道教重要思想与教义(Taoist Important Thoughts and Canon)

[ChiDragon]

Let's dispense with the BS attempts to suggest you have any formal understanding, practice, or otherwise knowledge of Quanzhen methods...

 

Sorry, again. It is utterly impossible for me to respond to a certain degree of accuracy which is so characteristic to your remarks.

 

Thanks to a special feature which has been given to us by the forum, this kind of remarks is no longer highly visible to my eyes.

 

[Marblehead]

I was going to laugh but I think I will cry instead.

[dawei]

To be honest, I knew no more than anyone of us until the translation was done.

 

It would be a bit delusional to pull everyone else down to your level of not knowing anything about Quanzhen until you translated this. Maybe you can't accept that westerners can know something from chinese texts, practices, etc.

 

Many here have been trying to get you to be honest about this... so it's nice to hear you admit you didn't know anything about this before reading the translation. I think one down and about 1,000 more truths to go.

 

The last time I called BS on someone's posting, they actually appreciated it. That's another kind of honesty...

[ChiDragon]

I was going to laugh but I think I will cry instead.

Sorry, MH.

For the health of this thread, I must do what I have to. This is part of the DCXM. We must not have any contaminants to be dealt with for now. You will see what I mean when I go over the four taboos of the Taoist canon. Impatient and prejudicial thinking are very poor mental health for the cultivation of Xing Kung.

Edited December 16, 2013 by ChiDragon

[hamida]

The purpose of this thread is really about DCXM. The definition of DCXM has been established here. If there was any alteration to its definition, then, it will invalidate the philosophy of the Quanzhen Tao(全真道). Why Xing Kung is so important to us? It is because the body is manipulated by the mind. Therefore, the mind must be fine tuned to keep its function to the peak.

 

The Chinese Taoists had sat up a four taboos as canon for the DCXM, 酒色財氣(alcohol, libido, wealth and temperament). These four criteria are inter reacting which effect the mind and the body, inversely, to their normal functions and development.

 

So far, the members had discussed many ways to cultivate the Ming Kung but not much in the Xing Kung department, so to speak. Since there were some confusions about the Quanzhen Tao(全真道) in some recent threads, perhaps we could have them cleared up, here, objectively. I think it would be more advantageous if we have spent more time in Xing Kung. Even though we don't have to be a Taoist, perhaps we may learn from that to have some mental self-discipline.

 

The imperative function of man, in Confucian ethical philosophy, is to bring about harmony (和) in society. He does this through self-cultivation of civility (禮) ,which is the essence of the Way (道) that manifests in the conduct of the 聖人.

 

Is there a corresponding motivation in Quanchen Tao? You did say “What If people aware of the significance of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and MIng, then, the health of our lives and the society will be in progress at a much faster rate.” (Post #29) Progress in relation to what? You also did say that 真人 ”is an esoteric term for addressing a highly cultivated Taoist priest”. (Post #71) Is this similar to the religious “self-cultivation” of the Catholic priest to purify himself of sin?

 

What is the rational foundation for the four cardinal vices (酒色財氣)? The moral reasoning would perhaps throw light on the “mind and body purification” you speak of and help me understand the distinction you put between 真人 and 聖人.

[ChiDragon]

The imperative function of man, in Confucian ethical philosophy, is to bring about harmony (和) in society. He does this through self-cultivation of civility (禮) ,which is the essence of the Way (道) that manifests in the conduct of the 聖人.

 

Is there a corresponding motivation in Quanchen Tao? You did say “What If people aware of the significance of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and MIng, then, the health of our lives and the society will be in progress at a much faster rate.” (Post #29) Progress in relation to what? You also did say that 真人 ”is an esoteric term for addressing a highly cultivated Taoist priest”. (Post #71) Is this similar to the religious “self-cultivation” of the Catholic priest to purify himself of sin?

 

What is the rational foundation for the four cardinal vices (酒色財氣)? The moral reasoning would perhaps throw light on the “mind and body purification” you speak of and help me understand the distinction you put between 真人 and 聖人.

Very good. Thank you for leading the discussion in to the progress of this thread. That was exactly what I had in mind to go into the four cardinal vices. Please let me answer your intelligent questions one by one!

 

In regarding to the self-cultivation of civility(禮) and the essence of the Way(道), there is a fallacy in the thinking for most people about Tao(道) in this regard. The reason I have said that is because there is a distinctive difference about Tao(道) between Confucius and Lao Tze.

 

Confucian's Tao(道) is about the morality of human conduct which one has the goal tend to be a sage(聖人); and Lao Tze's Tao is about the Law of Nature. In Taoist religious practice(only), a Taoist has a goal to preserve one's life by integrating with Nature and become a True Person(真人). Hence, the term 聖人(sage) is a term was applied to Confucians; and the term 真人(True Person) is esoteric for a Taoist.

