Yin chi number 3

[BaguaKicksAss]

So the character of Kosta Danos was a "literary construct designed for a particular market", surprise surprise. I wonder what else was constructed under artistic licence of the author

 

Personally I sooo don't care (regarding any authors for that matter). I try stuff, if it works it works, if it doesn't it doesn't . Though I'm odd I also personally don't give a rat's ass if superpowers are included or not, not immortality nor... well OK making my Bagua more awesome is always good lol.

 

Edit: of course I guess the fact I try not to learn from books most of the time could be relevant as well .

[dawei]

The deconstruction of objects into words leaves some debating the words and forgetting the original object.

 

This silliness plays out because the debate sees only it's side and not the other. The coin face thinks it is far superior to the coin backside.

 

The Emperor's New Clothes.

[dawei]

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

Last time I was in Costco, they had an entire skid of this stuff!

[dawei]

Last time I was in Costco, they had an entire skid of this stuff!

 

Yes... And when the bearings have grease, it is wheeled around much easier

[dawei]

(deleted to consolidate posts)

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(deleted to consolidate posts)

 

(deleted to consolidate posts)

You can't win so feel free to resort to saying silliness like:

1. Kosta and Jim made it all up to sell books.

2. You are a spammer.

3. My teacher is right because he says so.



___________________________



No one ever told me I MUST be grounded with a metal wire.


This was suggested as an alternative to sitting on the ground for students who couldn't sit out side.

This came directly from Chang himself to his student Jim.





You can't feel yin chi, you can only feel it's effects on the yang chi in your body, at least not until both have been brought together.

Neither Kosta nor Jim were taught to go meditate ungrounded, then go sit on the dirt to compensate and absorb yin energy.

They were taught it was necessary to be grounded during meditation to absorb yin chi as yang chi was gathered.







No you don't.

If an extremely dense field of yin were present you might feel the interaction of it with your consciousness, maybe. You can't experience it directly however. When Kosta had his body pumped full of of yin he described it thus:


















Just because there is water in the desert doesn't mean you will necessarily be drinking any of it.

You will absorb an equal amount of yin chi if grounded during meditation, if ungrounded during meditation you won't.

Students were not taught to go poke their fingers in the ground or sit on the dirt AFTER meditation, that is not what was taught. Were it that simple that's what they would have been instructed to do.

You also can't get yin energy while ungrounded that means sitting on insulating materials sitting on the ground or up in the sky in an airplane.

I don't care what your other teacher has to say about it.

If he thinks this is the case he is obviously not talking about the same thing mo pai is.

End of discussion.






___________________________












The claim is being made that yin chi is the same for all systems.

The claim is being made that yin chi can be felt in a waking state of consciousness.

The claim is being made that yin chi can be absorbed ungrounded in an airplane.

All of these are false.

Now perhaps in the context of SM yin chi does those things, but it most certainly cannot be the same thing mo pai is describing as yin chi.

As to consolidating posts, I am not sure what other option there is. I was told to combine all my posts in a thread together not to address things point by point. So that's what I am doing till some admin says otherwise.







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Well Harmonious Emptiness if you will go back to post 49:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32412-can-the-practice-of-stillness-movement-add-to-your-martial-arts-ability/page-4#entry498139


Ya Mu's blog post on the nature of yin chi was brought into this discussion, and several before that have asked question about yin and yang chi.


This is something that is very important, as in this post he is claiming verbatim he claiming every energy all schools call yin energy is the same.


I am pointing out by definition this cannot be true.


If this discussion isn't appropriate then the thread needs to be split and all the posts about yin and yang chi from everyone green tiger, surfing buddha, johnc, myself need to be moved to that thread.

As to trying to purge myself, no that's not my intention.

I was told to combine my posts, so that's what I am doing.

You guy's don't like many small replies, you don't like one big reply.

I think you you guys should make up your minds on what it is you want to complain about.

This is an issue that is extremely important to me.



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What on earth are you talking about?




___________________________






























What is known:

Mo pai defines yin chi as an energy that comes from the earth itself, and requires being electrically grounded during meditation to absorb it.

It cannot be felt till yin and yang are brought together, as our minds are yang energy only, it can only be felt as the indirect interaction created between the two.


So things like flying in an airplane and absorbing yin chi sitting on a plastic seat and being able to feel yin chi are not possible.

