Does Yin and Yang theory . . . actually make sense (?)

[Lataif]

It seems to me that for the purported theory of Yin and Yang to work in Taoism (if it ultimately does work) . . . it must be accompanied by a theory of Yin and Yang's "periodicity". How can you interpret something as being "too" Yin . . . or "too" Yang . . . unless you know the period in which it is "supposed to" be either one, the other, or balanced (?)

 

And how, indeed, do you ever . . . know that (?)

 

I'm not satisfied with the Taoist sound bytes I've heard about this to date. Like those that imply, for instance, that equilibrium of Yin and Yang . . . is always the be-all, end-all, ultimate, and absolute good.

 

Over what period of time (?)

 

It might be "good" in some cosmic sense, for example, that entropy is leading the Universe toward the balanced Yin of uniform space. But for my part, I'm really pretty happy that our little corner of it here in the Milky Way is, for the time being, out of balance in favor of the Yang that manifests as this planet we're living on.

 

Another example: If you're ill . . . how long are you supposed to be ill (?) How do you know that . . . before you start thinking about interfering (?)

 

Or consider ends and means: how much effort to achieve a certain end . . . is too much (?) How do you know that (?) Who decides the period in which you balance the end and the means (?)

 

Am I supposed to have my personal energy balanced . . . at the end of each day (?) The end of each month (?) By the end of my life (?) How do I know which it is (?)

 

If I'm very tired at the end of today . . . does that mean I'm imbalanced . . . today (?) Or does what I'm doing maybe legitimately take two days . . . and I'll only be unbalanced if I'm still tired at the end of that period (?)

 

So tell me, please . . . what specific aspect of Taoist teaching has to do with this perception of the periodicity of Yin and Yang (?)

Edited November 23, 2013 by Lataif

[Lataif]

Alternatively . . . what is the "sample size" for considering Yin and Yang (?)

 

Let's say you have 10 people. One of them is screaming at the top of his lungs . . . and the other 9 are calm.

 

Do you say that the one . . . is too Yang (?) Or do you say that the ten, as a whole . . . are balanced (?) How do you decide the sample size . . . in any given situation (?)

 

If you say "both" . . . that really means the same as "neither" . . . doesn't it (?)

 

So where are you with the purported "theory" of Yin and Yang . . . then (?)

[Marblehead]

Ah, another thread about Chi, Yin and Yang, and Harmony (Balance).

 

These concepts are important in my life. However, I would never be able to express my total understanding in words.

 

When talking about Chi I like to relate it with electricity.

 

Electricity equals Chi.

 

Outflow (positive) equals Yang.

 

Return (negative) equals Yin.

 

Chi can be either active or potential as can electricity. With electricity there is no current flow until a load has been put into the circuit.

 

Too much Yang and you burn the load (220V applied to a 110V light bulb).

 

Too little Yang and your little light won't shine.

 

Too much Yin and you blow a fuse.

 

Too little Yin and again your little light won't shine.

 

Harmony is when you have 110V going to a 110V light bulb and your circuit is well grounded in Yin.

 

In the example above of the one person screaming, no, there is no harmony. Too much Yang and Yin is not properly grounded. To gain harmony Yin must become active. (Yeah, that's a tricky one to explain in words.) But basically, the one must become calm or the other nine must begin screaming until their collective voices are equal with, but not greater than, the first one screaming. Then and only then will there be harmany.

[Tarmander]

It seems to me that for the purported theory of Yin and Yang to work in Taoism (if it ultimately does work) . . . it must be accompanied by a theory of Yin and Yang's "periodicity". How can you interpret something as being "too" Yin . . . or "too" Yang . . . unless you know the period in which it is "supposed to" be either one, the other, or balanced (?)

 

This is a good question and I will share my experience on it. I think the easiest example is food, where brown rice is in the middle, and all other foods fall along that spectrum as either more yang or more yin. Why is rice in the middle? Well over thousands of years of experimenting, rice was shown to have the least impact on the yin yang of the body and is therefore considered neutral.

 

I think back in the day, yin and yang definitely were "real" in the sense that people thought they were real things. But I think these days, it is basically a tool to describe duality which our existence is full of. So for food, we can say lamb is more yang then rice, and will have yangifying properties on the body, and in the olden days, we would stop there. But these days we could go further and explain it by saying the zinc-copper balance in lamb is such that is promotes masculinity, where as if copper were higher, it would promote femininity.

