道教重要思想与教义(Taoist Important Thoughts and Canon)

[ChiDragon]

I am sure others here will have different arguments. If you could offer an example or two of the language difficulty you speak of with regard to specific passage on Quanchen Tao, it would clarify your point and open a discussion on this matter.

 

Gladly, if you would kindly go back to Post #2 and compare with the thread and site below; you will see a difference of interpretation.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/25984-xing-and-ming-essence-and-life-in-the-ddj/

 

http://silenttao.com/2010/03/cultivating-xing-and-ming/

 

Another example is not the native language per se but in a Taoist esoteric term.

The Taoist term "採藥".

Its direction translation is to "pick some medicine". In western thinking, any herbal plant has not been processed was not considered as a medicine yet but still a herb. In Chinese thinking, any herb was considered to be a medicine because it does something good for the body. Therefore, to a Chinese native, to pick some herbs means to pick some medicine. However, to a Chinese Taoist, "採藥" has a complete different definition. If a Taoist says he is going to the hills to "pick some herbs", it actually means the Taoist is going up the hills to breathe some fresh air.

Edited December 11, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

from the article you've translated, it's obvious that even the Chinese context doesn't help to understand Quanzhen (or any other Dao school). For sure, the language is a barrier. And Classic Chinese is another barrier. But so many people can read Classic Chinese, but so little can understand Quanzhen. The understanding is not about mind abilities, it needs much more, much deeper resonance with ancient ideas. It's possible to learn, but it's hard and it cannot be done sitting in the Internet. For people of any cultural context.

 

It sounds like one will never know. I would use my own discretion on your denial remarks, perhaps.

Edited December 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[opendao]

 

It sounds like one will never know.

 

It depends on person.

[ChiDragon]

It depends on person.

 

You know you have reminded me of once I had received a book written by a Buddhist monk. There was a big character of 禪 (Zen) on the cover. When the lady handed me the book, I thought that I can read and find out something about Zen. However, the whole book was about what Zen is not. It had never said what Zen was all about in the one inch thick book.

[ChiDragon]

The cultivation of Xing in Quanzhen is to transform a "false mind" into a "true mind" rather than face reality as one might thought. To a Taoist, a false mind is full of contaminants which is deceiving the mind from seeing things clearly. A true mind only see and isolate the facts among the chaotic fallacies. Any uncertainty or assumption will make the thought incomplete which puts the mind into a state of falsehood. Thus it has not met the canon of Quanzhen Tao.

Edited December 11, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

The cultivation of Xing in Quanzhen is to transform a "false mind" into a "true mind" rather than face reality as one might thought. To a Taoist, a false mind is full of contaminants which is deceiving the mind from seeing things clearly. A true mind only see and isolate the facts among the chaotic fallacies. Any uncertainty or assumption will make the thought incomplete which puts the mind into a state of falsehood. Thus it has not met the canon of Quanzhen Tao.

 

Exactly what Quanzhen teaching?

 

The problem with the translation overall is that you have not yet described which Quanzhen you are explaining... words become words here...

 

And there we go...

[ChiDragon]

DCXM.

[dawei]

DCXM.

 

Can you explain your experience in DCXM and the years you spent understanding Quanzhen practices?

 

On what basis can you assert your understanding and explanation of the practices and how why they have a northern and southern branch, and what implications they have for practice?

 

Like:

 

Why Xing first for some branches?

 

Why Ming first for some branches?

 

Which do you recommend?

Edited December 11, 2013 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

I think the pertinent information in this thread is quite adequate. What comes first is up to the preference of each school. It is not up to me. I would follow the recommendation of the Quanzhen Tao. The mind is before the body.

[dawei]

I think the pertinent information in this thread is quite adequate. What comes first is up to the preference of each school. It is not up to me. I would follow the recommendation of the Quanzhen Tao. The mind is before the body.

 

So your just a translator, word for word, without context or meaning, and do not understand or know anything about the Quanzhen practices or traditions or branches...

 

That clears it up now. Thanks.

[opendao]

I think the pertinent information in this thread is quite adequate. What comes first is up to the preference of each school. It is not up to me. I would follow the recommendation of the Quanzhen Tao. The mind is before the body.

 

Good luck, you are definitely not the first on this way :-) But the information in this thread is not adequate and complete. Sometimes it's enough to understand what "zen is not".