This is not an opinion, this is how it is being defined.


Now I will give you that SM may be working with something, what I don't know.

If it is perceptible in normal awareness, and can be gathered 30,000 feet up in an air plane ungrounded on a plastic seat however it cannot by definition be the same thing mo pai is discussing.

That's how it is.

This is not an opinion.


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If you sit on a grounded surface, yin chi will automatically be gathered while you gather yang. Neither Jim nor Kosta were taught to meditate ungrounded THEN go sit on a grounded surface to compensate.















































Neither Kosta nor Jim were taught to go do meditation on an ungrounded surface then go sit out on the dirt to compensate.

What was taught was that yin chi cannot be felt till yin and yang are brought together, as the human consciousness itself is pure yang energy, and yin energy can only be felt indirectly by the interactions it causes with the yang chi of your consciousness until both yin and yang energy have been brought together.

I was told verbatim should I attempt to meditate ungrounded that that time spend in ungrounded meditation would need to be repeated in full while grounded as I would develop incorrectly.

Yin chi is gathered in meditation while grounded, it is not gathered while ungrounded, and you can't go poke your finger in the dirt or sit on the ground afterward and compensate that is not what was taught.

You also cannot gather yin chi on an airplane ungrounded mid flight.













































































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Yes.




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Your comment is incorrect. This is very much black and white, there is zero gray area to explore.


Let me give you an example:


System X, taught by master Y, defines subject Z as:








System A, with master B, defines subject Z as:





System A, with master B states that System X, taught by master Y both are indeed referring to same subject Z and that subject Z as both describe it are the same thing.




___________________________






























That is not the case as the energy precisely and accurately defined by mo pai as yin chi, does not have the same characteristics as the energy he is describing as yin chi.

What they describe isn't the same, as much as you would like it to be.



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He's a good guy, but he makes blanket statements like:










































































This stands in direct contradiction to the very definition of yin chi as defined in mo pai.

No ifs, ands, or buts.

So either he is wrong, or JC and the mo pai school is.

I think the most likely scenario is that what he describes as earth or yin energy isn't the same thing JC and the mo pai school call yin energy.

He is describing something else altogether.

 

 

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

First off, tech is not a mod position whatsoever, so I'm posting as a member (I like to point this out so folks don't think it's a command from the office or something).

 

But uhm, OK so MPG's posts are getting on your nerves, but I have to say that replying to each of his posts just makes it worse! (This can also be said for a current thread also residing in the pit). I'm pretty sure if no one replied to his posts in partciular, he'd just stop (no offense MPG).

 

In the other thread, well that made more sense... but again in this one?

 

PS hopefully it will be uhm moved soon...

[dawei]

First off, tech is not a mod position whatsoever, so I'm posting as a member (I like to point this out so folks don't think it's a command from the office or something).

 

But uhm, OK so MPG's posts are getting on your nerves, but I have to say that replying to each of his posts just makes it worse! (This can also be said for a current thread also residing in the pit). I'm pretty sure if no one replied to his posts in partciular, he'd just stop (no offense MPG).

 

In the other thread, well that made more sense... but again in this one?

 

PS hopefully it will be uhm moved soon...

 

Actually, the posts are not getting on my nerves... but the stupidity of consolidating against all common sense is causing me to laugh out load in replies. How someone can hide behind the idea that the "mods told him to do this" is now on the moderator's shoulders.

 

And, this is not a thread anymore... What H.E. started was bastardized with the merge. The split of the other thread should of been pitted... now we have a thread without direction, except the pit.

 

I actually agree with MPG basic idea that what JC talks of Yin Qi is probably not the same as everyone else.... but it is not my mission in life to spread that word in every possible thread who questions it. That becomes an obsession at some point.

 

And to them make up ideas like:

 

1. Kosta and Jim made it all up to sell books.

 

2. You are a spammer.

 

3. My teacher is right because he says so.

 

well... that is too funny... if that is in his head as an idea, then I am just laughing even more. I wonder how an obsession to defend an idea then turns to made-up stories. Sad to see this in an original idea which may have some merit but when people cannot articulate the idea meaningfully they will resort to stories.

[Mal]

People can try to be helpful (which seems to be the intent of TTB) or they can try to be a hindrance.