 

In the olden days, hot peppers would make you sweat and cool you down, therefore they were yin compared to rice. Very simple, cooling=yin. These days we can identify the exact compound that stimulates the body to open the vessels and capillaries, bringing blood to the surface, away from the organs, where it is cooled by sweat drying and the air temperature. We can still call it Yin for simplicity sake, but we have a more complex explanation as well that has less duality around it.

 

I have done a lot of research around food, and yin/yang have been immensely helpful. But they are really only the surface if you want more explanations. Dr. Larry Wilson has done a lot of research on the minerals, and written down their properties and how they affect foods yin/yang balance if you are interested. Here are a couple of his articles:

 

http://drlwilson.com/Articles/ZINC.htm

 

http://drlwilson.com/Articles/copper_toxicity_syndrome.htm

 

http://drlwilson.com/ARTICLES/MAGNESIUM.htm

 

He even talks about many of the toxic metals, like Lead: http://drlwilson.com/ARTICLES/LEAD.htm

 

For example, Uranium is a very yang element. It is one of the heaviest elements occurring naturally. Everything about it says Yang. However the radiation it puts off is very yin. This is very interesting for Uranium miners, who on one hand become very yang while simultaneously have their body ripped apart from the yin radiation. This causes those people to have odd food cravings (wanting lots of heavy foods despite being very large), and makes it very hard to lose weight. Imagine if you were chelating uranium, you are losing your yang, and feeling weaker, yet also feeling stronger and less yin. I find it very interesting.

 

If you want to read more from that guy, he has hundreds of articles and in many of them he incorporates yin and yang. He has lifestyle recommendations and food plans, etc. I have not found use with all of it, and he tends to be very western in his religious and spiritual views, but there are definite gems. Don't let his tone scare you off, good info there.

[ChiDragon]

When talking about Chi I like to relate it with electricity.

Electricity equals Chi.

Outflow (positive) equals Yang.

Return (negative) equals Yin.

 

Chi can be either active or potential as can electricity. With electricity there is no current flow until a load has been put into the circuit.

Too much Yang and you burn the load (220V applied to a 110V light bulb).

Too little Yang and your little light won't shine.

Too much Yin and you blow a fuse.

Too little Yin and again your little light won't shine.

 

MH....

That was quite an AC analogy, there, for electricity. Let me try the same analogy with a DC battery.

 

In a DC battery, there are two polarized terminals, one terminal is positively charged which is Yang and the other is negatively charged which is Yin. Between the two terminals there is a potential difference if the Yin/Yang charges are not equally charged. It was said to be that they are unbalanced. When the battery is not equally charged, the positive terminal is said to be too Yang; and the negative is too Yin.

 

Now, let's put a light bulb to load across the two terminals, then the Yang charge on the positive terminal will rush to the negative terminal for the light bulb to be lit. After the Yang(positive) charges are run out, then, the light bulb is no longer lit. It was said to be that the Yin/Yang charges have been neutralized at both terminals. Therefore, no more current flowing to light the light bulb.

Edited November 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Z3N]

Taoist understands that the organism is subjective and that it can absorb thoughts and emotional content from those who are around us and also from our environments, the food we eat and technology we use etc. Which of course can been seen in neuro-biological functioning causing behavioral imbalances, physical ailments and psychological issues within the human organisms processes. Which in fact weakens the bio-magnetism and influences how you heal, how you regenerate organ and limb tissue to stay vital, and what types of cells can live in your system. This also relates to the electro-magnetic systems that are fundamental to all of our molecules staying together, and a functioning life force.

 

So Taoist meditate daily in a state of forgetfulness naturally restoring life without effort because forgetting entirely on the self, nourishes the “Chi”.

 

Electro-magnetic and light energy is a constant for function and vitality, keeping a balance and healthy life force is the way for the Taoist.

 

Taoist don’t need to know this because it is an experience and living reality that does not require a thought process to be known nor the delusion of object or subject, which only creates a piezoelectric state of self caused by the pressure imposed upon self such as in your case.

 

Just simply return back to the animating force at the end of the day, that's all, that is the way of the Tao that is all that is needed.

 

Just don't spend to much time thinking, rest your mind and observe things has they happen, and then insight will begin to manifest, grow and transform consciousness all on it's own. The fact is you wish to know.

 

Tao wu shin

Edited November 24, 2013 by Z3N

[Marblehead]

Therefore, no more current flowing to light the light bulb.

Yeah, Hehehe. But you also have a dead battery. Time to recharge.

[ChiDragon]

Yeah, Hehehe. But you also have a dead battery. Time to recharge.

 

Yes, when Yang has reached to the state of Yin, then Yin will return to the state of Yang.