 

In regarding to Post #29: Progress in relation to what?

In general, it was meant that is the progress of the development of a human society.

 

In regarding to Post #71: Is this similar to the religious “self-cultivation” of the Catholic priest to purify himself of sin?

No, the self-cultivation of a Taoist is not about sin but to purify the body and mind without any contamination. For the body is like not having any bad habits or substance; and for the mind to be healthy is like having good logic with good reasoning and keep the fallacies aside. As a result, to purify the sins maybe just a hidden agenda which came with the package. Thus a Taoist do not consider any notion about sin other than just the bad habits which need to be eliminated.

 

What is the rational foundation for the four cardinal vices (酒色財氣)?

This requires a separate post for a more thorough and explicit explanation. Btw I have intended to do so, next, before you come about with your valuable questions.

Edited December 17, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

What is the rational foundation for the four cardinal vices (酒色財氣)?

In our daily life, 酒色財氣 are the four major culprits with the greatest temptation which cause the most disturbance to the mind.

 

酒(alcohol) upsets the mind

色(libido) titillates the mind

財(wealth) entices the mind

氣(temperament) agitates the mind.

 

The combination of 酒(alcohol), 色(libido), and 氣(temperament) are harmful to the mind as well as to the body. Especially, the 色(libido) is the worse criteria which can effect the health of the body tremendously. The sexual drive was triggered, it make cause a male to be over masturbated which is very harmful to the body and mind. Over masturbation may cause a person to be lackadaisical, lack of interest in life and detach oneself from social environment.

 

Let's look at 氣(temperament). I think most people do recognize this character which known as "Chi" whit the meaning as "energy"; but why it has the meaning of "temperament" here? Well, the character is the most confusing character in the Chinese language due to its multiple definitions. Even the natives are having problems with it. Most of the time, they really don't know what it meant exactly when they say it. The reason they say it is because they were just repeating what they were told without knowing its actual meaning. It is worse in the west, its only known definition is "energy". It may cause a lots of confusion and misinterpretations when the character was used solely with one definition.

Edited December 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

氣(temperament) agitates the mind.

 

 

Why is 氣 is temperament here. Actually, it is shot for the compound characters 生氣 for "angry".

Literally, it means "generate hot air". Here is the logic, when people get upset they generate lots of heat and sweat. It seams like steamy hot air. In the Chinese logic, they've used that for the description for someone who was being "angry". In addition, one might say it generate lots of body energy. It is because when one gets upset does built up lots of energy and get ready to fight someone. However, the former was the original thought about 生氣(angry) and the latter might be an after thought.

Edited December 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

生氣, anger, may cause someone to be violent.
Of course, this will not happen to a highly cultivated Taoist.

Edited December 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

氣(temperament) agitates the mind.


Note: It is time to learn a new meaning of Chi.

[Marblehead]

Yes, that character agitates my mind. Too much going on!

[hamida]

Why is 氣 is temperament here. Actually, it is shot for the compound characters 生氣 for "angry".

Literally, it means "generate hot air". Here is the logic, when people get upset they generate lots of heat and sweat. It seams like steamy hot air. In the Chinese logic, they've used that for the description for someone who was being "angry". In addition, one might say it generate lots of body energy. It is because when one gets upset does built up lots of energy and get ready to fight someone. However, the former was the original thought about 生氣(angry) and the latter might be an after thought.

 

You say “Chi 氣”, in the context of the five cardinal vices (酒色財氣), stands for temperament. A foreigner would consider the association strange. Another curious connection, I find, is that between 色 (which literally means color) and libido. Would you please explain this?

 

The five cardinal vices (酒色財氣) have a parallel in the Seven Deadly Sins of Christianity. While Quanchen Tao stresses the purity of the mind, the Christian goal is the purity of the soul. I realize that I am reading into what you say western ideas that I already hold. My interest is philosophical and I would like to understand the moral psychology of Quanchen Tao’s religious ideology.

 

Alcohol (酒) , within limits, is not regarded as a vice in western cultures and wealth (財) is a virtue in America. Moral truths are not universal because moral facts are formed in societies in which moral sensibility is formed. But as you pointed out, Xing Kung cultivation that culminates in the realization of the 真人 frees man of all fallacies, moral disagreements and diversity.

 

How does one cultivate mind purification?

[Vitalii]

You say “Chi 氣”, in the context of the five cardinal vices (酒色財氣), stands for temperament. A foreigner would consider the association strange. Another curious connection, I find, is that between 色 (which literally means color) and libido. Would you please explain this?

