道教重要思想与教义(Taoist Important Thoughts and Canon)

[Marblehead]

This idea of 色 might have been borrowed from here to create their own definitions by the various religious groups.

 

 

Actually, I think that all four can be linked back to Chuang Tzu. And, if I rememeber correctly, he linked them back to common knowledge, likely of earlier Taoist philosophers and the TTC.

[dawei]

2. I wonder if 色 should not be given a broader meaning as given in Chapter 12 of the Tao Te Ching.

 

色 as 'color' used in the idom conveys the ancient meaning of the pleasure/desire (colors which arise in the body) of sexual contact or even non-contact from simple desire. It is also used of the homosexual relations and thus not really gender specific as to the partner.

 

This has nothing to do with religious adaptation. (Be care who you ask about chinese meaning and history... you get anything from some).

 

The phrase 恋色 (sexual desire) is also in A Dream of Red Mansions.

 

If we want a serious consideration of its origin, then we need to go back to the Mawangdui manuscripts, and Confucian discussion on the poetry It is laid out rather black and white in what we know as the Classic of Poetry. (Hopefully this will dispel any misinformation about religious adaption).

 

It was a common device to use people's desires and emotions as lessons. One can even find the pleasure of music compared to sexual desires. The common themes were about proprietary vs promiscuity; Do these stop where they should stop or are they in uncontrolled excess. These stories vary from people who are attracted from a distance and it is but a mere dream to those whose longing is never satisfied (even to mean physically never together--forlorn lovers who cannot meet).

Edited December 23, 2013 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Actually, I think that all four can be linked back to Chuang Tzu. And, if I rememeber correctly, he linked them back to common knowledge, likely of earlier Taoist philosophers and the TTC.

 

What are the particular chapters of Chuang Tze that you had in mind?

[Marblehead]

Chapter Thirty-two - LIEH YU-K'OU

 

Specifically

 

 

"For this reason the gentleman will employ a man on a distant mission and observe his degree of loyalty, will employ him close at hand and observe his degree of respect. He will hand him troublesome affairs and observe how well he manages them, will suddenly ask his advice and observe how wisely he answers. He will exact some difficult promise from him and see how well he keeps it, turn over funds to him and see with what benevolence he dispenses them, inform him of the danger he is in and note how faithful he is to his duties. He will get him drunk with wine and observe how well he handles himself, place him in mixed company and see what effect beauty has upon him. By applying these nine tests, you may determine who is the unworthy man."

 

Burton Watson translation

[dawei]

Chapter Thirty-two - LIEH YU-K'OU

 

Specifically

 

 

"For this reason the gentleman will employ a man on a distant mission and observe his degree of loyalty, will employ him close at hand and observe his degree of respect. He will hand him troublesome affairs and observe how well he manages them, will suddenly ask his advice and observe how wisely he answers. He will exact some difficult promise from him and see how well he keeps it, turn over funds to him and see with what benevolence he dispenses them, inform him of the danger he is in and note how faithful he is to his duties. He will get him drunk with wine and observe how well he handles himself, place him in mixed company and see what effect beauty has upon him. By applying these nine tests, you may determine who is the unworthy man."

 

Burton Watson translation

 

And surprise, surprise... who is quoted as saying this?

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. I left that part out, didn't I?

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 33 列御寇 ( LIEH YU-K'OU)

 

　　孔子说：“人心比山川险恶，比知天困难；天还有春夏秋冬早晚时间的限定，人却容貌敦厚而性情深沉。所以有的外貌谨慎而思想骄溢，有的外表善长而内心愚蠢，有的外貌温顺而内心暴躁，有的外表坚强而内心濡缓，有的外表和缓而内心急躁。所以他就义如饥渴，弃义又如避热。所以君子让他到远处做事考验他的忠诚，让他在近处做事考验他的恭敬，给他烦杂的任务考验他的能力，向他突然提出问题考验他的心智，把钱财委托他考验他的清廉，告诉他危险考验他的节操。让他酒醉看他的仪则，混杂相处而看他的面色。九种征验做到，不肖的人就可看得出来了。”

You sure didn't! The verse is in Chapter Thirty-three. No wonder I couldn't find it.