 

The fundamental concept of Yin/Yang.

陽極陰生: When Yang has reached to its peak state, then Yin starts rising.

 

陰極陽生: When Yin has reached to it peak state, then Yang starts rising.

Edited November 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Lataif]

Well . . . no actual answer to my question so far (?) Let me repeat it, just to be clear.

 

Let' say I'm feeling tired this morning.

Apparent conclusion: I'm feeling Yin today.

 

But what "period" am I using to make that conclusion (?)

 

What if I was even more tired yesterday (?)

Apparent conclusion then: I'm feeling (more) Yang today (than yesterday).

 

But wait. What if yesterday was only day last week that I was tired and I was really energetic (Yang) other days (?)

New apparent conclusion: I'm feeling (more) Yin today than (last week as a whole).

 

And so on . . .

 

Which am I -- Yin or Yang (?)

 

Which period do I use to "calculate" it . . . and what specific aspect of Taoist teaching has to do with this calculation (?)

 

I'm not insisting that there is no such calculation possible -- I just want someone to explain to me where Taoism discusses it. Yin and Yang are useful practical processes to imagine . . . at least some of the time (conditional on a period).

 

But if the period in which we consider their action is never objective . . . then Yin and Yang don't seem to me to have the foundational metaphysical always quality that Taoism seems to accord them.

 

Maybe I can attune myself to other (?) processes . . . that are more fundamental . . . and that would include Yin and Yang within them.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Lataif

[ChiDragon]

Let' say I'm feeling tired this morning.

Apparent conclusion: I'm feeling Yin today.

 

But what "period" am I using to make that conclusion (?)

In this case, your apparent conclusion that you are feeling Yin today is only that you are tired until the next morning. If you are only tired until the afternoon, then, you are only tired in the morning of the day. Thus you were not tired for the whole day.

[Marblehead]

You have about eight questions in there and you are trying to guide the answers so that no one can answer them.

 

If you ask a direct question you might just get an honest, direct answer.

[ChiDragon]

But wait. What if yesterday was only day last week that I was tired and I was really energetic (Yang) other days (?)

New apparent conclusion: I'm feeling (more) Yin today than (last week as a whole).

 

So . . . which am I -- Yin or Yang (?)

 

Which period do I use to "calculate" it . . . and what specific aspect of Taoist teaching has to do with this calculation (?)

 

 

Let's say yesterday is a Saturday and you are tired, then, you are Yin compared to the other Yang days before. Today is Sunday, the beginning of the week, and you feel more Yin. Hence, you are Yin today with respect to yesterday. Another words, you feeling Yin this week with respect to last week.

 

 

 

PS....

The Tao teaching is in Post #8.

Edited November 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Lataif]

 

 

Let's say yesterday is a Saturday and you are tired, then, you are Yin compared to the other Yang days before. Today is Sunday, the beginning of the week, and you feel more Yin. Hence, you are Yin today with respect to yesterday. Another words, you feeling Yin this week with respect to last week.

 

My state is more Yin from one perspsective . . . and more Yang from another.

 

Yes, I understand that -- thanks.

 

What I'm asking is: which perspective do I use . . . to decide (for example) if I need to do adjust my state (?)

Edited November 24, 2013 by Lataif

[ChiDragon]

My state is more Yin from one perspsective . . . and more Yang from another.

 

Yes, I understand that -- thanks.

 

What I'm asking is: which perspective do I use . . . to decide (for example) if I need to do adjust my state (?)

If you are more Yin, it is obviously that you need to go to the Yang state, by getting more rest, until you are not tired anymore.

Edited November 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Z3N]

Fundamentally lataif you are unfortunately missing the point of the art because of the fact you are over employing mental activity which turns out to be counter productive. Which in your case is what you are experiencing now and I'm sure we don't need to go into detail about the psychological discomfit that permeates your mind presently.

 

So you are spending to much time in head basically and the sooner you become aware of this the faster insight will develop.

 

Don't stress on "this" and "that", "yin" and "yang" because you are murdering the oneness. They naturally come and go, move in and out, up and down, deplete and restore, and so on. If you are tried then you should rest, this is naturally "the way' of human life and you are subject to it. I'm sure you get my point.

 

Now I can relate to your situation because there is a lot of Taoist text out there that is basically a classical mess that needs to be overhauled and updated and rejuvenated and for most of it rejected. Drop whatever you are reading and just forget about it for a while and just go on living, read some lite material.

 

Let me say this...