1) 酒色財氣 it is an idiom which can be translated as - "wine, sex, avarice and temper-anger"

http://www.mdbg.net/...qb=酒色財氣

 

2) http://baike.baidu.com/view/101607.htm

 

于是，就在了元题诗右侧题上《和佛印禅师诗》一首。其诗云：

“饮酒不醉是英豪，恋色不迷最为高；不义之财不可取，有气不生气自消。”

 

Therefore, I prefer to translate:

 

酒 - Alcohol

色 - Sexual desire

财 - Wealth / avarice / - Wealth is not vice, but avarice and greed are vices.

气 - temper / anger /

[ChiDragon]

You say “Chi 氣”, in the context of the four five cardinal vices (酒色財氣), stands for temperament. A foreigner would consider the association strange. Another curious connection, I find, is that between 色 (which literally means color) and libido. Would you please explain this?

How does one cultivate mind purification?

Gladly!

 

As I had said many times before, “Chi 氣” has multiple meanings and its application of usage. If someone only know one definition, then one will have trouble interpreting Chinese.

 

氣(chi): air; gas; energy; function of the internal organs(in TCM); breathing(in Chi Kung).

The idea for 氣 to be meant "temperament" was from the sign of being angry of a person. When a person gets mad or upset, the person breathes heavily which exchanges lots of air through the body. The Chinese called that "生氣" which means "angry".

 

In regarding to 色, in order to make some good sense out of it, one need to be familiar with the language and understand the usage in the different Chinese religions.

 

色 has its basic linguistic meaning and esoteric meanings for different religions

1. The linguistic definition in the ordinary daily life, it means color.

2. As an esoteric term for a Taoist, 色 has something to do with getting one sexually aroused, such as a woman, porno, thoughts, desire, or anything that trigger the libido of a person.

3. To a Buddhist, 色 was referred as the materialistic world.

 

If one has been cultivated to keep the four cardinal vices out of one's life, then it was considered to be that the mind has been purified.

 

PS...

If one translates 色 as "color" and 氣 as "energy", probably, it wouldn't make any sense for a Taoist to think that they are part of the four cardinal vices.

Edited December 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[hamida]

于是，就在了元题诗右侧题上《和佛印禅师诗》一首。其诗云：

“饮酒不醉是英豪，恋色不迷最为高；不义之财不可取，有气不生气自消。”

 

Therefore, I prefer to translate:

 

酒 - Alcohol

色 - Sexual desire

财 - Wealth / avarice / - Wealth is not vice, but avarice and greed are vices.

气 - temper / anger /

 

“饮酒不醉是英豪，恋色不迷最为高；不义之财不可取，有气不生气自消。”

To imbibe without intoxication, lose oneself in fornication without corruption, amass riches without injustice, and rage without anger is the mark of high culitvation. Is that plausible?

Edited December 21, 2013 by hamida

[Vitalii]

 

“饮酒不醉是英豪，恋色不迷最为高；不义之财不可取，有气不生气自消。”

To imbibe without intoxication, lose onself in fornication without corruption, amass riches without injustice, and rage without anger is the mark of high culitvation. Is that plausible?

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32561-the-teaching-of-quanzhen/page-2#entry496716

[ChiDragon]

Alcohol (酒) , within limits, is not regarded as a vice in western cultures and wealth (財) is a virtue in America. Moral truths are not universal because moral facts are formed in societies in which moral sensibility is formed. But as you pointed out, Xing Kung cultivation that culminates in the realization of the 真人 frees man of all fallacies, moral disagreements and diversity.

 

How does one cultivate mind purification?

 

Yes, alcohol within limits is fine for those who are only a partial Quanzhen Tao practitioner. The Quanzhen Taoists live an austere life, wealth is insignificant to them. The necessity for survival is only required to be at minimal. Btw The full time Quanzhen Taoists are abide by the four cardinal vices with no exception. A partial practitioner of Quanzhen Tao will not be considered to be a 真人.

 

Partial practitioner of Quanzhen Tao means that a person can be married, have money and can drink within limits but still practice the of principles of Quanzhen Tao. This group of Taoists is called the "正一派".

 

 

Xing Kung cultivation that culminates in the realization of the 真人 frees man of all fallacies, moral disagreements and diversity.

 

I think you had answered your own question about the mind purification by the above quote.

 

[Vitalii]

How does one cultivate mind purification?

 

some general recommendations

http://zhendaopai.com/forum/threads/mind-work-and-meditation-in-daoism.26/

[hamida]

some general recommendations

http://zhendaopai.com/forum/threads/mind-work-and-meditation-in-daoism.26/

 

Please join us in the conversation. As I said, my interest in Chinese thought is philosophical. My perspective would be that of an observer rather than a practitioner. All forms of Taoist beliefs and practices can be traced back to two Classical Texts: The Tao Te Ching and the Chuang Tzu. My thesis is that classical Chinese thinking is fundamentally humanistic and secular. Your direct knowledge of the cultivation of special powers of a transcendental nature would be useful in our discussion.