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

Actually, the posts are not getting on my nerves... but the stupidity of consolidating against all common sense is causing me to laugh out load in replies. How someone can hide behind the idea that the "mods told him to do this" is now on the moderator's shoulders.

 

And, this is not a thread anymore... What H.E. started was bastardized with the merge. The split of the other thread should of been pitted... now we have a thread without direction, except the pit.

 

I actually agree with MPG basic idea that what JC talks of Yin Qi is probably not the same as everyone else.... but it is not my mission in life to spread that word in every possible thread who questions it. That becomes an obsession at some point.

 

And to them make up ideas like:

 

1. Kosta and Jim made it all up to sell books.

 

2. You are a spammer.

 

3. My teacher is right because he says so.

 

well... that is too funny... if that is in his head as an idea, then I am just laughing even more. I wonder how an obsession to defend an idea then turns to made-up stories. Sad to see this in an original idea which may have some merit but when people cannot articulate the idea meaningfully they will resort to stories.

 

I just merged the posts with the thread HM started for the yin qi debate to go into... I'd be very happy to pit it though if a couple of mods agree on it (fortunately there are 2 in this thread)... or hell you guys can pit it if you like.

 

Edit: or even one mod, or even a steward...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

MGP said:

 

"No one ever told me I MUST be grounded with a metal wire."

 

Huge contradiction to what you've said over and over.


"This was suggested as an alternative to sitting on the ground for students who couldn't sit out side."

 

Also a huge contradiction to what you've said over and over.

 

"This came directly from Chang himself to his student Jim.
You can't feel yin chi, you can only feel it's effects on the yang chi in your body, at least not until both have been brought together."

 

What's the difference? Feeling one way or feeling another way! lol. It's "feeling" it, which you have said is impossible, over and over, "no ifs ands, or buts," and used this narrow distinction as a reason to persistently try to discredit someone elses knowledge to the point of interrupting every conversation related to them.

 

So Mo Pai doesn't teach how to connect to the Earth without touching it. Fine. No biggie. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

Maybe you need to be more directly connected to develop Mo Pai Rainbow Body, but that doesn't mean anything for other practices. Thus, you're methods are not an authority on how people can or cannot contact yin chi.

[BaguaKicksAss]

*hands MPG a whole pile of [[[[[[[[['s*

[dawei]

I just merged the posts with the thread HM started for the yin qi debate to go into... I'd be very happy to pit it though if a couple of mods agree on it (fortunately there are 2 in this thread)... or hell you guys can pit it if you like.

 

Edit: or even one mod, or even a steward...

 

I know... and we're just chatting for the most part.

 

IMO, with the situation I see here, a tech needs to have the same powers as a mod so they don't need mod permission... there appears to be so much delegation and separation of power that it doesn't make complete sense... otherwise, there would be a sufficient number of mods to do what needs to be done. This thread alone shows a major problem.

 

Your stepping back in and helping is appreciated.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Oh I can do all the same things in the tech sense a mod can, but cannot make mod decisions (even a sole mod can't). The main reason a tech shouldn't make mod decisions is to prevent burnout. Well that and I have realized that the job of mod for me personally doesn't go so well, I'm one of those want to be extra strict kinda folks heh....

 

Now being able to decide on my own what do to with mopai threads would be kinda cool heh (pit pit pit pit pit pit pit) lol

[BaguaKicksAss]

ROFL

 

Though I'm SURE 2-3 posts per thread would be OK instead of just one .

 

PS the OCD tech would like permission to edit SOME BLANK MILE LONG SPACES out of your last post?

[BaguaKicksAss]

[BaguaKicksAss]

While we are waiting for a second mod to confirm the pitting of the above thread, the tech team (me) would like to entertain you all with some nice music

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: SPOILER FEATURE :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

 

Feel free to use it many many times and often!

 

(so not quoting that entire long post heh, nice move though MPG)

[BaguaKicksAss]

[BaguaKicksAss]

I personally kinda like this version below

 

*Hands MPG Notepad++*

 

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: SPOILER FEATURE :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

 

Feel free to use it many many times and often!

 

(so not quoting that entire long post heh, nice move though MPG)

 

I tweaked it a little, I took out the quotes below the spoiler so I can use them again above it. Seems to be a bit better of a solution.

 

 

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"*hands MPG a whole pile of [[[[[[[[['s*"

Edit: I took the quotes off the material below the spoiler line where archived replies are staying, seems to free up some quote space so perhaps this is fixed temporarily.