[ChiDragon]

Good luck, you are definitely not the first on this way :-) But the information in this thread is not adequate and complete. Sometimes it's enough to understand what "zen is not".

I haven't gotten an adequate or definite answer from you, so far, since your presence in the forum. I can see where you stand in the cultivation of Xing Kung.

 

Fortunately, I think I know how you think; but sorry to say that I still don't know what is in your mind. Perhaps it's enough for being not knowing.

Edited December 11, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

So your just a translator, word for word, without context or meaning, and do not understand or know anything about the Quanzhen practices or traditions or branches...

 

That clears it up now. Thanks.

NO, that muddied the waters. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

NO, that muddied the waters. Hehehe.

That was only in the eyes of the beholder. One likes to see what one wants to see. One may not want others to see what one may not want to see. One may also want to muddy the waters more muddier to cover what one doesn't know.

 

Of course, this is really none of my concern.

Edited December 12, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

So, what Neidan is all about?
Well, according to the definition of the DCXM, Neidan is the cultivation of the inner mind and the inner body. When the inner mind and body of a person become purified from contamination, it was said to be that a person has attained to a state with a true mind and true body. Hence, this person becomes a 真人(true person) without contaminant and that is why a highly cultivated Taoist priest was being addressed as.

Edited December 12, 2013 by ChiDragon

[opendao]

So, what Neidan is all about?

Well, according to the definition of the DCXM, Neidan is the cultivation of the inner mind and the inner body. When the inner mind and body of a person become purified from contamination, it was said to be that a person has attained to a state with a true mind and true body. Hence, this person becomes a 真人(true person) without contaminant and that is why a highly cultivated Taoist priest was being addressed as.

 

You forgot about merging Xing and Ming. "True body" and "true mind" cannot be reached before that. Why you read articles and not classics?

[ChiDragon]

You forgot about merging Xing and Ming. "True body" and "true mind" cannot be reached before that. Why you read articles and not classics?

Do you know what is DCXM stand for....??? That was a test for you and you failed. Sorry, you'd fell into my trap. Next time please be careful. I am not so easy to be dealt with.

 

PS....

If I haven't read the classics, then I wouldn't have gone this far. Right....???

[opendao]

Do you know what is DCXM stand for....??? That was a test for you and you failed. Sorry, you'd fell into my trap. Next time please be careful. I am not so easy to be dealt with.

 

PS....

If I haven't read the classics, then I wouldn't have gone this far. Right....???

 

You are very humble. It's a virtue.

 

 

When the inner mind and body of a person become purified from contamination, it was said to be that a person has attained to a state with a true mind and true body.

 

In my opinion, there is a mistake here: even if you purify Xing and Ming, they won't merge, so it won't be possible to attain a true body and true mind. DCXM is not really applied at this stage, it has to be done before.

[ChiDragon]

You are very humble. It's a virtue.

 

 

 

In my opinion, there is a mistake here: even if you purify Xing and Ming, they won't merge, so it won't be possible to attain a true body and true mind. DCXM is not really applied at this stage, it has to be done before.

Thanks!

 

Okay, I would fine tune my body with Chi Kung to make it more "true"......!!!

 

 

 

Edited to add:

Btw DCXM is the whole purifying process itself. It was applied before. Hence, there was no mistake on my part.

Edited December 12, 2013 by ChiDragon

[hamida]

So, what Neidan is all about?

Well, according to the definition of the DCXM, Neidan is the cultivation of the inner mind and the inner body. When the inner mind and body of a person become purified from contamination, it was said to be that a person has attained to a state with a true mind and true body. Hence, this person becomes a 真人(true person) without contaminant and that is why a highly cultivated Taoist priest was being addressed as.

 

真人(true person), in the sense you use this term, might have been equated with 聖人 by Jesuits in their attempt to make connection points between Catholic theology and Confucianism. Perhaps you may want to comment on this.

 

To convert China, the missionaries had to translate Christian cathechism into the Chinese language. It was not an easy task. The "pagans" they were trying to evangelize already had a sophisticated body of humanistic canonical writings, known as Classics as opposed to western religious scriptures. The Jesuits had to borrow much of the vocabulary from the Classics that they planned to displace. The term 聖人 was used to mean "saint" and 天 to denote "Heaven". To Christians, the opposite of saint is sinner and the opposite of Heaven is Hell. To the Chinese, however, there is no opposite of 聖人 and the closest opposite meaning is "ignorance" as in a lack of self-culitvation. Also, there is no exact equivalent Chinese concept of Hell other than the Buddhist term of 地狱 which means "earth prison".