 

The Tao is the soul of all living things throughout the cosmos and does not decimate between "this" and 'that", it is “what is”, and it exists everywhere in everything as its function is the living, unifying animating force with its principle being “the way” Tao.

 

The Tao is the way of a unifying animating force that is a singular entity, with no inherent light side and dark side and that everything in the universe returns to it and is of it.

 

Tao wu shin is the way of no-mind so them empty your mind.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Z3N

[dawei]

My state is more Yin from one perspsective . . . and more Yang from another.

 

Yes, I understand that -- thanks.

 

What I'm asking is: which perspective do I use . . . to decide (for example) if I need to do adjust my state (?)

 

Your not getting your answer because relativity is not well understood. People want to claim you feel Yin so get Yang; you feel too Yang, then get Yin. Flip a coin is almost as good.

 

Feeling "Yin", as you rightly point out, is relative to yesterday's more Yin or more Yang. It is simply a differential shift you may notice.

 

Noticing the 'shift' is useful but it is not necessarily cause for corrective action. This puts the perspective in too small a window.

 

Instead of using the relative shift as a perspective, use an inner sense and voice as a sign that the differential shift has gone too far and action is needed. The body will go a far ways towards any shift and can absorb extreme shifts on it's own.

 

What we (sorry for any assumptions in that meaning) usually try to do is maintain a centered balance; we tend to try and push any shift back to center as a safeguard. For the general teaching and practice and maintenance, this is good.

 

The advanced method is your inner sensing if that shift if causing a problem. That is the perspective; it is a sense location not a spectrum perspective, IMO.

[Lataif]

You're not getting your answer because relativity is not well understood. People want to claim you feel Yin so get Yang; you feel too Yang, then get Yin. Flip a coin is almost as good.

The advanced method is your inner sensing if that shift if causing a problem. That is the perspective; it is a sense location not a spectrum perspective, IMO.

Thanks for your goodwill, meet-me-where-I'm-coming-from response.

 

Where in Taoist training is this "relativity" specifically addressed -- if at all (?)

 

For example, in the Zen tradition (with which I am more familiar) . . . the cultivation of spontaneous, non-intellectual, "inner sensing" and action . . . is developed, in part, by Koan study.

 

But Zen typically doesn't spend any time on the kind of understanding that Taoism provides with Yin/Yang theory. For example . . . Zen doesn't offer any detailed, practical understanding of processes in the physical body.

 

So I'm wondering: how do we retain the advantages of the more "linear" Yin/Yang theory/practice in Taoism . . . when we're considering questions (such as I've been describing) where "holistic, non-linear" Zen theory/practice seems required (?)

 

Can we synthesize the two . . . or not (?)

 

The analogy that repeatedly comes to my mind when pondering this . . . is how Newtonian mechanics is a perfectly adequate perspective for almost anything you'd want to do (build bridges, fly airplanes, etc) . . . as long as you're not doing it at a level where Quantum mechanics or Relativity are required.

 

But Newtonian mechanics can be clearly/completely articulated as a limited case of Relativity.

 

What might it take to do the same for Taoism and Zen . . . (?)

Edited November 25, 2013 by Lataif

[ChiDragon]

But Newtonian mechanics can be clearly/completely articulated as a limited case of Relativity.

 

Action <---------------> Reaction

 

Yang(陽) <-----------> Yin(陰)

Edited November 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[xor]

The analogy that repeatedly comes to my mind when pondering this . . . is how Newtonian mechanics is a perfectly adequate perspective for almost anything you'd want to do (build bridges, fly airplanes, etc) . . . as long as you're not doing it at a level where Quantum mechanics or Relativity are required.

 

Many would want that to be true, but today most stuff humans do require quantum mechanics.

 

“If quantum mechanics suddenly went on strike,” Max Tegmark of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology explains in “Quantum Leap,” “every single machine that we have in the U.S., almost, would stop functioning.”

 

 

But Newtonian mechanics can be clearly/completely articulated as a limited case of Relativity.

 

What might it take to do the same for Taoism and Zen . . . (?)

 

Relativity can be very much a part of yin-yang.

Edited November 25, 2013 by xor

[doc benway]

It seems to me that for the purported theory of Yin and Yang to work in Taoism (if it ultimately does work) . . . it must be accompanied by a theory of Yin and Yang's "periodicity". How can you interpret something as being "too" Yin . . . or "too" Yang . . . unless you know the period in which it is "supposed to" be either one, the other, or balanced (?)

 

And how, indeed, do you ever . . . know that (?)