 

 

 

 

___________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MGP said:

 

"No one ever told me I MUST be grounded with a metal wire."

 

Huge contradiction to what you've said over and over.

 

Zero contradiction. 100% oversight on your behalf. If you feel otherwise go find and quote me on it.

 

You must be grounded to the earth no exceptions is what I've said. That could be via a grounding wire or sitting in the dirt. You pick. The grounding wire suggestion was given for those who couldn't sit on the ground outside.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"This was suggested as an alternative to sitting on the ground for students who couldn't sit out side."

 

Also a huge contradiction to what you've said over and over.

 

Zero contradiction. 100% oversight on your behalf. If you feel otherwise go find and quote me on it.

 

You must be grounded to the earth no exceptions is what I've said. That could be via a grounding wire or sitting in the dirt. You pick. The grounding wire suggestion was given for those who couldn't sit on the ground outside.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"This came directly from Chang himself to his student Jim.

That is correct.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can't feel yin chi, you can only feel it's effects on the yang chi in your body, at least not until both have been brought together."

 

What's the difference?

As you meditate you will not be feeling yin chi move in your body. Perhaps in an insanely powerful field of yin were present like chang injecting you full of yin energy you would feel distended like your bladder is being squeezed and fullness inside your body, you would not feel a cold rush or energetic movement in your body as yin chi poured in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Feeling one way or feeling another way! lol. It's "feeling" it, which you have said is impossible, over and over

 

 

No it isn't.

 

You can't directly feel a yin field any more than you can directly see a magnetic field.

 

 

You can't see a magnetic field unless you have a medium to interact with it like a ferrofluid or iron filings.

 

If an extremely dense yin field were present you'd get a similar reaction from the yang chi in your body which you can feel and perceive.

 

You won't be feeling yin chi directly till the two are brought together in your body however.

 

Perhaps in the deepest depths of meditation you might get a glimpse of it, but even that is most likely indirect perception.

 

I quoted kosta when he was injected with a huge amount of yin chi, and his experience earlier. You must have missed it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Suddenly I felt like I was being pumped up with air. I could feel my belly distending and my bladder being squeezed; I wanted to pee. There was no other sensation; no cold, no rush of energy, no electrical discharge, nothing. Just the feeling of fullness."

 

-The Magus of Java p111

 

 

 

"no ifs ands, or buts,"

That is correct.

So Mo Pai doesn't teach how to connect to the Earth without touching it. Fine. No biggie.

Mo pai teaches the nature of yin energy, if you aren't grounded to the earth you aren't going to be absorbing it, at least not what they are calling yin energy.

 

That is how it is.

 

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

It doesn't happen. If people think they can feel yin chi, and absorb it in an airplane mid flight ungrounded, it's absolutely certain they are not describing the same energy mo pai calls yin chi.

 

That's how it is.

 

 

Thus, you're methods are not an authority on how people can or cannot contact yin chi.

We aren't talking methods we are talking the very nature of an energy that is being defined.

 

SM=

Yin energy can be felt directly by a normal human consciousness which has not brought together yin and yang energies

 

Yin energy can be collected ungrounded

 

Yin energy can be collected mid flight on a plastic seat

 

Electrical insulators DO NOT block the flow of yin chi

 

 

MP=

 

Electrical insulators DO block the flow of yin energy

 

Yin energy cannot be collected mid flight on a plastic airplane seat

 

Yin energy cannot be gathered ungrounded.

 

Yin energy cannot be felt directly by a normal human consciousness which has not brought together yin and yang energies

 

 

 

 

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out these guys aint talkin bout the same thing here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

___________________________

 

"Actually, the posts are not getting on my nerves... but the stupidity of consolidating against all common sense is causing me to laugh out load in replies. How someone can hide behind the idea that the "mods told him to do this" is now on the moderator's shoulders."

 

I agree 1000%. The rules were changed and this ultimatum was handed down. I was told to combine my posts, so that's how it will have to be.

 

Personally I think replying in small nugget sized replies makes the most sense, however people complained till the rules were changed.