Edited December 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

The verse is in Chapter Thirty-three. No wonder I couldn't find it.

Different translators break the chapters at different places.

[dawei]

Hehehe. I left that part out, didn't I?

 

Yes... as what we find out is that ZZ has no affinity for the way of such inner virtue and the testing of man.

[dawei]

Different translators break the chapters at different places.

Yes... you throw the entire board into a wild goose chase looking for the golden egg chapter

[Marblehead]

Yes... you throw the entire board into a wild goose chase looking for the golden egg chapter

Just think what would happen if I quoted from the Te-Tao Ching based on the layout of the Ma-wang-tui order.

[ChiDragon]

"For this reason the gentleman
1. will employ a man on a distant mission and observe his degree of loyalty,
2. will employ him close at hand and observe his degree of respect.
3. He will hand him troublesome affairs and observe how well he manages them,
4. will suddenly ask his advice and observe how wisely he answers.
5. will give him a task in a timely manner and observe his promptness as promised,
6. turn over funds to him and see with what benevolence he dispenses them,
7. inform him of the danger he is in and note how faithful he is to his duties.
8. He will get him drunk with wine and observe how well he handles himself,
9. place him in mixed company and see what effect beauty has upon him.
By applying these nine tests, you may determine who is the unworthy man."


所以君子
1.让他到远处做事考验他的忠诚，
2. 让他在近处做事考验他的恭敬，
3. 给他烦杂的任务考验他的能力，
4. 向他突然提出问题考验他的心智，
5. 急与之期而观其信(classic)
6. 把钱财委托他考验他的清廉，
7. 告诉他危险考验他的节操。
8. 让他酒醉看他的仪则，
9. 混杂相处而看他的面色。
九种征验做到，不肖的人就可看得出来了。”

These social behaviors are to be observed and expected from a trustworthy person.

Edited December 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

"For this reason the gentleman

. . .

 

These social behaviors are to be observed and expected from a trustworthy person.

 

ZZ was quoting Confucius who is the source of the comments... ZZ goes on to show he disagrees with it...

 

Let's keep the quote in perspective of ZZ's writings.

[hamida]

"For this reason the gentleman

1. will employ a man on a distant mission and observe his degree of loyalty,

2. will employ him close at hand and observe his degree of respect.

3. He will hand him troublesome affairs and observe how well he manages them,

4. will suddenly ask his advice and observe how wisely he answers.

5. will give him a task in a timely manner and observe his promptness as promised,

6. turn over funds to him and see with what benevolence he dispenses them,

7. inform him of the danger he is in and note how faithful he is to his duties.

8. He will get him drunk with wine and observe how well he handles himself,

9. place him in mixed company and see what effect beauty has upon him.

By applying these nine tests, you may determine who is the unworthy man."

 

 

所以君子

1.让他到远处做事考验他的忠诚，

2. 让他在近处做事考验他的恭敬，

3. 给他烦杂的任务考验他的能力，

4. 向他突然提出问题考验他的心智，

5. 急与之期而观其信(classic)

6. 把钱财委托他考验他的清廉，

7. 告诉他危险考验他的节操。

8. 让他酒醉看他的仪则，

9. 混杂相处而看他的面色。

九种征验做到，不肖的人就可看得出来了。”

 

These social behaviors are to be observed and expected from a trustworthy person.

 

Dawai's point on the use of the character 色 in Chinese literature is well taken. But it would take a heavily intoxicated scholar, on the way to the imperial exams, to coin the phrase 恋色 to suggest sexual desire to titillate a peasant maiden pouring out the wine. We are, however, investigating the meaning of the character 色 taken out of a Taoist canon.

