherever one is, the other is drawn. It was the "always vying for supremacy" comment that got me curious . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted November 20, 2013 On 11/20/2013 at 8:08 PM, BaguaKicksAss said: It was the "always vying for supremacy" comment that got me curious . Agreed.. as if they were two alpha males in the same spraying area... but they are not this way. Maybe just a bad choice of words. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Green Tiger Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) On 11/20/2013 at 8:22 PM, dawei said: Agreed.. as if they were two alpha males in the same spraying area... but they are not this way. Maybe just a bad choice of words. Kostas's words, not mine. http://timemonkradio.com/threads/kostas-danaos-time-monk-radio-network-presents-july-30th-2011.34/ IME, the best characterization of yin and yang energy is like north and south poles of a magnet. Kostas seems to frequently reference solar energy as being yang and gravity as yin. While the energy of nuclear fusion is expansive the energy of gravity contracts. "Vying for supremacy" does seem to invoke some connotations that are not fitting to these models. Edited November 20, 2013 by Green Tiger 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted November 20, 2013 On 11/20/2013 at 8:52 PM, Green Tiger said: Kostas's words, not mine. http://timemonkradio.com/threads/kostas-danaos-time-monk-radio-network-presents-july-30th-2011.34/ IME, the best characterization of yin and yang energy is like north and south poles of a magnet. Kostas seems to frequently reference solar energy as being yang and gravity as yin. While the energy of nuclear fusion is expansive the energy of gravity contracts. "Vying for supremacy" does seem to invoke some connotations that are not fitting to these models. I know it was his words and meant his bad choice of words... sorry I was not clear Interesting you mentions magnets. In my reply I wrote up an analogy to magnets as a better example, but then just deleted it... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vitalii Posted November 20, 2013 On 11/20/2013 at 8:52 PM, Green Tiger said: Kostas's words, not mine. http://timemonkradio.com/threads/kostas-danaos-time-monk-radio-network-presents-july-30th-2011.34/ IME, the best characterization of yin and yang energy is like north and south poles of a magnet. Kostas seems to frequently reference solar energy as being yang and gravity as yin. While the energy of nuclear fusion is expansive the energy of gravity contracts. "Vying for supremacy" does seem to invoke some connotations that are not fitting to these models. Yin and Yang are like water and fire, their powers are opposite: Yin - from the periphery to the center (for example, gravity); Yang from the center to the periphery (for example, sunshine / solar energy). As their powers are opposite, theory speaks about the need of fusion of Yin and Yang [匹配阴阳]. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted November 21, 2013 From my understanding, effective chi gong, "chi work," is also neigong, "internal work," as it transforms sexual energy into chi and spirit, provided sufficient mind-state, relaxation, meditation, wisdom, virtue, guidance, etc. Neigong and chigong do not necessarily aspire for Immortality, and so are not necessarily Neidan, "inner alchemy." Waigong, "external work," is using herbs and substances as part of neigong for vitality, and helping to tranform jing to chi and shen by these substances, for example, herbs that help balance jing to prevent leakage. This is not necessarily focused on Immortality. Waidan, "external alchemy," is using substances to assist the process of Neidan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted November 21, 2013 (edited) (deleted to consolidate posts) Edited November 25, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Green Tiger Posted November 25, 2013 On 11/21/2013 at 2:37 PM, More_Pie_Guy said: What I was taught was that if I meditated ungrounded I would develop incorrectly, and I would need to repeat the same number of hours in meditation but while grounded. Simply touching the ground after meditation would not compensate for meditating ungrounded. It is my understanding that most systems on earth work only with yang energy. Well, I definitely prefer to meditate outside on the ground, but I was never told I had to. Did you actually meet with John Chang or did you learn this from one of his students? So when you say, "work with yang energy" that doesn't mean they only CULTIVATE yang energy. It just means that when they use the chi for healing or martial arts or whatever, in that way they only use yang energy. Is that right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BaguaKicksAss Posted November 25, 2013 How come the perineum and not say the yongquan points? The reason I ask is that, I like to train martial arts outdoors in bare feet . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) On 11/25/2013 at 3:39 PM, BaguaKicksAss said: How come the perineum and not say the yongquan points? The reason I ask is that, I like to train martial arts outdoors in bare feet . Reply in spoiler below: Reveal hidden contents This is purely my own opinion. I can't feel or even work with yang energy in a waking state of consciousness, it requires a profoundly deep level of trance, and I can't maintain trance up and walking around. Based on my own observation I don't think trying to work with yang energy in a waking state of consciousness can really ever lead to any meaningful level of cultivation. It would be like the difference in trying to fill a swimming pool using a 5 gallon bucket vs a shot glass. ___________________________ On 11/25/2013 at 3:21 PM, Green Tiger said: Well, I definitely prefer to meditate outside on the ground, but I was never told I had to. Did you actually meet with John Chang or did you learn this from one of his students? So when you say, "work with yang energy" that doesn't mean they only CULTIVATE yang energy. It just means that when they use the chi for healing or martial arts or whatever, in that way they only use yang energy. Is that right? Reply in spoiler below: Reveal hidden contents Quote He explained to me, “Your yin comes from the earth and you need to be connected to it.” He said I have to sit outside on the ground. This was somewhat troubling because where I live it snows about twice a year and rains a lot, so while he was telling me this I was trying to figure how I was going to be able to do it. He also told me yang comes from the air and enters the energy point on the top of your head. And it needs to be equally balanced with my yin which enters another energy point at the area of your perineum. McMillan, Jim Seeking the Master of Mo Pai (p. 178). I don't think they cultivate much of