 

"And to them make up ideas like:

 

1. Kosta and Jim made it all up to sell books.

 

2. You are a spammer.

 

3. My teacher is right because he says so.

 

well... that is too funny... if that is in his head as an idea, then I am just laughing even more. I wonder how an obsession to defend an idea then turns to made-up stories. Sad to see this in an original idea which may have some merit but when people cannot articulate the idea meaningfully they will resort to stories.

 

Please see:

 

 

So the character of Kosta Danos was a "literary construct designed for a particular market", surprise surprise. I wonder what else was constructed under artistic licence of the author

 

As well as your own various comments on spam, and various comments in the various threads about Mr. Lomax's achievements as a teacher making him an authority on yin chi.

 

 

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img=http://cdn.clickwp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/spam-500x310.jpg

 

Hey I think it's dumb as well, but I was told to consolidate my posts from now on. You guys complained till the rules were changed, too many small bite sized posts were annoying, I think one big post is worse but that is what I was told to do. If it bothers you too much I would suggest the ignore feature.

 

 

 

 

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Previous replies contained in spoiler below:

 

 

 

 

 

 

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quote name="dawei" post="498641" timestamp="1385252342]

img=http://uploads4.wikipaintings.org/images/andy-warhol/spam.jpg

/quote]

You can't win so feel free to resort to saying silliness like:

 

1. Kosta and Jim made it all up to sell books.

 

2. You are a spammer.

 

3. My teacher is right because he says so.

 

 

 

___________________________

 

 

 

 

quote name="Harmonious Emptiness" post="498603" timestamp="1385246941"]

So which reliable source told you personally that you MUST be grounded with a metal wire?

 

/quote]

No one ever told me I MUST be grounded with a metal wire.

 

 

This was suggested as an alternative to sitting on the ground for students who couldn't sit out side.

 

This came directly from Chang himself to his student Jim.

 

 

 

 

quote name="Harmonious Emptiness" post="498603" timestamp="1385246941"]

Sitting down after standing practice is very grounding.

I can see how that would bring yin chi to the person immediately, and I've felt something similar.

/quote]

 

You can't feel yin chi, you can only feel it's effects on the yang chi in your body, at least not until both have been brought together.

 

Neither Kosta nor Jim were taught to go meditate ungrounded, then go sit on the dirt to compensate and absorb yin energy.

 

They were taught it was necessary to be grounded during meditation to absorb yin chi as yang chi was gathered.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You say that yin chi can only be felt through yang chi... when you develop yang chi, you feel chi, so when yin chi comes, you feel it happen.

/quote]

 

 

No you don't.

 

If an extremely dense field of yin were present you might feel the interaction of it with your consciousness, maybe. You can't experience it directly however. When Kosta had his body pumped full of of yin he described it thus:

 

 

 

 

quote]

I can show you what the yin is like, John said. Just a minute.

 

...

 

John came up behind me and pulled my shirt out of my pants. As with Handoko, he put a knuckle up against the small of my back, in the area of my kidneys.

 

Suddenly I felt like I was being pumped up with air. I could feel my belly distending and my bladder being squeezed; I wanted to pee. There was no other sensation; no cold, no rush of energy, no electrical discharge, nothing. Just the feeling of fullness.

 

...

 

Sifu, can we hold this yin energy you transfer to us inside our

bodies for long periods of time? I asked.

 

 

No. You can only keep as much yin as you have yang. When I

do a demonstration like this, the yin energy I give you leaches from

your body almost immediately. It is a waste of my own energy, which

I have to replenish by meditation.

 

 

So you dont like to do this very often.

 

 

Of course not. I did it for you students, so that you can under-

stand what the yin chi is like.

 

 

Thank you, Sifu, we all chimed in together.

 

 

...

 

I was silent for most of that evening. The existence of yin energy

as a phenomenon that was associated with the energy field of

our planet could possibly fill in many gaps in field theory in general.

What was it? John had said that its behavior was similar to that of an

electromagnetic field, that an insulator could block it, and that its

flow could be easily disrupted. How could any scientist characterize

a phenomenon he could not trace? And how could any scientist re-

sist such a challenge?

 

 

John had mentioned that a student had to be at least Level Three

to be able to sense the yin; that a human being, by his own nature

yang, cannot sense yin energy directly. Rather, a human senses the

presence of yin by its reaction to the yang. Here is an unidentified

force that leaves no trace of itself, that we cannot feel inside our own

bodies even in excess (unlike electricity, but perhaps like gravity),

but whose results I had witnessed, experienced, and felt.