 

In this context, I would also take issue with the use of 色 in the translation of Line 9 of the quote above. There is no metaphorical allusion to the seduction of "beauty" ( of a sexual kind). I would translate 面色 as "facial coloration" to mean demeanor: a darkened face to indicate upset and a blushing red face to show embarrassent.

 

Would you kindly clarify?

[dawei]

One thing to clarify is that the nine english lines above are translations by Watson, minus the red line 5.

 

One should give a reference to translated work: http://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu3.html#32

 

 

Dawai's point on the use of the character 色 in Chinese literature is well taken. But it would take a heavily intoxicated scholar, on the way to the imperial exams, to coin the phrase 恋色 to suggest sexual desire to titillate a peasant maiden pouring out the wine. We are, however, investigating the meaning of the character 色 taken out of a Taoist canon.

 

恋色 - sexual desire. I'm not going to push too strong for the idea that this as the best translation but it should be realized that there is a very naturalistic and healthy aspect to sexual desire... and the origin seems to come more from the purity of the queen (in classic poetry).

 

It is more ancient softened with 思色. Once Confucians took to the moral high ground on anything which might be natural and compromised, then it seems the ruist like to use 恋色 to push their point of view.

 

In this context, I would also take issue with the use of 色 in the translation of Line 9 of the quote above. There is no metaphorical allusion to the seduction of "beauty" ( of a sexual kind). I would translate 面色 as "facial coloration" to mean demeanor: a darkened face to indicate upset and a blushing red face to show embarrassent.

 

It may be a shame that Legge and Watson both took the sexual direction with the chapter. I think facial complexion (coloration) is valid given the historical use of the words.

[ChiDragon]

In this context, I would also take issue with the use of 色 in the translation of Line 9 of the quote above. There is no metaphorical allusion to the seduction of "beauty" ( of a sexual kind). I would translate 面色 as "facial coloration" to mean demeanor: a darkened face to indicate upset and a blushing red face to show embarrassment.

 

Would you kindly clarify?

 

You are absolutely correct.

面色: facial expression.

 

One may observe the facial expression to determinate present mood of an individual.

 

Edited December 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Nice discussion guys!!!

 

And no, ChiDragon, I'm not sorry for distracting (but only a little) from your presentation. What is being discussed is important in regard to Taoism. And I would suggest that Religious Taoism does the same thing Confucius did, that is, try to change the true nature of man.

[ChiDragon]

 

You are absolutely correct.

面色: facial expression.

 

One may observe the facial expression to determinate present mood of an individual.

 

Sorry, let me make myself clarify.

 

The correct translation for line 9 should be:

9. 混杂相处而看他的面色。

9. Make him live with a crowd of different people and observe his reaction from his facial expression.

Edited December 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Sorry, let me make myself clarify.

 

The correct trnaslation for line 9 should be:

9. 混杂相处而看他的面色。

9. Make him live with a crowd of different of people and observe his reaction from his faciai expression.

 

It is about complexion (color of face) not expression (shape of face).

 

And Confucius would not ask strangers to live with family outsiders.

 

The meaning is to mix, mingle and interact/come into contact/associate with people in natural settings; Not forcing people to live together to see their reaction.

 

Hiding one's expression is easier than hiding one's complexion as it is revealed in one's interactions with others.

[ChiDragon]

Let's stay on track, keeping the facts straight is part of the cultivation of Xing Kung.

[dawei]

面色 - Facial coloration or complexion

 

The ruist like the phrase:

 

面色或白或黑 - complexion sometimes white sometimes dark

 

And from the histories:

 

面色乍白乍赤 - complexion suddenly white suddenly red

 

 

Hopefully this clears up any lingering doubts as to complexion vs expression.

[ChiDragon]

It doesn't make it any clearer but more muddier.
There are two sides for this term.
You are only looking at one side of 面色 and taken it out of context.

It is true that 面色 can be meant complexion or coloration.

However, the contextual meaning in line 9 is "facial expression" rather than "complexion".
9. 混杂相处而看他的面色。
9. Make him live with a crowd of different people and observe his reaction from his facial expression.