[ChiDragon]

 

“饮酒不醉是英豪，恋色不迷最为高；不义之财不可取，有气不生气自消。”

To imbibe without intoxication, lose oneself in fornication without corruption, amass riches without injustice, and rage without anger is the mark of high culitvation. Is that plausible?

The English is quite different from the original poem. Where did you get this translation from?

 

Perhaps, I'll add in the missing words!

 

1. 饮酒不醉是英豪，

2. 恋色不迷最为高；

3. 不义之财不可取，

4. 有气不生气自消。

 

1. To imbibe without intoxication is heroic,

2. Engaging in sex but not indulged is superior,

3. It is wise not to be rapacious for filthy lucre,

4. Rage without expressing anger will remain calm.

 

Is that plausible now?

Edited December 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[hamida]

The English is quite different from the original poem. Where did you get this translation from?

 

It is my interpretation - my own reading, to be exact - of the quote in Chinese rather than a translation. It is no doubt biased towards an individualistic and subjective view of man.

 

In my opinion, Taoist thought is colored by Buddhist ideas of self-liberation not found in Classical Chinese textual sources of which the Tao Te Ching as well as the Chuang Tsu are a part. My appraisal discount all interpretative material of later Chinese commentaries keeping in mind that even the received versions of the Classics themselves are "infected" by those who put their archaelogical findings together.

 

My vision – that pure Chinese thought has no supernatural core to it - is a generalization subject to critical comment and I look forward to arguments in support of a contrary point of view.

 

Perhaps, I'll add in the missing words!

 

1. 饮酒不醉是英豪，

2. 恋色不迷最为高；

3. 不义之财不可取，

4. 有气不生气自消。

 

1. To imbibe without intoxication is heroic,

2. Engaging in sex but not indulged is superior,

3. It is wise not to be rapacious for filthy lucre,

4. Rage without expressing anger will remain calm.

 

Is that plausible now?

 

Your translation is closer to the text. And yes, it is plausible and doable even if the moral significance of the enterprise is somewhat obscure.

[ChiDragon]

In my opinion, Taoist thought is colored by Buddhist ideas of self-liberation not found in Classical Chinese textual sources of which the Tao Te Ching as well as the Chuang Tsu are a part. My appraisal discount all interpretative material of later Chinese commentaries keeping in mind that even the received versions of the Classics themselves are "infected" by those who put their archaelogical findings together.

 

My vision – that pure Chinese thought has no supernatural core to it - is a generalization subject to critical comment and I look forward to arguments in support of a contrary point of view.

 

Your opinion is highly respected. Perhaps, there are some infections. Even, the westerners had attempted to color Taoist thought with Christianity. However, I wouldn't discount all interpretive materials because there is quite a number of knowledgeable native scholars had made some valuable factual contributions. IMO Those contributions do have merits which lead to the true meaning of the classics. At least, some of them are the closest.

Edited December 21, 2013 by ChiDragon

[hamida]

1. 饮酒不醉是英豪，

2. 恋色不迷最为高；

3. 不义之财不可取，

4. 有气不生气自消。

 

1. To imbibe without intoxication is heroic,

2. Engaging in sex but not indulged is superior,

3. It is wise not to be rapacious for filthy lucre,

4. Rage without expressing anger will remain calm.

 

Is that plausible now?

 

The four cardinal vices are worth examining.

 

1. Traditionally, alcohol has markedly more impact in western cultures. It is curious why it is cited as a barrier to self- purification in Chinese society. It wasn't until the 19th century that intoxication from opium was a social problem in China.

 

2. I wonder if 色 should not be given a broader meaning as given in Chapter 12 of the Tao Te Ching.

 

What are your views on the above?

[Marblehead]

The four cardinal vices are worth examining.

From a safe distance, of course.

[ChiDragon]

The four cardinal vices are worth examining.

 

1. Traditionally, alcohol has markedly more impact in western cultures. It is curious why it is cited as a barrier to self- purification in Chinese society. It wasn't until the 19th century that intoxication from opium was a social problem in China.

 

2. I wonder if 色 should not be given a broader meaning as given in Chapter 12 of the Tao Te Ching.

 

What are your views on the above?

 

1. I think alcohol has marked more impact in all cultures. It effects the mind more than the body, except the liver. Unfortunately, opium has a tendency of weaken the body more than the mind. It is worse in having a weak body than a weak mind.

 

2. In Chapter 12, the colors you are referring to are the true colors which was used metaphorically by Loa Tze.

五色令人目盲

The five colors may blind one's eyes.

 

It was to advise people not to be indulged to live in a colorful life style. All the extravagant tastes can blind one's eyes which will not see the side of poverty. This idea of 色 might have been borrowed from here to create their own definitions by the various religious groups.