 

 

The Magus of Java p114

/quote]

 

 

 

 

quote name="Harmonious Emptiness" post="498603" timestamp="1385246941"]

You said yourself: "yin chi cannot be felt till yin and yang are brought together, as the human consciousness itself is pure yang energy, and yin energy can only be felt indirectly by the interactions it causes with the yang chi of your consciousness until both yin and yang energy have been brought together."

 

If there's yang chi, there will be yin chi. Just as there is static electricity in the sky, the chi field will find you no matter where you are. The interactions of energy between the earth and sky are constant. It only makes sense that yin and yang chi fields are everywhere.

/quote]

 

Just because there is water in the desert doesn't mean you will necessarily be drinking any of it.

 

You will absorb an equal amount of yin chi if grounded during meditation, if ungrounded during meditation you won't.

 

Students were not taught to go poke their fingers in the ground or sit on the dirt AFTER meditation, that is not what was taught. Were it that simple that's what they would have been instructed to do.

 

You also can't get yin energy while ungrounded that means sitting on insulating materials sitting on the ground or up in the sky in an airplane.

 

I don't care what your other teacher has to say about it.

 

If he thinks this is the case he is obviously not talking about the same thing mo pai is.

 

End of discussion.

 

 

 

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quote name="dawei" post="498491" timestamp="1385231656"]

 

If its that important, just start your own thread and say it once instead of in 1000 threads over and over. You make your distinction and leave it at that.

 

This is about S-M relation to martial arts. Not YOUR definitions nor Mo Pai definitions.

 

P.S. When they told you to 'consolidate', they did not mean this game you are playing now with mile long posts. Let's apply some common sense...

 

Like this would be common sense: Lock this thread to stop this nonsense

/quote]

 

 

The claim is being made that yin chi is the same for all systems.

 

The claim is being made that yin chi can be felt in a waking state of consciousness.

 

The claim is being made that yin chi can be absorbed ungrounded in an airplane.

 

All of these are false.

 

Now perhaps in the context of SM yin chi does those things, but it most certainly cannot be the same thing mo pai is describing as yin chi.

 

As to consolidating posts, I am not sure what other option there is. I was told to combine all my posts in a thread together not to address things point by point. So that's what I am doing till some admin says otherwise.

 

 

 

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quote name="Harmonious Emptiness" post="498472" timestamp="1385229818"]

MPG, I don't think you're debating whether Stillness-Movement has any benefit whatsoever to martial application, which is what this thread is about.

 

I've created a new thread "Yin chi 3." This topic will be better placed over there. Unless you're trying to purge yourself of TTB by being banned permanently, in which case, you might as well continue reposting the same unrelated mega posts.

/quote]

Well Harmonious Emptiness if you will go back to post 49:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32412-can-the-practice-of-stillness-movement-add-to-your-martial-arts-ability/page-4#entry498139

 

 

Ya Mu's blog post on the nature of yin chi was brought into this discussion, and several before that have asked question about yin and yang chi.

 

 

This is something that is very important, as in this post he is claiming verbatim he claiming every energy all schools call yin energy is the same.

 

 

I am pointing out by definition this cannot be true.

 

 

If this discussion isn't appropriate then the thread needs to be split and all the posts about yin and yang chi from everyone green tiger, surfing buddha, johnc, myself need to be moved to that thread.

 

As to trying to purge myself, no that's not my intention.

 

I was told to combine my posts, so that's what I am doing.

 

You guy's don't like many small replies, you don't like one big reply.

 

I think you you guys should make up your minds on what it is you want to complain about.

 

This is an issue that is extremely important to me.

 

 

 

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quote name="h.uriahr" post="498285" timestamp="1385180161"]

Wow. Kosta pretty much nails it and ends the whole stupid yin debate. Wow. We can drop the whole yin bullshit argument and let this thread stay on topic.

/quote]

 

 

What on earth are you talking about?

 

 

 

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quote name="dawei" post="498423" timestamp="1385225650"]

JC said he was not a daoist... I would thus venture to say that he would not make claims about whether daoist systems could do things or achieve things differently than how his school/system did. I think he would rise above thinking his school is exclusively doing what no other can. Of course,what he says is how his school/system understands it but it does not mean he thinks all others are wrong.