Edited December 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ShifuC]

Then it's not pure Taoism then, is it? Chuang Tzu would likely vomit.

 

considering Zhuangzi's text has parts that are older than the Laozi, indicating he was quite older than Buddha and before Buddhism, he couldn't have an opinion on the subject as a mortal.

 

As an immortal I have a hard time seeing him care about such divisions. There is the Way and there is division. He was interested in the Way.

 

As for "true Taoist" it seems you have a lot of opinions. But it was Zhuangzi who said "where is the man who has forgotten the words so I can speak with him?"

 

The Way is all inclusive, it has no judgments between religions and dogmas, nay not even between Laozi, Zhuangzi, Nei Yeh, and other foundational texts that had differing ideas.

 

When you put out statements that say "this is right" and "this is the Way" it stifles discussions and dialogues. One thing the Lotus Sutra shares in its immeasurable wisdom is Expedient Means. Whatever gets the person talking and moving towards the Way is the "right" doctrine. Otherwise it's all "the filth of frivoulous debate". Sometimes that might be Taoism or Buddhism or Calculus or Tarrot or Mormonism, or even Atheism. If a person wishes to share a word with the Tao-mind in any person, forget your own perceptions and hone into theirs and then you can "find the man who has forgotten the words"

 

Then no conversation can ever be stifled.

 

If you look carefully I never said I agree or disagree. No harsh means of debate are herein. Just gentle pointers. I am not here to debate only elucidate. Peace to the world on the pagan day of celebrating the Amita Buddha's emergence in the Western continent of Jambudvipa (Christmas). I better get off this forum, you guys are going to be too interesting to leave otherwise!

[Marblehead]

As for "true Taoist" it seems you have a lot of opinions. But it was Zhuangzi who said "where is the man who has forgotten the words so I can speak with him?"

 

 

No problem with what you said however, I will speak to this.

 

It is true, Chuang Tzu did say that. Problem is, here on this internet forum words are the only media we have to share our opinions. Yes, I have many opinions. Some may be invalid. But unless I share them and listen to feedback the only person who will judge the validity of what I say would be myself. Now, let's face it, in my opinion, I'm always right. So I must leave it to others to point out the weaknesses in my understandings and opinions.

 

But I do live my life without words (or even concepts) except when I need communicate with others.

 

I will add though, I think that Chuang Tzu would not accept any dogma in his life regardless of its source.

 

And we are not disagreeing or anything like that. We are having a discussion. Will we always agree? I doubt it.

[hamida]

If you look carefully I never said I agree or disagree. No harsh means of debate are herein. Just gentle pointers. I am not here to debate only elucidate. Peace to the world on the pagan day of celebrating the Amita Buddha's emergence in the Western continent of Jambudvipa (Christmas). I better get off this forum, you guys are going to be too interesting to leave otherwise!

 

To my mind, the only philosophy from the East, the Middle-East actually, that has totally shaped the western mind is that of Jesus Christ. The apotheosis of this man by religious priests has obliterated the significance of his thought to professional philosophers in the west. The principles that frame the virtue ethics of Jesus are remarkably similar to that of Confucius. This was why Matteo Ricci (Jesuit) was able to compose his evangelical dialogue T'ien-chu shih-i (The True Meaning of the Lord of Heaven) in the attempt to use the Chinese way of thinking to convince Chinese mandarins that Confucius' teaching came from the Christian God. It would have been more beneficial if Fingarette (American philosopher) had explained to us the philosophical insights of Jesus' holy teaching in contemporary terms instead of trying to lay bare "the religious dimensions of the Analects" (Fingarette, Herbert. Confucius - the Secular As Sacred. New York, Harper & Row, 1972)

 

In memory of Jesus, who was a great teacher and thinker, I wish a Merry Christmas to everyone here who strives to find richness in life through study and self-cultivation, not necessarily as Quanchen Taoists but in the same spirit to rid oneself of fallacies.

 

My apologies to the OP for this diversion.

Edited December 25, 2013 by hamida