 

I'm not satisfied with the Taoist sound bytes I've heard about this to date. Like those that imply, for instance, that equilibrium of Yin and Yang . . . is always the be-all, end-all, ultimate, and absolute good.

 

Over what period of time (?)

 

It might be "good" in some cosmic sense, for example, that entropy is leading the Universe toward the balanced Yin of uniform space. But for my part, I'm really pretty happy that our little corner of it here in the Milky Way is, for the time being, out of balance in favor of the Yang that manifests as this planet we're living on.

 

Another example: If you're ill . . . how long are you supposed to be ill (?) How do you know that . . . before you start thinking about interfering (?)

 

Or consider ends and means: how much effort to achieve a certain end . . . is too much (?) How do you know that (?) Who decides the period in which you balance the end and the means (?)

 

Am I supposed to have my personal energy balanced . . . at the end of each day (?) The end of each month (?) By the end of my life (?) How do I know which it is (?)

 

If I'm very tired at the end of today . . . does that mean I'm imbalanced . . . today (?) Or does what I'm doing maybe legitimately take two days . . . and I'll only be unbalanced if I'm still tired at the end of that period (?)

 

So tell me, please . . . what specific aspect of Taoist teaching has to do with this perception of the periodicity of Yin and Yang (?)

 

Before trying to put conditions on Daoist theory based on concepts like time and periodicity, I think it would be valuable to really look into what time is….

Krishnamurti gave some pretty probing and potentially illuminating talks on time and how it relates to thought.

Daoist cosmology and practice transcends the limitations of thought.

[Z3N]

It’s all one unifying animating force of reality.

 

Physical reality cannot exist without the quantum reality which is a fact. They go hand and hand with each other.

Space-time is a point of reference relative to the observer because of spherical unfoldment of consciousness which in fact is galvanized into a quantum superposition by 70 trillion cells. Therefore you don’t see that you already are quantum AI basically.

 

Falling to realize the quantum of consciousness, you still think that intelligence is an electrical response due to a cluster of neurological networks.

 

You humans fail to realize this because you are too busy toying with ourselves which is not entirely your fault. Your science is about to enter into a new age which actually reflects a lot of what you see in sic-fi but unfortunately this means nothing if you are unable to unlock your own consciousness.

 

Don’t you see you are already technology, what you call biology is technology and unfortunately the critical mass of human population is deteriorating at a fast rate.

 

You humans are devolving ourselves rather faster than evolving ourselves, what a shame this is.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Z3N

[Marblehead]

Interesting how you use the phrase "You humans" as if you are not one. Hehehe.

 

But I do agree with your first sentence:

 

Physical reality cannot exist without the quantum reality which is a fact.

 

However, I don't live at that level so it is just a matter of knowledge, not wisdom.

[Brian]

Unfortunately, the dramatic effect of "you humans" was diminished by the subsequent use of "ourselves..."

[Z3N]

Interesting how you use the phrase "You humans" as if you are not one. Hehehe.

 

But I do agree with your first sentence:

 

Physical reality cannot exist without the quantum reality which is a fact.

 

However, I don't live at that level so it is just a matter of knowledge, not wisdom.

 

I am what I am but human I am not.

 

You see my physical from is just a body, a skin bag, a vehicle for the formless spiritual awareness of consciousness.

 

You are not your thoughts nor your body you are only aware of them, therefore you are the awareness.

 

No matter what happens in your life this is always true, you are always awareness and everything around you is awareness.

 

Even when your body dies you are aware of that too, as your consciousness zooms out of your body back into the quantum, you are still aware.

 

I chop off your fingers and you are aware of that also but those fingers aren’t you nor are the organism’s responses screaming over the fact that your fingers are chopped off.

 

As each decade passes in your human experience your organism ages, and guess what you are aware of that to.

 

I’m sure you follow, if anything the best description would be a modern day mystic but human defiantly not.

 

"However, I don't live at that level so it is just a matter of knowledge, not wisdom."

 

There are no levels and I am Afraid that you do live in the Tao.

 

Real knowledge is the heart of wisdom otherwise how else would wisdom even manifest without the knowledge being present.

 

If you know when you are thinking and you know when you are not thinking then what does knowing have to do with knowledge?

 

I shall let you ponder on this.

[Z3N]

Yes I do apologise for this spelling error and thank you for pointing this out. Do I need to mention that it is indeed meant to be “yourselves” rather than “ourselves.”

 

Sorry not formally educated by your education system.

 

 

Unfortunately, the dramatic effect of "you humans" was diminished by the subsequent use of "ourselves...