/quote]

 

 

 

 

What is known:

 

Mo pai defines yin chi as an energy that comes from the earth itself, and requires being electrically grounded during meditation to absorb it.

 

It cannot be felt till yin and yang are brought together, as our minds are yang energy only, it can only be felt as the indirect interaction created between the two.

 

 

So things like flying in an airplane and absorbing yin chi sitting on a plastic seat and being able to feel yin chi are not possible.

 

This is not an opinion, this is how it is being defined.

 

 

Now I will give you that SM may be working with something, what I don't know.

 

If it is perceptible in normal awareness, and can be gathered 30,000 feet up in an air plane ungrounded on a plastic seat however it cannot by definition be the same thing mo pai is discussing.

 

That's how it is.

 

This is not an opinion.

 

 

___________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

quote name="Harmonious Emptiness" post="498200" timestamp="1385155783"]

This thread is not about comparisons between Stillness-Movement and Mo Pai, however,

 

an interesting thing is said by Kostas (author of "Magus of Java") in that interview (33 minutes in) which will hopefully end that debate (which obviously must take place in another thread and not be continued in this one)

 

Kostas:

"Yin chi is not something you put in (with effort), it sort of follows the Yang chi wherever it goes. So, when you generate Yang chi, if you sit down, then automatically you will pull in Yin chi because it wants to be in equal amount wherever the Yang chi is. There are schools that train in the development of Yin chi itself. I don't know anything about that. My training was in both (yang and yin chi training), but one rose as a consequence of the other. You don't deliberately say "I'm going to pull in yin chi now." It just happens. There are ways to do that, but I can't understand why anybody would want to."

 

So!

 

If you cultivate Yang chi, then according to Kostas, if you just simply "sit down" Yin chi will "automatically" join you as it "wants to be in equal amount wherever Yang chi is." Just sit down, and it automatically joins and settles with the yang chi.

 

Oh man, that was like (soy) milk after peanut butter.. Balance. I feel balance...

/quote]

 

 

 

 

If you sit on a grounded surface, yin chi will automatically be gathered while you gather yang. Neither Jim nor Kosta were taught to meditate ungrounded THEN go sit on a grounded surface to compensate.

 

 

 

 

quote]

 

 

32:55

 

Green Meadow: When developing Yin force in meditation do you sense it or feel it in your hara like in the solar plexus as an expansion?

 

 

Kosta: No. It's not in the solar plexus, and it's not anywhere in any of the center energetic cords of the body its in fact all around. It's not something that you put in it sort of follows the yang chi wherever it goes, so when you generate yang chi if you sit down then you automatically pull in yin chi as it wants to be in equal amount wherever the yang chi is, there are schools that train in the development of yin chi itself, I don't know anything about that.

 

 

Green Meadow: So did your training include both, or just the yang?

 

 

Kosta: My training included both yes.

 

 

Green Meadow: OK Thank you.

 

 

Kosta: One rose as a consequence of the other, you don't deliberately say that "oh I am going to pull in yin chi now" it just happens.

 

 

Green Meadow: OK

 

 

 

Kosta: I mean there are ways to do that but I can't understand why one would want to.

 

 

Green Meadow: (nervous laugh) Yes.(nervous laugh) Thank you.

 

 

 

Kosta: Welcome.

 

 

 

 

 

/quote]

 

 

 

Neither Kosta nor Jim were taught to go do meditation on an ungrounded surface then go sit out on the dirt to compensate.

 

What was taught was that yin chi cannot be felt till yin and yang are brought together, as the human consciousness itself is pure yang energy, and yin energy can only be felt indirectly by the interactions it causes with the yang chi of your consciousness until both yin and yang energy have been brought together.

 

I was told verbatim should I attempt to meditate ungrounded that that time spend in ungrounded meditation would need to be repeated in full while grounded as I would develop incorrectly.

 

Yin chi is gathered in meditation while grounded, it is not gathered while ungrounded, and you can't go poke your finger in the dirt or sit on the ground afterward and compensate that is not what was taught.

 

You also cannot gather yin chi on an airplane ungrounded mid flight.

 

 

 

quote]

Where does yin chi come from? Andreas asked.

 

From the earth. The yin comes from the earth. It is some kind of field phenomenon that feeds our lifeforce. It can be blocked by insulators. For example, if you have a carpet made from synthetic materials in your house, the yin chi cannot pass through it. Thats not so good for your health. The yin chi enters the body through an acupuncture point that we call hui yin, he added. Its located between the urinary tract and the anus.