anything to be honest, they would reach the same level of advancement chewing gum or jumping rope as doing whatever it is they are doing. Maybe they are working with whatever normal human level of energy is in their body, but they obviously aren't advancing much past that level as is evident in the results they achieve. ___________________________ On 11/20/2013 at 6:32 PM, Green Tiger said: I recently listened to an interview of Kostas and he said that you can't get yang without yin. One follows the other, always vying for supremacy. How, in your opinion, is yin energy cultivated separate from yang? Reply is in the spoiler below: Reveal hidden contents Quote “Sifu, can we hold this yin energy you transfer to us inside our bodies for long periods of time?” I asked. “No. You can only keep as much yin as you have yang. When I do a demonstration like this, the yin energy I give you leaches from your body almost immediately. It is a waste of my own energy, which I have to replenish by meditation.” The Magus of Java p113 What I was taught was that if I meditated ungrounded I would develop incorrectly, and I would need to repeat the same number of hours in meditation but while grounded. Simply touching the ground after meditation would not compensate for meditating ungrounded. So to answer your question, to the best of my understanding it is not possible to gather more yin energy than you have yang to counter balance. It is my understanding that most systems on earth work only with yang energy, and the differences in energy they call yin are perhaps only qualitative differences in yang energy, as real yin energy cannot be directly perceived by a normal human mind. I am not certain if these yang only systems are able to accumulate vast amounts of yang energy or not without also collecting yin energy. Based on the results I've seen, they probably don't collect much of either. Their development seems very modest and unimpressive to say the least, certainly not worth their investment in time spent training imho. ___________________________ On 11/20/2013 at 12:34 AM, Lataif said: It seems to me that there are (at least) 2 different sets of terminology being used by posters here. Let's see if I can differentiate them. Michael Winn (for example) . . . characterizes "Qigong" as external movement practice (Tai Chi, Brocade, Animals, etc). Everything else is "NeiGong" internal practice (Smile, MCO, Fusion, etc). But Yang, Jwing-Ming (for example) . . . characterizes them ALL as "Qigong" . . . with two subsets: "WaiDan" being the external . . . and "NeiDan" being the internal. Have I got that right (?) Which is more common (?) And are there yet others (?) Reply in spoiler below: Reveal hidden contents True neigong deals with the extraction and fusion of yin and yang energy. Virtually all other systems on earth are yang only systems, even though they claim to work with yin. Yin cannot be felt directly even though some claim otherwise. It can only be felt indirectly as the effect it has on the yang energy inside your body. Your consciousness itself is 100% pure yang energy, and it is not until yin and yang are brought together that yin is even perceptible. Worldwide there are only a small handful of such schools remaining, and virtually everything you've ever heard of is a yang only system. Edited November 25, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2ndchance Posted February 14, 2019 On 11/20/2013 at 1:40 AM, dawei said: Timely topic I was pondering the somewhat schizophrenic state of these terms. There is not much agreement as to exactly how the associations are related. I think the problem was introduced with the relatively modern term 'Qigong' as prior to that there were many specific terms used to define specific methods; but even some of those methods are not agreed upon but it was probably clearer on some level. I think a similar example would be the introduction of the word Daoism; look at the debate as to what that means and encompasses . People are very quick to get beyond that word to describe the kind of Daoism they want to define to cover their interest. Despite the anachronism this creates, I tend to believe there were 'men of dao' before any word was literally defined. But how to deal with the Qigong/Neigong/Waigong/Neidan/Waidan/Alchemy pinwheel... Here is what I would favor in terms of pure simplicity... not that it is the accepted structure but one which I think would gain the most acceptance. We use the words in their simplest form first (kind of Occam Razor approach): Qigong - Energy Work. Highest parent which can include any energy work Waigong - Focuses on external methods Neigong - Focuses on internal methods Alchemy - Focus on transmutation and/or transcendence Neidan - Alchemy which focuses on internal methods Waidan - Alchemy which focuses on external methods The reason this would never gain acceptance is that it still cannot capture all the variations in history, schools, classifications, etc. Too often, a few of the above are involved not just one. And the same term will be used differently too. As one author stated: "Pregadio cautions that despite the dramatic similarities with the Inner Alchemical practices that follow we should not simply equate early Daoist meditational regimes and the self-conscious Inner Alchemy of the Song dynasty on. Indeed, the de-divinization of body gods is one of the defining elements of Inner Alchemy. As Pregadio puts it: “the notion of generating an inner embryo is not a neidan innovation,” while reminding that “The image of the embryo changes according to the understanding of neidan itself.” This is fair warning that it will be impossible to align historical unfolding of methods and align them with ease. As well, what we think is first or second may not be as we believe. For example: While most everyone says that Waigong (and Waidan) come before Neigong (and Neidan), I don't believe that... it seems illogical on some level to me... but that may be another post/thread point to make... Edit: Forgot to provide this link. http://thetaobums.com/topic/12458-the-difference-between-chi-kung-and-nei-kung/ One statement I agree with is: My apologies for resurrecting this dead thread but I can't find the topic for http://thetaobums.com/topic/12458-the-difference-between-chi-kung-and-nei-kung/ Can the mods help me out here? My deepest thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sustainablefarm86 Posted February 14, 2019 (edited) On 2/14/2019 at 1:23 AM, 2ndchance said: My apologies for resurrecting this dead thread but I can't find the topic for http://thetaobums.com/topic/12458-the-difference-between-chi-kung-and-nei-kung/ Can the mods help me out here? My deepest thanks Change the tao to dao theTaobums theDaobums Edited February 14, 2019 by King Jade 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