 

China was not converted. No Jesuit ever set eyes on the Emperor who eventually banned all Christian missions. Language barrier was not the only difficulty to surmount then. Your translation of Quanchen Tao is "missionary work" in reverse: a Chinese outreach to foreigners. Perhaps, yours is a "fitting response" that is timely and appropriate (to quote Professor Du Weiming) in the present age of globilization as cultures merge.

[ChiDragon]

真人(true person), in the sense you use this term, might have been equated with 聖人 by Jesuits in their attempt to make connection points between Catholic theology and Confucianism. Perhaps you may want to comment on this.

 

真人(true person) is an esoteric term which is used by Chinese Taoists excluding all external meaning or influence. Most westerners were trying to over interpret the Chinese term by lumping different ideas and stuck into one term. That was how all the confusion begins.

 

This is an esoteric term for addressing a highly cultivated Taoist priest. A highly cultivated is not a 聖人. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been called a 真人(true person). If you are trying to introduce the Catholic and Confucianism thoughts to relate to the Taoist term, sorry, I think you are in a wrong place.

 

****** End of discussion *****

 

 

PS.....

No offense, I'm just trying to avoid confusing the issue here in the thread.

Edited December 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

No Jesuit ever set eyes on the Emperor who eventually banned all Christian missions. Language barrier was not the only difficulty to surmount then. Your translation of Quanchen Tao is "missionary work" in reverse: a Chinese outreach to foreigners. Perhaps, yours is a "fitting response" that is timely and appropriate (to quote Professor Du Weiming) in the present age of globilization as cultures merge.

 

You refer to The Rites Controversy... I think Jesuits were in court at the time... but whethe they set actual eyes on the emperor does not diminish their approval of the emperor.

 

Yes, the translation is but missionary work; a person attempting a translation without proper understanding of the other language. Now self-exiled to escape further questions...

[ChiDragon]

The purpose of this thread is really about DCXM. The definition of DCXM has been established here. If there was any alteration to its definition, then, it will invalidate the philosophy of the Quanzhen Tao(全真道). Why Xing Kung is so important to us? It is because the body is manipulated by the mind. Therefore, the mind must be fine tuned to keep its function to the peak.

The Chinese Taoists had sat up a four taboos as canon for the DCXM, 酒色財氣(alcohol, libido, wealth and temperament). These four criteria are inter reacting which effect the mind and the body, inversely, to their normal functions and development.

So far, the members had discussed many ways to cultivate the Ming Kung but not much in the Xing Kung department, so to speak. Since there were some confusions about the Quanzhen Tao(全真道) in some recent threads, perhaps we could have them cleared up, here, objectively. I think it would be more advantageous if we have spent more time in Xing Kung. Even though we don't have to be a Taoist, perhaps we may learn from that to have some mental self-discipline.

[dawei]

Let's dispense with the BS attempts to suggest you have any formal understanding, practice, or otherwise knowledge of Quanzhen methods...

 

The purpose of this thread is really about DCXM. The definition of DCXM has been established here.

 

So it in your own words. Clearly, in english. Explain it in A-B-C.

 

 

So far, the members had discussed many ways to cultivate the Ming Kung but not much in the Xing Kung department, so to speak. Since there were some confusions about the Quanzhen Tao(全真道) in some recent threads, perhaps we could have them cleared up, here, objectively. I think it would be more advantageous if we have spent more time in Xing Kung. Even though we don't have to be a Taoist, perhaps we may learn from that to have some mental self-discipline.

 

Just spell it out clearly.

 

What is Xing Kung vs Ming Kung. Explain each.

 

Which do you recommend based on your superior knowledge of Quanzhen practices.

 

Which first and why? What is the benefit of each?

 

Tell us in this thread yourself in your own words.

[ChiDragon]

To be honest, I knew no more than anyone of us until the translation was done.

Let's dispense with the BS attempts to suggest you have any formal understanding, practice, or otherwise knowledge of Quanzhen methods...

I am sorry, what do you mean by BS in the above statement?

Edited December 15, 2013 by ChiDragon