 

Danaos, Kosta The Magus of Java (p. 104).

/quote]

 

 

 

quote]

He explained to me, Your yin comes from the earth and you need to be connected to it. He said I have to sit outside on the ground. This was somewhat troubling because where I live it snows about twice a year and rains a lot, so while he was telling me this I was trying to figure how I was going to be able to do it. He also told me yang comes from the air and enters the energy point on the top of your head. And it needs to be equally balanced with my yin which enters another energy point at the area of your perineum.

 

McMillan, Jim Seeking the Master of Mo Pai (p. 178).

/quote]

 

 

 

 

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quote name="Brian" post="498171" timestamp="1385150330"]

 

Have you listened to Kostas's interview, MPG?

 

http://timemonkradio.com/threads/kostas-danaos-time-monk-radio-network-presents-july-30th-2011.34/

/quote]

 

 

Yes.

 

 

 

 

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quote name="dawei" post="498158" timestamp="1385147964"]

Then it is a reconciliation of phrases, meanings, words, systems...

 

But my general comment remains. Instead of just saying black and white, there is much gray area to explore.

/quote]

 

 

Your comment is incorrect. This is very much black and white, there is zero gray area to explore.

 

 

Let me give you an example:

 

 

System A defines subject Z as:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

System B defines subject Z as:

 

 

 

 

System A states that it's subject Z is the same one system B refers to.

 

 

 

 

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quote name="dawei" post="498151" timestamp="1385147521"]

OR.... there is yet another explanation...

 

One system cannot see inside another system.

 

One systems 'way' is not necessarily at the exclusion of all the systems in the entire world...

/quote]

 

 

That is not the case as the energy precisely and accurately defined by mo pai as yin chi, does not have the same characteristics as the energy he is describing as yin chi.

 

What they describe isn't the same, as much as you would like it to be.

 

 

 

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quote name="surfingbudda" post="498139" timestamp="1385145973"]

 

 

Heres a cool explanation Michael blogged about earth chi as seen from the stillness movement perspective:

http://qigongamerica.blogspot.com/

 

He's a good guy, but he makes blanket statements like:

 

 

 

 

 

 

quote]

First off there is not a different Earth Qi from one system to the next.

 

In essence, we are all speaking of the same thing.

/quote]

 

 

 

 

quote]

Next I would say that Earth Qi most definitely unquestionably absolutely without a doubt CAN be felt and/or experienced.

/quote]

 

 

 

This stands in direct contradiction to the very definition of yin chi as defined in mo pai.

 

 

 

 

 

No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

So either he is wrong, or JC and the mo pai school is.

 

I think the most likely scenario is that what he describes as earth or yin energy isn't the same thing JC and the mo pai school call yin energy.

 

He is describing something else altogether.

 

[xor]

This is... unreadable to be honest.

[Vitalii]

This is... unreadable to be honest.

 

agree,

I think that moderators should be more stringent, then we can avoid many of useless posts and threads.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

When they say consolidate your posts, they mean consolidate your new posts, not to put all your posts from the thread in one post. when there are new replies, reply to them in one post. That's it.

 

As for pitting this thread -- it seems like it will pop up again. I'd prefer to have some degree of rectification before putting in with the rest. At least the conversation can be directed here again. There's no insults either, so I don't really see the need to put it in the pit yet.

 

 

MPG, as for feeling through the yang chi -- that would be feeling. It would be feeling it enough to know that it's there. Whether I hear someone through the air between us or through a telephone, I still hear them. I don't need to say "I heard the telephone tell me what they said" anymore than it needs to be said the yang chi feels it and I feel yang chi. Something is felt, known, etc..

[Harmonious Emptiness]

"Not until yin and yang are brought together can yin energy be directly perceived as our consciousness itself is 100% pure yang energy."

 

Wouldn't that be enough yang energy to feel the yin energy? 100% of our consciousness? Keeping in mind our consciousness in not limited to mind, there is also body consciousness (not as in being conscious of the body, but the consciousness that is in the body itself), energy body consciousness, etc., etc.,?

Edited November 24, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[xor]

MPG, I hope you're doing this as a joke...

Edited November 24, 2013 by xor